Kavik Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) One thing I'm noticing on the tug DVD - most of the dogs are so forgiving! Even if the handlers are nervous/unsure/not playing with them enthusiastically or just poor handling or the session goes on too long, the dogs will still tug, and all but one that I saw would tug with Michael. If I am not 100% there with Kaos (enthusiastic/into the playing) he will not do it. Edited January 25, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Great thread Kavik :) Does anyone have suggestions on how to introduce tug in a new environment? We do tug in short bursts at home - a tug game won't go on for more than 5-7 seconds before she releases and we start the chase and tug all over again (I usually don't do more than 3-4 reps). But I've found that I can't build the same drive once we step outside the house/yard into a new space. For example, Ziva will sometimes chase the tug at a conformation show, but won't bite down and tug. Or she'll just be totally disinterested. I've been thinking about using opposition reflex (e.g. the Push Back & Jam game by Susan Garrett) to try and build interest & drive - any other suggestions? I have a flirt pole that she LOVES but I don't think I could bring that out to use at a conformation show - she's not reliable off lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Mine won't tug out of the yard. What I am doing is working on tugging around distractions in the yard - esp ones that create DWDH like food and other toys (and other people). And making sure that I am 100% sure that every time I go out to tug he will do it enthusiastically. Once I have that I will go out the front gate and tug there, and hopefully then go to park etc. PB&J would be a great one to do - one of Kaos's favourites The big thing I think will be not to ever let him get away with not tugging when I want him to, and for me this means small steps in an environment where I know I can get him to tug first, before trying to take it on the road where I know he will expect to get other rewards like food or his squeaky. Eg I would like to be able to have him tug while OH holds and throws his favourite squeaky in the air before I take it on the road. I am also going to try premacking tugging with other favourite activities. So tug at the start of every training session, before walks and eventually before his dinner (am trying to see how I can break that one down into managable DWDH first rather than the whole thing all at once, which I think will end up being too much). And I am liking Michael's suggestion of not to bring the toy out until the dog is paying attention rather than bring the toy out and try to entice a tug. Confidence that the dog will tug is a big point with whether we have success I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Oooh - nice suggestions - I hadn't thought of trying to add distraction in my own yard and hiding the toy and bringing it out when she gives me attention (I use the "ready" cue - so when I say "ready", she knows we're about to have the most fun ever). We have big issues with DWDH :laugh: so much to the point that Ziva is now on lead, even when inside, so that when I say "come" she has to. Ziva loves playing Smoke Ya as well - perhaps I can start with Smoke Ya and then transition that into tug. It's the only game where she barks as she's playing - quite cute to see :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 can you explain what "smoke ya" is stonecutter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am only adding 'ready' when he is giving me attention. We only recently got Smoke Ya going properly (yay for getting it to work!) - but I am using food at the moment for this game. I think if I can get it to - before we do anything else he will give me attention and we tug - then we are ready! The good thing about adding distractions in the yard is that you have more control over the environment. His favourite toy and before dinner are going to be a challenge. I can have his favourite toy in a clear container and while he is tugging take the lid off and he will tug, though sometimes he will stop but I can get him tugging again around it. Haven't tried putting my hand in or trying to pick up the toy yet. I can also get him to tug around his empty food bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Kavik, Any videoing over the weekend? I enjoyed all the posts especially Dasha's. Some dogs are simply not tuggers. Working labrador breeders like dogs who tug naturally - seemingly without any training. The dogs could not care about different locales, surfaces, noise - they are not distracted. Desire is paramount! (And health obviously tooooooooooo, especially those ear marked for breeding). What are your plans for your dog? How old is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Kavik and others, Working lab trainers and breeders for sniffer programs enjoy dogs who carry items? Do your dogs carry items,A LOT??? Do your dogs play tug together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hi Lablover Haven't got any video yet. Will see if I can between 2 kids and not always willing OH :laugh: For me - plans for dog are agility (we are competing at Excellent level at the moment). Kaos turns 6 in March. Carry items - not really. Loves to carry around his favourite fetch toy though. Tug with other dogs - I don't tend to leave toys out with them. Diesel carries stuff around more than the others and he is the one who will not tug at all :laugh: Obviously a natural tugger who doesn't get distracted is ideal. As many in this thread have pointed out, this is probably unlikely to occur in Kelpies, this is not a trait that Working Kelpie breeders look for, they concentrate on how the dog is on sheep. So I am going to have to work for it. Malinois, on the other hand :laugh: now bred primarily for manwork/bitesports, so tugging is paramount. Quite obvious in the DVD, in that they were happy to tug when the handling was not very good in a distracting environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Is your timing and reading of your dog excellent? ie having him keen playing tug, before he loses interest? On multiple occasions? Does he tremble in excitement, froth at the mouth, vocalise in excitement before training? He is generally an active dog? Some say painful to live with -meanies!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Timing and reading of dog is pretty good - he will keenly tug. He doesn't froth at the mouth :laugh: Sometimes vocalises. Yes he is an active dog that some think is a pain to live with :laugh: I wouldn't have him any other way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 He sounds great. He just does not like tug. He is an active dog, who is performing at a level you wish to achieve...so what is the problem? Which area of performance do you feel is lacking...to be worried about him not wanting to play and/or play tug - be positively reinforced???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I have some issues with him running out of the ring at trials. HAve had a few compliance issues with start lines too, though those have gotten better. Last year was more difficult because I had to bring a baby with me, so my time was a bit divided. He started running off to visit the pram. So there are times when he is choosing not to work/play with me. Hoping that tug/engagement work will help to improve that bond. I do feel it has improved a lot, both with tug and with the Recallers course I have done. Little bugger, I can hear him shredding his bedding! Although we did 2 training sessions and a walk it was very wet today so not as much active stuff as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Re tugging in new environments, a couple of things worked for me. I worked out what Zig's favourite tug toy was and then once he was tugging like a lunatic with that one at home I introduced a second tug. Only tugged with the 2nd favourite toy at home and hid the favourite toy in my training bag. I didn't ask him to tug outside the house but let him see it "accidentally" in the bag. Built his frustration until he was sticking his head in the bag trying to "steal" it. Then we would have a quick tug and revert to food training. This way, if he was stressed by something I wasn't poisoning the tug cue. Hope that makes sense :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Kavik and others, Working lab trainers and breeders for sniffer programs enjoy dogs who carry items? Do your dogs carry items,A LOT??? Do your dogs play tug together? My lab does all of this. LOVES carrying around items in her mouth, loves playing tug with other dogs and myself. She actually really loves to be chased carrying a toy. She will bring me a toy/sock/stick (whatever naughtiness she can find lol) and try to initiate a game of tug by shoving the item in my lap, near my hand etc. But I would say she prefers food over tugging. She is food obsessed. Can you train that out of labs :laugh: Edited January 25, 2012 by aussielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 can you explain what "smoke ya" is stonecutter? In essence, it's a chasing game where you get something between you and the dog (I've use a pop up tent, dining table, lounge), wait until your dog is distracted and then run away. You want them to chase you for a treat or tug. Eventually you cue this - if Ziva is near me and I say "smoke ya", she knows I'm going to run away and she has to chase me for tug/treat. It was a game in the Susan Garrett recalled course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 This was posted elsewhere - a free Oct 2011 issue of Clean Run and I opened it and discovered an article on tugging. Might be worth a read I had a quick glance of it earlier. http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3084 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Having trouble with my 14 week old chewing on the tug, she very rarely gets a good hold and actually tugs. She will get the toy anywhere we go, will grab anything I present her with, and with other dogs around, but she kinda just stands around on chews on it... Hangs on if I move it around, but I want her to do the moving! Will she grow out of this or should I do something to encourage a full bite? What do I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Could it be a teething thing at that age? We didn't tug much until Ziva got her full adult teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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