Flaves Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) .... you come on a forum that supports the practice of ethical breeding and does not support the practice of BYB Yep the forum supports it, does not mean all members practice it To the OP, if you dont like the conditions dont purchase the dog. Go to a different breeder and get your pet. OR be honest with the breeder and say you would like to breed and why, you will either be allowed to purchase a pup or not. Edited January 22, 2012 by Flaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I realise there's a certain divide between pro and anti desexing proponents but unless there are laws in place that say otherwise, it's really up to individual owners if their dog is entire or not. Yes, this is true but what are the chances of a dog remaining entire for 5/6 years and even having a clue about mating sucessfully at that one effort at that late stage?? This is what would happen if he wasn't to be used by the orginal breeder and just kept "to sire one litter" for the OP. I thought your objection was leaving a family pet undesexed but it's actually that you're concerned the dog won't know how to have sex? I know it sounds silly but if he isn't used for 5/6 years he could have "issues". Some young studs need "help and guidence" until they become experienced. Or, he could be "a natural'. ;) But it also leaves him open to health issues like testicular cancer. Isn't this what studmasters are for? And on the cancer front, it isn't just family pets who get it, so I'm not sure what the difference is between a breeder's stud dog and a family dog. Both undesexed, both open to testicular cancer, no? Wouldn't most Studmaster prefer to start the Male well before 5/6 years? Isn't this what the breeder had in mind when making her offer to 'use' the dog for stud purposes? But the OP only wanted the dog used for the one litter didn't she and wasn't comforable with the other offer? Isn't the risk of testicular cancer increased if the dog isn't being used? Could be an Old Wives tale, maybe? Anyway, I just didn't think it was worth keeping a dog entire for 5/6 years on the off chance he might be mated for a litter of which one pup would go to the dogs owner? But then perhaps the OP had not intended to desex her male dog in the first place so the option would always be available to her. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oskar & Zsa Zsa Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I'm a little embarrased to be part of a forum where members can be so callous, vehement and at the end of the day ignorant. The OP has explained their comments and yet those who jumped to conclusions have made no apologies. Just shameful. To the OP, don't judge the majority by some minority comments. Most in here are fair and reasonable human beings. Yet again, others with the benefit of knowledge have become sanctimonious, self righteous and aggressive. I think you have been incredibly level in your replies to them. I personally would have made it very clear what I thought. I hope things work out with your pup and that you stick around so you can share some of your previous dog experience for us all to learn from and also take in anything else from some of the very knowledgeable people in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Wouldn't most Studmaster prefer to start the Male well before 5/6 years? Isn't this what the breeder had in mind when making her offer to 'use' the dog for stud purposes? But the OP only wanted the dog used for the one litter didn't she and wasn't comforable with the other offer? Isn't the risk of testicular cancer increased if the dog isn't being used? Could be an Old Wives tale, maybe? Anyway, I just didn't think it was worth keeping a dog entire for 5/6 years on the off chance he might be mated for a litter of which one pup would go to the dogs owner? But then perhaps the OP had not intended to desex her male dog in the first place so the option would always be available to her. Who knows. 5/6 years is the prime of a dogs life and at that age he should be able to serve a bitch for the first time. 2 dogs that I know of weren't use for the first time till well after that age, (1 was 9 and the other 10) for different reasons and both had no problems with the deed or with siring healthy pups. A dog that has problems at 5/6 would probably have the same problems at 2. How many show dogs are kept entire with little or no chance they will be bred from? I don't think using a dog lessens the risk of testicular cancer which is quite low anyway and not all lumps on testis are cancer even though the common practice is to castrate when a lump is found rather than do tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I'm a little embarrased to be part of a forum where members can be so callous, vehement and at the end of the day ignorant. The OP has explained their comments and yet those who jumped to conclusions have made no apologies. Just shameful. To the OP, don't judge the majority by some minority comments. Most in here are fair and reasonable human beings. Yet again, others with the benefit of knowledge have become sanctimonious, self righteous and aggressive. I think you have been incredibly level in your replies to them. I personally would have made it very clear what I thought. I hope things work out with your pup and that you stick around so you can share some of your previous dog experience for us all to learn from and also take in anything else from some of the very knowledgeable people in here. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Isn't this what studmasters are for? And on the cancer front, it isn't just family pets who get it, so I'm not sure what the difference is between a breeder's stud dog and a family dog. Both undesexed, both open to testicular cancer, no? Wouldn't most Studmaster prefer to start the Male well before 5/6 years? Isn't this what the breeder had in mind when making her offer to 'use' the dog for stud purposes? But the OP only wanted the dog used for the one litter didn't she and wasn't comforable with the other offer? Isn't the risk of testicular cancer increased if the dog isn't being used? Could be an Old Wives tale, maybe? Anyway, I just didn't think it was worth keeping a dog entire for 5/6 years on the off chance he might be mated for a litter of which one pup would go to the dogs owner? But then perhaps the OP had not intended to desex her male dog in the first place so the option would always be available to her. Who knows. On the stud front, you'd need to ask a breeder but as long as the semen's viable, I don't see why a stud dog can't be older. As a caveat to that, my own dog's sire was 13 or 14 when he was used. Three pups, two died last year aged fifteen and Grumpy turned sixteen today. Guess there was nothing wrong with those genes. No idea on the testicular cancer. Grumpy wasn't desexed until he was eight. As to the worth, again, up to the individual owner. No one's business but hers unless it's against a local bylaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I'm a little embarrased to be part of a forum where members can be so callous, vehement and at the end of the day ignorant. The OP has explained their comments and yet those who jumped to conclusions have made no apologies. Just shameful. To the OP, don't judge the majority by some minority comments. Most in here are fair and reasonable human beings. Yet again, others with the benefit of knowledge have become sanctimonious, self righteous and aggressive. I think you have been incredibly level in your replies to them. I personally would have made it very clear what I thought. I hope things work out with your pup and that you stick around so you can share some of your previous dog experience for us all to learn from and also take in anything else from some of the very knowledgeable people in here. +2 I went to the profiles of some of the worst comments in this thread and many of the ppl saying these awful things are only my age or younger, yet people with more level headed comments have probably been breeding over twice as long as these self righteous knowit alls. I hope these commenters are in the minority otherwise what a disgusting new age of breeders these ppl are going to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I went to the profiles of some of the worst comments in this thread and many of the ppl saying these awful things are only my age or younger, yet people with more level headed comments have probably been breeding over twice as long as these self righteous knowit alls. I hope these commenters are in the minority otherwise what a disgusting new age of breeders these ppl are going to be. wow very judgemental comments. You are doing the very thing you are saying for others not to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I went to the profiles of some of the worst comments in this thread and many of the ppl saying these awful things are only my age or younger, yet people with more level headed comments have probably been breeding over twice as long as these self righteous knowit alls. I hope these commenters are in the minority otherwise what a disgusting new age of breeders these ppl are going to be. wow very judgemental comments. You are doing the very thing you are saying for others not to do. I am saying how judgemental many of the young posters were to the OP when she simply asked a question. I believe what was said is disgusting and a complete turn off to ppl who visit this site and see the judgemental attitude these ppl have to newbies or uneducated ppl who simply want info. Their manner is disgusting, not many ppl were nice, politeness can go along way, i was never unpolite or accusing to the op, only the ppl who jumped down her throat ahem ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I went to the profiles of some of the worst comments in this thread and many of the ppl saying these awful things are only my age or younger, yet people with more level headed comments have probably been breeding over twice as long as these self righteous knowit alls. I hope these commenters are in the minority otherwise what a disgusting new age of breeders these ppl are going to be. wow very judgemental comments. You are doing the very thing you are saying for others not to do. I am saying how judgemental many of the young posters were to the OP when she simply asked a question. I believe what was said is disgusting and a complete turn off to ppl who visit this site and see the judgemental attitude these ppl have to newbies or uneducated ppl who simply want info. Their manner is disgusting, not many ppl were nice, politeness can go along way, i was never unpolite or accusing to the op, only the ppl who jumped down her throat ahem ;) weren't you taught two wrongs don't make a right? You are calling people self righteous know it alls, you are accusing a certain age group, your comments can also being read by visitors to the forum, but it's ok for you to name call etc cause you are not applying it to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I went to the profiles of some of the worst comments in this thread and many of the ppl saying these awful things are only my age or younger, yet people with more level headed comments have probably been breeding over twice as long as these self righteous knowit alls. I hope these commenters are in the minority otherwise what a disgusting new age of breeders these ppl are going to be. wow very judgemental comments. You are doing the very thing you are saying for others not to do. I am saying how judgemental many of the young posters were to the OP when she simply asked a question. I believe what was said is disgusting and a complete turn off to ppl who visit this site and see the judgemental attitude these ppl have to newbies or uneducated ppl who simply want info. Their manner is disgusting, not many ppl were nice, politeness can go along way, i was never unpolite or accusing to the op, only the ppl who jumped down her throat ahem ;) weren't you taught two wrongs don't make a right? You are calling people self righteous know it alls, you are accusing a certain age group, your comments can also being read by visitors to the forum, but it's ok for you to name call etc cause you are not applying it to the OP. Sorry edit to say your comment to the OP was not nice either and no you are not in my age group. I am not the only poster who has told others their manner in this post was disgusting (or the first to call the others self rightous)and to get off thier high horse, yet you continue to pick on me, why is that? Honest q! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I didn't see any other being quite so strong in their wording as you were. People didn't like what was posted but they didn't call the writers names, not like you, that I saw. If they did my words also apply to them. I find it amusing how some people complain about rudeness etc from other posters but are every bit as bad as the people they are complaining about. The original post was every bit the person looking to byb. It took a few pages before she came back to clarify it. As you say, lots of people read posts here. If everyone went back to edit their posts when the original one went unedited it would give the impression people were supporting the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Isn't this what studmasters are for? And on the cancer front, it isn't just family pets who get it, so I'm not sure what the difference is between a breeder's stud dog and a family dog. Both undesexed, both open to testicular cancer, no? Wouldn't most Studmaster prefer to start the Male well before 5/6 years? Isn't this what the breeder had in mind when making her offer to 'use' the dog for stud purposes? But the OP only wanted the dog used for the one litter didn't she and wasn't comforable with the other offer? Isn't the risk of testicular cancer increased if the dog isn't being used? Could be an Old Wives tale, maybe? Anyway, I just didn't think it was worth keeping a dog entire for 5/6 years on the off chance he might be mated for a litter of which one pup would go to the dogs owner? But then perhaps the OP had not intended to desex her male dog in the first place so the option would always be available to her. Who knows. On the stud front, you'd need to ask a breeder but as long as the semen's viable, I don't see why a stud dog can't be older. As a caveat to that, my own dog's sire was 13 or 14 when he was used. Three pups, two died last year aged fifteen and Grumpy turned sixteen today. Guess there was nothing wrong with those genes. No idea on the testicular cancer. Grumpy wasn't desexed until he was eight. As to the worth, again, up to the individual owner. No one's business but hers unless it's against a local bylaw. But I'm sure it wasn't your dog's sires first attempt at 13 or 14...was it? Remember the OP wanted to use this dog only for her one pup/litter. It was the breeders suggestion to use him at other times (be he good enough) and for the owner to get a commission. That offer was rejected. Just makes me glad I use a desexing agreement with my puppies and ALL is clear before they are allocated. Sure I know it's worth zilch as a legal document but it makes intentions clear from the onset, the new buyers sign it, I sign it and it is a written document in which I make a pledge to refund them $100 if they present a Vets desexing certificate at 6 months of age and it seems incentive enough for those who "don't want to breed but want just one litter". It makes people think about what it is they want from their dog. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to keep their dog entire if they are resposible pet owners, with the correct checks and balances in place (training, adequate fencing etc.) and the breed is not of a type that an entire male may prove unsuitable as a family pet. (there are more than a few breeds who fit this category and are best left to the experienced to raise and train). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I'm confused as to what these "disgusting things" said actually were? All I can see is an OP which sounded like a BYB (something that is not supported here -check out the forum rules) and comments directed at the fact this is not the correct way to do things. Sure, the OP clarified but is everyone supposed to edit their posts? Can someone tell me what was so disgustuing please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I didn't see any other being quite so strong in their wording as you were. People didn't like what was posted but they didn't call the writers names, not like you, that I saw. If they did my words also apply to them. I find it amusing how some people complain about rudeness etc from other posters but are every bit as bad as the people they are complaining about. The original post was every bit the person looking to byb. It took a few pages before she came back to clarify it. As you say, lots of people read posts here. If everyone went back to edit their posts when the original one went unedited it would give the impression people were supporting the OP. Then you didnt look very closely as the wording i used was copied from the post that i quoted from earlier in the day :) This off topic convo is just going round and round in circles and i don't think we should waste anymore of our time with it. It seems the OP got the info she needed so i hope her situation works out for her. I am sure we will butt heads again when we disagree in another post in the future :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can people please be a little bit nicer when attempting to educate new forum members, tearing people to shreds and being condescending doesn't help. I agree........Where's the like button Me three. Sometimes people have trouble articulating exactly what they're trying to say as it appears the OP has. When I first looked at PB dogs after some of the "conditions" that were put on the table I almost walked away - the most distasteful was $2000 for a bitch who remain soley in the owners name for minimum of 4yrs and they had the privlidge of up to 3 litters while I raised, cared, titled (show) - this was not Aussies BTW! Initially it was a bit difficult to grasp that people wanted to charge full price and yet wanted to have litters back or unlimited studs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Sometimes people have trouble articulating exactly what they're trying to say as it appears the OP has. When I first looked at PB dogs after some of the "conditions" that were put on the table I almost walked away - the most distasteful was $2000 for a bitch who remain soley in the owners name for minimum of 4yrs and they had the privlidge of up to 3 litters while I raised, cared, titled (show) - this was not Aussies BTW! Initially it was a bit difficult to grasp that people wanted to charge full price and yet wanted to have litters back or unlimited studs! Precisely the sort of conditions why I won't co-own. The breeder can trust me or not when it comes to owning a dog and I'm not there just to look after their dog for them. A dog lives with me, it's my dog and I have the say over what the dog does and where it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mille Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Sometimes people have trouble articulating exactly what they're trying to say as it appears the OP has. When I first looked at PB dogs after some of the "conditions" that were put on the table I almost walked away - the most distasteful was $2000 for a bitch who remain soley in the owners name for minimum of 4yrs and they had the privlidge of up to 3 litters while I raised, cared, titled (show) - this was not Aussies BTW! Initially it was a bit difficult to grasp that people wanted to charge full price and yet wanted to have litters back or unlimited studs! Precisely the sort of conditions why I won't co-own. The breeder can trust me or not when it comes to owning a dog and I'm not there just to look after their dog for them. A dog lives with me, it's my dog and I have the say over what the dog does and where it goes. I agree. You buy the dog - its your dog. You sell the dog - its not your dog. Edited January 23, 2012 by Mille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I agree. You buy the dog - its your dog. You sell the dog - its not your dog. I'm not against co-ownership at all I just don't agree with unreasonable terms like charging full price for a dog but putting conditions on it! I think if you want to add restrictions then the price goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The OP just sounds like a normal member of the general public. Most people would probably say it would be nice to have pups from their dog. Gawd I had half my last puppy class saying it. It is through lack of knowledge but any evil intent. You just explain the health issues and the joys of living with entire animals. Most bolt to the vet to get the animal desexed. Most people wouldn't understand the whole limited register bit either. I am not convinced about the limit register myself. Honestly though this is why people just think it is too hard and go buy a pup from a petshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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