I Feel Like I' M Being Manipulated ......

[espinay2]

But pewithers,this is not allowed not every dog in a litter should be on the main register, its not for idiot proofing, its an indicator that the pup is NOT show and therefore NOT breeding quality.

Doesn't mean it isn't a quality pet and nice example of its breed.

There are breeders that put everything on the main register, and that to me indicates they have little idea.

fifi

But Maremma are under-represented in the show ring so there is less to compare.

The show quality is improving. At least I hope it is so lets not go there.

But my two dogs are titled and justifiably so.

I don't want to sound arrogant but which one of their pups was not show or breeding quality?

What I will say is that dogs were chosen for show and breed homes because they were superior to the others.

But that means they were an improvement on their parents not that the others were inferior to their parents.

All worthy of the main register.

Lets face it we're not talking hundreds even dozens of dogs here.

I don't want to sound rude, but in the interest of our objectives - To Improve the Breed - If you are producing dogs that obviously have to go on the Limited Register then -- hello !!!!

Some difference I would have thought.

Regards

Px

Ummm. I would suggest a few books for you to read.

One is 'Structure in Action' by Pat Hastings (and also her 'Puppy Puzzle' video). Interesting that Pat herself has stated in her seminars that in all the litters she has assessed (hundreds and hundreds of them) she has only in her life seen two litters which were even across the board and all pups being of 'show potential'. This is a rare rare thing!!

The other I suggest is 'Reaching for the Stars' by by Mary Roslin Williams who discusses a system of constant assessment as well as identification of faults and failings in dogs.

Frankly, I don't know ANY experienced or top breeder past or present who would claim to have all pups in a litter to be show and breeding potential.

Perhaps you haven't got your eye in to 'see' the faults and failings yet? It does take practice to see the differences and subtleties that can make a big difference in a breed.

Frankly, I have in the past titled dogs that I would never breed with (and didn't) so the fact that a dog of a breed with only a small number competing out there gains its title is not always a good yardstick of quality. A better yardstick show-wise perhaps (if you want to use shows as a yardstick) is how they do under breed specialist judges, at breed specialties, shows where a larger number of the breed is entered and maybe also in the Group and General Specials competition at all breeds shows (though of course we can debate that till the cows come home). This is the competition I would be seeking out.

[Mille]

Dog shows are meant to decide what is 'best' - titles are awarded as proof.

Meant to, I think, is the operative phrase there.

It is the judges' prerogative to withhold if entrants are deemed unworthy.

[Sheridan]

Dog shows are meant to decide what is 'best' - titles are awarded as proof.

Meant to, I think, is the operative phrase there.

It is the judges' prerogative to withhold if entrants are deemed unworthy.

And some dogs don't get shown at all, some of whom are brilliant examples of their breed. I don't want to get into the regular round of 'if you don't show, you're a puppyfarmer' nonsense because that's precisely what that argument is, but showing doesn't indicate brilliant dogs, it indicates what dogs show up. Sometimes they're brilliant dogs.

[smisch]

Dog shows are meant to decide what is 'best' - titles are awarded as proof.

Meant to, I think, is the operative phrase there.

It is the judges' prerogative to withhold if entrants are deemed unworthy.

Yes but then you get to the issues of it being the same people always put up because a judge has no idea what to do with the breed and because a facey person is there they assume theirs is correct.. Not always.. But hey that's just my opinion

[Tralee]

Ummm. I would suggest a few books for you to read.

Interesting that Pat herself has stated in her seminars that in all the litters she has assessed (hundreds and hundreds of them) she has only in her life seen two litters which were even across the board and all pups being of 'show potential'. This is a rare rare thing!!

The other I suggest is 'Reaching for the Stars' by by Mary Roslin Williams who discusses a system of constant assessment as well as identification of faults and failings in dogs.

Frankly, I don't know ANY experienced or top breeder past or present who would claim to have all pups in a litter to be show and breeding potential.

Perhaps you haven't got your eye in to 'see' the faults and failings yet? It does take practice to see the differences and subtleties that can make a big difference in a breed.

A better yardstick show-wise perhaps (if you want to use shows as a yardstick) is how they do under breed specialist judges, at breed specialties, shows where a larger number of the breed is entered and maybe also in the Group and General Specials competition at all breeds shows (though of course we can debate that till the cows come home). This is the competition I would be seeking out.

Well I think I have acknowledged exactly the points you are making.

If I had two Italian dogs, and I can tell you which two at this point in time I would take, then I would have no issue with using the limited register.

But our scope is - To Improve the Breed - and while I am happy, when I compare my dogs to some others, with what I was ultimately entrusted with when starting out, I can still only work with what I've got.

That I have done and have been in awe of what's been thrown by my two.

Also I have their breeders to vouchsafe for what I have been given.

So, Pat is looking at thousands of dogs, I'd be surprised to learn the number of Maremma in Australia.

We don't have specialty shows and Royals are about the only opportunity to run dogs off against quality competition.

So irrespective of the yardstick, and we must remember that the Maremma is being brought back from the indiscriminate breeding by entrepeuners over decades past who threw their conformation out, we can and do improve on the parents.

However, it is questionable that some dogs are going in that direction.

It is different if you have a BIS Breed.

Then, a limited register makes much more sense.

I just wouldn't put a dog on the Limited Register if it doesn't belong there.

Px

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Yes but then you get to the issues of it being the same people always put up because a judge has no idea what to do with the breed and because a facey person is there they assume theirs is correct.. Not always.. But hey that's just my opinion

Well, I wasn't going to say that is so many words.

But, its not usually a major issue, on a Sunday afternoon, until it becomes obvious that some dogs within a breed are going tragically awry and that those lines will become reinforced and perpetuated by those dogs.

a judge has no idea what to do with the breed

They're only human, and they have preferences as well.

However, in a minority of cases, it is a serious issue and should be sensibly brought to the table for discussion.

But perhaps not here. OT

Px

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tralee

[Mille]

Dog shows are meant to decide what is 'best' - titles are awarded as proof.

Meant to, I think, is the operative phrase there.

It is the judges' prerogative to withhold if entrants are deemed unworthy.

And some dogs don't get shown at all, some of whom are brilliant examples of their breed. I don't want to get into the regular round of 'if you don't show, you're a puppyfarmer' nonsense because that's precisely what that argument is, but showing doesn't indicate brilliant dogs, it indicates what dogs show up. Sometimes they're brilliant dogs.

True, better examples might never be shown but I would choose from a line of winners for a show prospect. The dog show system is not without flaws, like anything human. Shows always produce more sour grapes than sweet ones too.

[Jumabaar]

But pewithers,this is not allowed not every dog in a litter should be on the main register, its not for idiot proofing, its an indicator that the pup is NOT show and therefore NOT breeding quality.

Doesn't mean it isn't a quality pet and nice example of its breed.

There are breeders that put everything on the main register, and that to me indicates they have little idea.

fifi

But Maremma are under-represented in the show ring so there is less to compare.

The show quality is improving. At least I hope it is so lets not go there.

But my two dogs are titled and justifiably so.

I don't want to sound arrogant but which one of their pups was not show or breeding quality?

What I will say is that dogs were chosen for show and breed homes because they were superior to the others.

But that means they were an improvement on their parents not that the others were inferior to their parents.

All worthy of the main register.

Lets face it we're not talking hundreds even dozens of dogs here.

I don't want to sound rude, but in the interest of our objectives - To Improve the Breed - If you are producing dogs that obviously have to go on the Limited Register then -- hello !!!!

Some difference I would have thought.

Regards

Px

Just on that point. It doesn't matter if there is one dog in the ring or 20 they should be being compared to the standard not each other. If individuals put pups that did not conform well to the standard on the limited register, instead of just comparing them to their own sire/dam perhaps the time taken for amazing examples to hit the ring would take a little less time....

That all being said, I think depending on GENETICS it may be necessary for more than the best pups to be bred from to preserve genetic diversity and to maintain certain features. But this works in reverse, some pups should be desexed if they are even slightly less than perfect because there genes are over represented in the population.

Improving on the sire and dam is a personal achievement but I will point out that I have seen in the ring an entire litter. They were ALL an improvement on the Dam but only two deserved to be in the ring. Improving on crap can still leave you slightly less crappy crap......

[Tralee]

But Maremma are under-represented in the show ring so there is less to compare.

The show quality is improving. At least I hope it is so lets not go there.

Lets face it we're not talking hundreds even dozens of dogs here.

I don't want to sound rude, but in the interest of our objectives - To Improve the Breed - If you are producing dogs that obviously have to go on the Limited Register then -- hello !!!!

Some difference I would have thought.

Just on that point. It doesn't matter if there is one dog in the ring or 20 they should be being compared to the standard not each other. If individuals put pups that did not conform well to the standard on the limited register, instead of just comparing them to their own sire/dam perhaps the time taken for amazing examples to hit the ring would take a little less time....

That all being said, I think depending on GENETICS it may be necessary for more than the best pups to be bred from to preserve genetic diversity and to maintain certain features. But this works in reverse, some pups should be desexed if they are even slightly less than perfect because there genes are over represented in the population.

Improving on the sire and dam is a personal achievement but I will point out that I have seen in the ring an entire litter. They were ALL an improvement on the Dam but only two deserved to be in the ring. Improving on crap can still leave you slightly less crappy crap......

That's exactly the approach I have taken.

We need to aim to improve the breed but genetic stock requires using dogs that are 'off' standard.

By that I mean dogs that only vary slightly from the standard, not dogs with eliminating faults.

That's where I am at this point of time.

However, I don't see the Maremma getting BIS here within the next decade whereas it happens and is not uncommon in Europe.

I think the new grand title criteria will go some way to arresting the questionable advancement of some lines of dogs.

Lastly, I was not entrusted with crap and was in the invidious but priveleged position of proving myself with the dogs I was given.

The first I titled with acclaim. The second was sent with trust and with acknowledgement for that achievement.

I know all this sounds like PR but it has taken some time for me to get on the same page as others with wiser heads on calmer shoulders.

I won't get a Maremma to BIS by breeding crap or allowing dogs that should be on the limited register to sully the breeding stocks.

Thanks Jumabaar

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tralee

[oakway]

Dog shows are meant to decide what is 'best' - titles are awarded as proof.

Meant to, I think, is the operative phrase there.

It is the judges' prerogative to withhold if entrants are deemed unworthy.

Yes all judges have the right to with hold a CC but the point is, the dog should not have been their in the first place.

[Tralee]

And some dogs don't get shown at all, some of whom are brilliant examples of their breed. I don't want to get into the regular round of 'if you don't show, you're a puppyfarmer' nonsense because that's precisely what that argument is, but showing doesn't indicate brilliant dogs, it indicates what dogs show up. Sometimes they're brilliant dogs.

True, better examples might never be shown but I would choose from a line of winners for a show prospect. The dog show system is not without flaws, like anything human. Shows always produce more sour grapes than sweet ones too.

True again

There are some dogs (Maremma) working in paddocks who never see a show ring but are absolutely stunning in comparison.

I think that is a good sign.

But true also there can only be one winner per show.

One day, somewhere in Aus it will be a Maremma.

Px

[Sheridan]

It is the judges' prerogative to withhold if entrants are deemed unworthy.

And some dogs don't get shown at all, some of whom are brilliant examples of their breed. I don't want to get into the regular round of 'if you don't show, you're a puppyfarmer' nonsense because that's precisely what that argument is, but showing doesn't indicate brilliant dogs, it indicates what dogs show up. Sometimes they're brilliant dogs.

True, better examples might never be shown but I would choose from a line of winners for a show prospect. The dog show system is not without flaws, like anything human. Shows always produce more sour grapes than sweet ones too.

It may not have anything to do with showing at all. It may be something else entirely, the dog not liking showing, for example. Doesn't mean the dog isn't a good prospect for breeding.

[Florise]

My dogs are availabe to view by anyone at any time. Arawn

Quite a few times now I have seen you advertising your website in your posts. As someone who likes to quote forum rules at everyone else, maybe you should take your own advice.

10. No advertising or self promotion

[Tralee]

My dogs are availabe to view by anyone at any time. Arawn

Quite a few times now I have seen you advertising your website in your posts. As someone who likes to quote forum rules at everyone else, maybe you should take your own advice.

10. No advertising or self promotion

OK

I am not advertising a busines or promoting a website.

Its a Dogz Online website.

However, if the line is blurred I am happy to refine my references to more specific sources.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tralee

[Tralee]

My dogs are availabe to view by anyone at any time. Arawn

Quite a few times now I have seen you advertising your website in your posts. As someone who likes to quote forum rules at everyone else, maybe you should take your own advice.

10. No advertising or self promotion

I should retract my last reply since the General Items over-rule Rule 10 namely:

The primary purpose of this forum is to promote and discuss pure bred dogs (as recognised by the ANKC)...

I have promoted a recognised ANKC pure bred dog breed while in discussion with other forum members.

The discussion being; the perception that the use of the Limited register can be misconstrued, as evidenced by the OP.

No canvasing, no hawking, no PR.

However, I did hold my dogs up as an example.

[Florise]

I have promoted a recognised ANKC pure bred dog breed while in discussion with other forum members.

The discussion being; the perception that the use of the Limited register can be misconstrued, as evidenced by the OP.

What does promoting a pure bred dog breed, specifically YOUR pure bred dogs, have to do with the OP's concerns about taking a dog on breeder's terms?

Why does every topic you get involved in (and there are many) end up going off track and being all about you?