kiwikitten Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yesterday a 12 week old chihuahua puppy died while being desexed prior to going to its new home. Has anyone had any experience in getting exemptions to the Vic mandatory desexing rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I would imagine the puppy wouldn't have been a kilo in weight yet if purebred? Vets should not be giving anaesthetic to a dog under 1 kilo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keetamouse Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Chihuahuas SHOULD NOT, be desexed until at least 6-8 months old, what a shame a puppy has died because of this. What are the laws in Vic on this??? Maree CPR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Sorry I am not familiar with VIC laws regarding this. But that poor little puppy. R.I.P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwikitten Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 The law in Victoria is that all rescue puppies must be desexed before leaving the shelter and going to a home or in to community based foster care. The puppy would probably have just been on or over 1kg - but even that is too small for a breed known to have issues with general anesthesia and problems with regulating their body temperatures (hypothermia is a common post surgery complication). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'm not sure if a letter from the vet would be sufficient, but I suspect this may have also just been a one-off bad luck experience. There is a risk with any animal having an anaesthetic obviously but the risk is really not much greater for young/small animals. Look at the bigger shelters - they desex everything over 900g and they very very rarely have an issue. RIP poor little puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Andrea Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) A vet can certify, that due to medical grounds an animal cannot be desexed at x age for said valid reasons i.e. reasons you have stated........there is a known disposition to issues with this breed if done too early. If I had any concerns thay any of my animals were at risk of complications by being done at said age, I would discuss it with my vet and if they agreed, we would delay it as necessary. If I was concerned about the council implications, I would get the vet to put it in writing. This would be considered a reasonable defence (which are often included in some of the Acts I've read) to a ranger issuing any potential offence/infringement notice even if they did for rehoming an animal at 12 weeks nondesexed or might even be considered an exemption given the vet certification. Either way, this could be contested reasonably and with just grounds if you were considered to be committing an offence. I would never take the risk of any surgery if I had valid medical grounds to delay a procedure. PS. I have no knowledge of the new laws in Victoria however, this is just how I would deal with the situation here if I had to. Sorry for your loss. Very sad indeed. Edited January 19, 2012 by Just Andrea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garnali Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Our vet will not desex any animal under 6 months.. This too has had it's issues.. If the animal was going locally I have booked the desex and collected and had it desexed on the due time.. In the interim I have advised any family that chooses to take a young pup that this is part of the criteria for adopting..(And had them sign agreement) Small faced dogs are high risk.. Pugs,Boxers,British bull dogs ......... ( the list goes on ) and sighthounds are the biggest complications we have seen in the surgery. ( Sight hounds due to muscle/fat ratio do not deal well with some aneasthesia) Also small breeds are prone to complications. Anything under 5 kgs increases the risk factors.. Your vet should have told you this prior to surgery. Sorry for your loss and hope that others can take this into account for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicdrg Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 In Victoria any dog released from a pound must be desexed unless if it is being returned to owner, or to a shelter or to a community foster care network or other group with a Section 84Y. If you have a section 84y with that pound you in fact become the agent for that pound and undertake the responsibilities for vetwork and paperwork going back to the pound. This can apply to any or all dogs or cats - so also covers sick dogs, those with kennel cough, or just where you do not want to use a particular vet to desex a dog. The right for CFCNs to have this Section 84Y is now indisputable and they are mentioned in the amended DAA. However that of course doesn't mean a council/pound has to deal with them. We have certainly had puppies and kittens die in the past from being desexed early at country vets as it was then the only way to save their lives. It is not only the early desexing that places them at risk but their oftened weakened immune system, stress, kc from just being in the pound. Pounds can have foster carers. If this dog came from a pound where there no groups working who could take the dog the pound should be encouraged to have one or two foster carers that can take the puppy and kitten that can care for them until ready to be desexed. Any vet that will not desex until six months is in the dark ages. Cats can be pregnant at 4 or 5 months. Although not surprising considering the AVA written policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwikitten Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 In Victoria any dog released from a pound must be desexed unless if it is being returned to owner, or to a shelter or to a community foster care network or other group with a Section 84Y. If you have a section 84y with that pound you in fact become the agent for that pound and undertake the responsibilities for vetwork and paperwork going back to the pound. This can apply to any or all dogs or cats - so also covers sick dogs, those with kennel cough, or just where you do not want to use a particular vet to desex a dog. The right for CFCNs to have this Section 84Y is now indisputable and they are mentioned in the amended DAA. However that of course doesn't mean a council/pound has to deal with them. The pup in question came from a pound in Sydney, and was in care with a rescue group in Melbourne that utilises foster carers. The puppy was being desexed prior to being permanently adopted. What do you do? Do you hold the puppy until it is 6 months old, and then rehome? Or is there any way the puppy can be sent to its prospective owner under a temporary foster care arrangement? Lort Smith has refused in the past to desex a 4 month old chihuahua puppy (privately owned) even though it met the 1kg minimum weight, so I think most vets are reluctant to desex these tiny dogs early. Even kittens at 8 weeks are 3 times the size of a chihuahua puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Sorry to hear about the little pup Tiny creatures are more at risk of complications than others, but anaesthesia and surgery can be performed safely if they are managed pro-actively. Unfortunately, it is often the case that they get treated like 'big dogs' and then they often end up in a sub-optimal position before they have even get anaesthetised . The problems that they experience are not that different from larger dogs, but they do happen faster and an attitude of "she'll be right" just wont fly. All anaesthesia and surgery has inherent risk, but if you are concerned it is always worth having a chat with your vet about what procedures etc they have in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicdrg Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 We routinely desex all animals before adoption. However in a case where for some reason such as serious health risk where operation should be delayed, we do make sure we have vet advice and we place the dog as a foster dog with the person who is intending to adopt it, that is they become our foster carer. Microchip and paperwork remain in our hands and no money exchanges hands until the animal is desexed. The foster care agreement acknowledges we are the owner of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwikitten Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 We routinely desex all animals before adoption. However in a case where for some reason such as serious health risk where operation should be delayed, we do make sure we have vet advice and we place the dog as a foster dog with the person who is intending to adopt it, that is they become our foster carer. Microchip and paperwork remain in our hands and no money exchanges hands until the animal is desexed. The foster care agreement acknowledges we are the owner of the dog. I think that is the most sensible option for sure. I am sure people will present the dogs at 6 months for desexing rather than face losing them permanently. I dont know why some rescue groups feel it is essential to spay regardless of the age, size and breed, it seems that the attitude is "better dead than bred". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicdrg Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 We routinely desex all animals before adoption. However in a case where for some reason such as serious health risk where operation should be delayed, we do make sure we have vet advice and we place the dog as a foster dog with the person who is intending to adopt it, that is they become our foster carer. Microchip and paperwork remain in our hands and no money exchanges hands until the animal is desexed. The foster care agreement acknowledges we are the owner of the dog. I think that is the most sensible option for sure. I am sure people will present the dogs at 6 months for desexing rather than face losing them permanently. I dont know why some rescue groups feel it is essential to spay regardless of the age, size and breed, it seems that the attitude is "better dead than bred". Please do not misunderstand. We do not suggest this is an alternative to early age desexing generally, but only in specific cases where the dog or cat's life or future well being is at risk and where this had been stated by a vet. We would never be involved in passing on an undesexed rescue dog where there was any risk of the animal having a litter. And if we had an animal in the early stages of pregnancy we would always abort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicdrg Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I should also point out that we routinely pay for any'extras' at our vet if needed - pre-bloodwork, iv fluids, hospitalisation. And we are blessed with having a vet that does such a great job on tiny animals that one carer on picking her up rang us to check she had been speyed. Such a tiny little scar, and no external stitches to be removed. Unlike one other vet we used where it was more like 10 stitches. We no longer use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMolly Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The law in Victoria is that all rescue puppies must be desexed before leaving the shelter and going to a home or in to community based foster care. The puppy would probably have just been on or over 1kg - but even that is too small for a breed known to have issues with general anesthesia and problems with regulating their body temperatures (hypothermia is a common post surgery complication). In Victoria any dog released from a pound must be desexed unless if it is being returned to owner, or to a shelter or to a community foster care network or other group with a Section 84Y. If you have a section 84y with that pound you in fact become the agent for that pound and undertake the responsibilities for vetwork and paperwork going back to the pound. This can apply to any or all dogs or cats - so also covers sick dogs, those with kennel cough, or just where you do not want to use a particular vet to desex a dog. The right for CFCNs to have this Section 84Y is now indisputable and they are mentioned in the amended DAA. However that of course doesn't mean a council/pound has to deal with them. The pup in question came from a pound in Sydney, and was in care with a rescue group in Melbourne that utilises foster carers. The puppy was being desexed prior to being permanently adopted. What do you do? Do you hold the puppy until it is 6 months old, and then rehome? Or is there any way the puppy can be sent to its prospective owner under a temporary foster care arrangement? Lort Smith has refused in the past to desex a 4 month old chihuahua puppy (privately owned) even though it met the 1kg minimum weight, so I think most vets are reluctant to desex these tiny dogs early. Even kittens at 8 weeks are 3 times the size of a chihuahua puppy. I am a little confused if the pup came from a Sydney pound, why did it have to be sexed before it was placed in a home, (just before anyone shoots me down, I think all animals should be desexed before adoption).. Was it not the rescue groups decision?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 It is the law in Victoria that all shelter/rescue animals be desexed prior to adoption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Microchip and paperwork remain in our hands and no money exchanges hands until the animal is desexed. The foster care agreement acknowledges we are the owner of the dog. That is illegal in some states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anniek Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Microchip and paperwork remain in our hands and no money exchanges hands until the animal is desexed. The foster care agreement acknowledges we are the owner of the dog. That is illegal in some states. what - illegal to have a dog in foster care??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwikitten Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Please do not misunderstand. We do not suggest this is an alternative to early age desexing generally, but only in specific cases where the dog or cat's life or future well being is at risk and where this had been stated by a vet. We would never be involved in passing on an undesexed rescue dog where there was any risk of the animal having a litter. And if we had an animal in the early stages of pregnancy we would always abort. I do understand, and I am all for early desexing in pets that can handle it. But breeds like chihuahuas, sighthounds, and flat faced dogs, all present with anatomical issues that increase the odds of surgical risks being experienced. In these cases, it is better to err on the side of safety first. Chihuahuas for instance, in addition to anesthesia sensitivity, also have soft tracheas (making it more difficult to keep the airway open), lose heat quickly (making them prone to post-surgery hypothermia), and often suffer from hypoglycemia (also a common problem post surgery due to fasting). All these risks are exacerbated when they are tiny puppies. People say "we do tiny kittens without any problem" but chihuahuas are not cats, they have quite different physiologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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