armahani Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I was reading some news from a friend o/s yesterday, commenting that their new mum was struggling with milk production, and someone replied asking "have you tried x, I put all of my girls on x." Which got me curious so I looked up x product which apparently is a complete wonder supplement ;) helping with all things from milk production through to renewing reproductive organs :), and what I did find was a whole raft of dietary supplements - some for pre-mating to help with reproductive capacity, some for during pregnancy, some for during birth, some for while they are nursing etc. Which continued to get me curious ('cause I'm a bit like that :D ). And I was wondering what other people's practices are. Do you use supplements for your breeding girls? What do you use, when and why? What results have you found? Do you use them in all situations or only if you encouter specific problems? Interested to know other's thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) I tend to mess with their calcium receptors a little through food manipulation. In the week or two prior to whelping I decrease the amount of calcium the bitch has on offer in her diet. This means that there is an increase in the number of calcium receptors/absorbers in the GIT. Its slightly more complicated than that but the end result is a bitch that is able to absorb more calcium from reduces the chance of milk fever because the increase in calcium given during after whelping is taken in more. I tried honey but it gave my puppies the runs. Nothing else is really given Edited January 26, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The only addition here is Folate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Folate here, too - and plenty of dietary calcium and protein. One thing I am conscious of is that antibiotics need to be carefully screened if being given to a pregnant bitch - some can cause gastrochiasis in whelps if given during the first trimester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Folate here, too - and plenty of dietary calcium and protein. One thing I am conscious of is that antibiotics need to be carefully screened if being given to a pregnant bitch - some can cause gastrochiasis in whelps if given during the first trimester. I try to feed the best I can ALL the time and increase natural calcium during pregnancy with the addition of a few extra chicken wings. I have read so much negative stuff about supplements (larger birth weights etc.) I would not be keen to add anything extra when the list of vitamins and minerals on the quality pre made foods (Advance, Royal Canin, Black Hawk) is already so long. Don't want to over do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairo1 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 This is an interesting topic!! I have been told that by giving human grade calcium and magnesium in the last week prior to whelping, that you increase the strength of contractions and reduce the length of labor. I have heard this from several breeders. Some people swear on it and some don't do any supplementation at all. A recent ultrasound showed only a small litter of very big robust pups so I am not too worried but it's the first litter in about 14 years and theories change over time. . . . Anyone else tried the CaMg?? Cairo1 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Danni Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Folate here too. And once pups are born, Mum gets Protexin and pups get it after about 5 days old. Have used Fenugreek when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Folate, first half of pregnancy. Plus increased seaweed meal, which has multiple trace minerals, but especially for iodine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Can I ask the benefits from kelp/ seaweed meal? I know it is to increase iodine, but what are the benefits of increased iodine please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Can I ask the benefits from kelp/ seaweed meal? I know it is to increase iodine, but what are the benefits of increased iodine please ? Important for proper function of the thyroid. Kelp is also an anti inflammatory, anti tumour, anti rheumatic, cleans the digestive tract, absorbs toxic metals. Rich in vitamins and minerals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) If they are on a balanced diet shouldn't they be getting adequate Iodine?? And why would you only supplement during pregnancy and not all the time?or should you supplement all the time? The reason I ask is I know there can be issues with to high levels of Iodine as well. I also have learnt Whippets can quite often have a thyroid range that is normal but lower than the average dog Edited January 28, 2012 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 We have supplemented our bitches(Bulldogs and Bullmastiffs) with Folic Acid for many many years. We start with a daily dose(half the human dose) at least 2 weeks prior to them being due in season and continue with this until they are due to whelp. Have also supplemented all our dogs with kelp powder, wheat germ, and savoury yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 No apart from a little calcium for the few weeks of nursing, after the births. Extra good food during the last 3 weeks of pregnancy & while feeding pups is fine. I am wary of supplements because they can't meet all claims, not sure of the proven actual effects or safety of some & it is in the manufacturers & distributors best interest to sell as much of the product as they can. Why deal with a problem when you don't even know if there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) No apart from a little calcium for the few weeks of nursing, after the births. Extra good food during the last 3 weeks of pregnancy & while feeding pups is fine. I am wary of supplements because they can't meet all claims, not sure of the proven actual effects or safety of some & it is in the manufacturers & distributors best interest to sell as much of the product as they can. Why deal with a problem when you don't even know if there is one. In regards to deformaties in certain breeds I would rather try to prevent than not do anything. While many many breeders have had cleft palate or hare lip puppies in our breeds we have never had any. Edited January 28, 2012 by Bullbreedlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I think that supplementing ANYTHING on its own is a risk and much depends on the diet that is fed which will be affected by how the food is made, stored what is in it etc. The fact is that no one nutrient goes in without needing other things to help it absorb and assimilate - so for example if you supplement folic acid in order for that folic acid to absorb it needs other things to enable it to get where it needs to go. In order to do that it will use up more iron and more zinc as well as a couple of other vitamins - so while it makes sense to supplement especially in breeds known to have certain problems - what if we give a dog increased folic acid and it has a problem with zinc related issues - staffies and Huskis are two that come to mind and this affects the puppies or the bitch in other ways as increased folate means more zinc is used . Same with calcium - it needs a whole bunch of other stuff to get where it needs to be and diets that are supplemented with calcium result in higher blood calcium levels,so there is no need for the release of parathyroid hormone. As the pregnant dogis supplemented and maintains high calcium levels in her bloodstream, theparathyroid glands literally shut down and are no longer able to respond tosudden drops in blood calcium levels. At the time of whelping, bloodcalcium levels drop as the dog stops eating and begins producing milk.Since the parathyroid glands are no longer functional, or at bestless functional the amount of calcium available for uterine contractions may bediminished, and primary uterine inertia is more common. Duringlactation, calcium demands are hugely increased. Even if calcium is stillsupplemented in the diet, it may not be enough to balance the amount lost inthe milk. The net result is lowered serum calcium, lack of parathyroid hormone,and possible eclampsia. Calciumabsorption and utilisation also are affected by dietary concentrations ofvitamin D and phosphorus and a bunch of other minerals. Too much calcium in the diet canresult in a lack of parathyroid hormone. A lack of parathyroid hormone can cause hypocalcemia. Hypocalcemia can cause eclampsia and contribute to primary uterineinertia. So dietary supplementation during pregnancy and lactation cancause eclampsia and may contribute to dystocia. Anyone who is supplementing calcium to aid in increasing contracting - producing more milk etc is doing exactly the opposite to what will help. So if you are going to supplement anything - go everything via a balanced diet or multi vitamin and mineral dont just pick one or two because nothing works alone.While you may fix one deficiency you bugger up the rest. I give a blackmores vitamin and mineral specifically for pregnant and lactating women because it covers any loss of vitamins in how the dog food is prepared, stored etc and its what I took when I was pregnant just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Usually Folic Acid is in with a womens multi vitamin supplement which is what we have used for years(not just Folic Acid on its own. Should of made myself clearer in my post. This I would recommend using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Usually Folic Acid is in with a womens multi vitamin supplement which is what we have used for years(not just Folic Acid on its own. Should of made myself clearer in my post. This I would recommend using. Yep I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I think that supplementing ANYTHING on its own is a risk and much depends on the diet that is fed which will be affected by how the food is made, stored what is in it etc. The fact is that no one nutrient goes in without needing other things to help it absorb and assimilate - so for example if you supplement folic acid in order for that folic acid to absorb it needs other things to enable it to get where it needs to go. In order to do that it will use up more iron and more zinc as well as a couple of other vitamins - so while it makes sense to supplement especially in breeds known to have certain problems - what if we give a dog increased folic acid and it has a problem with zinc related issues - staffies and Huskis are two that come to mind and this affects the puppies or the bitch in other ways as increased folate means more zinc is used . Same with calcium - it needs a whole bunch of other stuff to get where it needs to be and diets that are supplemented with calcium result in higher blood calcium levels,so there is no need for the release of parathyroid hormone. As the pregnant dogis supplemented and maintains high calcium levels in her bloodstream, theparathyroid glands literally shut down and are no longer able to respond tosudden drops in blood calcium levels. At the time of whelping, bloodcalcium levels drop as the dog stops eating and begins producing milk.Since the parathyroid glands are no longer functional, or at bestless functional the amount of calcium available for uterine contractions may bediminished, and primary uterine inertia is more common. Duringlactation, calcium demands are hugely increased. Even if calcium is stillsupplemented in the diet, it may not be enough to balance the amount lost inthe milk. The net result is lowered serum calcium, lack of parathyroid hormone,and possible eclampsia. Calciumabsorption and utilisation also are affected by dietary concentrations ofvitamin D and phosphorus and a bunch of other minerals. Too much calcium in the diet canresult in a lack of parathyroid hormone. A lack of parathyroid hormone can cause hypocalcemia. Hypocalcemia can cause eclampsia and contribute to primary uterineinertia. So dietary supplementation during pregnancy and lactation cancause eclampsia and may contribute to dystocia. Anyone who is supplementing calcium to aid in increasing contracting - producing more milk etc is doing exactly the opposite to what will help. So if you are going to supplement anything - go everything via a balanced diet or multi vitamin and mineral dont just pick one or two because nothing works alone.While you may fix one deficiency you bugger up the rest. I give a blackmores vitamin and mineral specifically for pregnant and lactating women because it covers any loss of vitamins in how the dog food is prepared, stored etc and its what I took when I was pregnant just in case. Just add to that- High blood calcium levels actually decreases the number of osteoclasts in bone matrix. It is osteoclasts that break down bone to increase calcium levels- so even as PTH is released, causing osteoclasts to kick into action there are not as many as there are in an animal that has not been supplemented orally with calcium. It takes time to create these osteoclasts which means it takes time for the bodies internal regulation system to kick in. By keeping calcium normal (or in my case I remove bones in the last week) it means that the body is forced to regulate its own calcium and makes lots of osteoclasts, so if there is a big dip in calcium for contractions/early lactation there are plenty of osteoclasts to mobilise the calcium from bone, plus giving them lots of oral calcium which will be absorbed gives the bitch a better chance of maintaining her own calcium levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) I think that supplementing ANYTHING on its own is a risk and much depends on the diet that is fed which will be affected by how the food is made, stored what is in it etc. The fact is that no one nutrient goes in without needing other things to help it absorb and assimilate - so for example if you supplement folic acid in order for that folic acid to absorb it needs other things to enable it to get where it needs to go. In order to do that it will use up more iron and more zinc as well as a couple of other vitamins - so while it makes sense to supplement especially in breeds known to have certain problems - what if we give a dog increased folic acid and it has a problem with zinc related issues - staffies and Huskis are two that come to mind and this affects the puppies or the bitch in other ways as increased folate means more zinc is used . Same with calcium - it needs a whole bunch of other stuff to get where it needs to be and diets that are supplemented with calcium result in higher blood calcium levels,so there is no need for the release of parathyroid hormone. As the pregnant dogis supplemented and maintains high calcium levels in her bloodstream, theparathyroid glands literally shut down and are no longer able to respond tosudden drops in blood calcium levels. At the time of whelping, bloodcalcium levels drop as the dog stops eating and begins producing milk.Since the parathyroid glands are no longer functional, or at bestless functional the amount of calcium available for uterine contractions may bediminished, and primary uterine inertia is more common. Duringlactation, calcium demands are hugely increased. Even if calcium is stillsupplemented in the diet, it may not be enough to balance the amount lost inthe milk. The net result is lowered serum calcium, lack of parathyroid hormone,and possible eclampsia. Calciumabsorption and utilisation also are affected by dietary concentrations ofvitamin D and phosphorus and a bunch of other minerals. Too much calcium in the diet canresult in a lack of parathyroid hormone. A lack of parathyroid hormone can cause hypocalcemia. Hypocalcemia can cause eclampsia and contribute to primary uterineinertia. So dietary supplementation during pregnancy and lactation cancause eclampsia and may contribute to dystocia. Anyone who is supplementing calcium to aid in increasing contracting - producing more milk etc is doing exactly the opposite to what will help. So if you are going to supplement anything - go everything via a balanced diet or multi vitamin and mineral dont just pick one or two because nothing works alone.While you may fix one deficiency you bugger up the rest. I give a blackmores vitamin and mineral specifically for pregnant and lactating women because it covers any loss of vitamins in how the dog food is prepared, stored etc and its what I took when I was pregnant just in case. Just add to that- High blood calcium levels actually decreases the number of osteoclasts in bone matrix. It is osteoclasts that break down bone to increase calcium levels- so even as PTH is released, causing osteoclasts to kick into action there are not as many as there are in an animal that has not been supplemented orally with calcium. It takes time to create these osteoclasts which means it takes time for the bodies internal regulation system to kick in. By keeping calcium normal (or in my case I drop off the calcium slightly) it means that the body is forced to regulate its own calcium and makes lots of osteoclasts, so if there is a big dip in calcium for contractions/early lactation there are plenty of osteoclasts to mobilise the calcium from bone, plus giving them lots of oral calcium which will be absorbed gives the bitch a better chance of maintaining her own calcium levels. Edited January 29, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I do wonder if giving them liquid calcium between pups could be potentially setting them up for issues in the first few weeks after whelping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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