Fronts

[huski]

Wuffles does she always lean towards the hand/pocket you reward from?

No, she does it both ways. I try to reward from both hands (although yes I do reward more from my left as habit).

So do you think her leaning/off centered front is due to anticipating the reward? I only ask as I had a similar issue with Daisy anticipating/predicting the reward with fronts too.

ETA: Just saw your edit! I'm not much help in this instance, then, as I rarely ever reward in position (I mark the position then release to the reward). But I did have a problem with Daisy leaning to the side slightly in anticipation of the reward coming from my hand, so I mixed up how I delivered the reward (i.e. it might come from either hand, we might run over to it etc etc) and raised the criteria for fronts, i.e. NRM for even a slightly crooked position. I also play a game with her now which she loves where I take a step back and get her to come to front position and get her to really come in to front hard (so as close and straight as possible). Hard to explain but she really loves it :laugh:

Edited January 19, 2012 by huski

[wuffles]

Wuffles does she always lean towards the hand/pocket you reward from?

No, she does it both ways. I try to reward from both hands (although yes I do reward more from my left as habit).

So do you think her leaning/off centered front is due to anticipating the reward? I only ask as I had a similar issue with Daisy anticipating/predicting the reward with fronts too.

For recalls, I would say yes. She looks from my face to my hands to my face to my side because she KNOWS something is going to happen after the front. I alternate between no finishes, round the back finishes and flip finishes to keep her guessing so perhaps this contributes. Same on retrieves.

However in Rally, where you take a few steps back and call them to front, she wants to swing around like a flip finish. It's just like she doesn't understand what "front" means so somehow I need to strengthen that understanding.

Edited January 19, 2012 by wuffles

[huski]

For recalls, I would say yes. She looks from my face to my hands to my face to my side because she KNOWS something is going to happen after the front. I alternate between no finishes, round the back finishes and flip finishes to keep her guessing so perhaps this contributes.

However in Rally, where you take a few steps back and call them to front, she wants to swing around like a flip finish. It's just like she doesn't understand what "front" means so somehow I need to strengthen that understanding.

I would take it a few steps back then like others have said, like I mentioned above with the game I play with D, I run/take step backwards and get her to follow me 'pushing' into front position the whole time. That may help with the rally exercise as you're walking backwards?

[ness]

What about rewarding her by releasing her and throwing food between your legs wuffles??

[fuzzy82]

I shaped the front using a target in front of my feet. Rewarded for touching the target, also rewarded if he sat anywhere in front of me, then only for sitting and touching the target at the same time, and then only for sitting straight. Then remove the target, do a few reps, then start moving around and the dog has to come in straight. If he came in crooked I took a step back, or just waited it out and he would move his butt around and then I just clicked when he ended up straight.

Now that it's on cue I keep my hands on my back when I call him, and he sits staring up at my face when he comes in.

Edited January 19, 2012 by fuzzy82

[gsdog2]

You can also use a platform to shape perfect fronts.

:thumbsup: platforms are the easiest way to teach your dog positions. Not only does Indi now know a perfect front, but she now STAYS on a stand/stay instead of stepping forward which has been a real issue with her. I've got a number of platforms from square to rectangular and an almost flat one that I use to transition her to NO platform at all.

[huski]

I'm really lazy, I don't actually remember how I first trained the front, it was probably just through luring :laugh: I am lucky though that Daisy has never had much of a problem doing them straight consistently. Though having said that I did do a lot of pivot work on a perch and I've always done a lot of front work that way.

[m-j]

Where else would I look except at my dog?

You can look at your dog with your eyes but actually following your dog with your head moving it down as the dog gets closer was with this judge was a no no.

Which at the time with the method that was used then, could have been a signal to your dog you are watching ready to nail him if he makes a mistake.

[wuffles]

I have tried pretty much everything mentioned :laugh: Might give the platform work a bit of a think...

[Leema]

I'm trying to find Sue Ailsby's instructions, but her website is all different and I can't.

Dogs got their own site here:

http://www.sue-eh.ca/

Yeah, but she used to have it so you could read all about one behaviour/skill set on one page - now it seems you have to go through all the levels and read bits of each page.

[bedazzledx2]

Did you ask the judge why she lost the point? There are many elements to the formal retrieve and it would be a very nit picky judge to lose a point on where the dogs eyes are. Having said that, some judges just cant bring themselves to give full points and it can be just because ;)

Here is an example from our last trial where we lost 1 point. I think she may be looking at my pocket!!!

Edited January 21, 2012 by bedazzledx2

[ness]

I was going to say the same - I got 37 for what I would have thought was the best recall Kenz had done in a trial. I am picky but on this occasion her front was dead on, her finish was dead on and I know when she isn't. I got 39/40 for one which were I don't think the present was as spot on and her finish as possibly a tad squiffy in my eyes.

[wuffles]

Did you ask the judge why she lost the point? There are many elements to the formal retrieve and it would be a very nit picky judge to lose a point on where the dogs eyes are. Having said that, some judges just cant bring themselves to give full points and it can be just because ;)

Here is an example from our last trial where we lost 1 point. I think she may be looking at my pocket!!!

It was just a Novice recall, it was pretty obvious that she was slightly crooked (photo is a bit deceptive but if you look closely you can see she is crooked).

[RubyStar]

Judges scores rarely reflect what we think is worthy of a score (they either mark too high or too low :laugh:) and how many would remember every aspect of that exercise to formulate the score?

Millie got full marks on her drop on recall and she didn't come with me on the lead up to the halt as she got distracted. Judge must have forgotten about that bit, as the drop was pretty speedy :laugh:

Then sometimes the dog does something brilliantly and you lose a mass of points and you are left scratching your head!

I can't offer much front help, my dogs aren't prime examples Currently trying to teach little Pippa a front and attempting something I got from my Chris Bach dvd. She sort of lures them between her knees and walks backwards in large circles, getting the dog to maintain their front position while they walk forwards. Perch work will help with backend awareness and then should help with keeping their bum in the right spot. Yep, think I need to do some perch work with the little one!!

Edited January 21, 2012 by RubyStar

[Red Fox]

I recently watched a Bart Bellon vid where he explains how he uses a 3 sided box as a physical barrier to teach the dog a perfect front and finish - "Parking the dog in the garage"

From there he progresses to two stakes in the ground to guide the dog in, thn eventually to an "invisible electric barrier" (the e-collar).

The box/barrier idea might be worth considering.

[Ptolomy]

Try filming too wuffles - sometimes it's our body language that is throwing them off. Also, perhaps you could try a high stool as an in-between step?

Good idea, I do notice that she tends to look at my hands when she comes in for a front (anticipating the treat - even though it's pretty rare for them to come straight from my hands :laugh:) so that could be a possible cause.

Basically your dogs doesn't know what you want without all the cues. So to her standing looking at her with bent knees, hands in front twidling of the fingers means come front. Standing there doing nothing she is unsure.

I started as TSD suggested sitting in front of TV with my legs out and I throw treats and the dog uses the guide of my legs to find front. You can do a zillion of these every night with out much thought

You than progress to using the sides of the box when you take it out to the oval if you still feel that she needs help. With Strauss I do sometimes throw the food between my legs and tell him to get it as he has an issue with coming in close.

I highlighted one of your posts - fronts is the one time 99% of the treats come from my hands which are right in front of where the dogs nose should be. Every time I ask for a front I want the dog to think its going to get rewarded if it comes in and presents perfectly. If it doesn't get treated its because it is slightly off. The treats are already in my hands when I about turn as I don't want diving into my pocket to be a part of the cue.

Front are also something that need continual work - I don't feel its something you can say - ok she understands it now so I never have to practice it again, unlike the box which for me, as long as the dog sits in the box I really don;t care if its in the middle or towards the back or even to one side (I can feel a slap coming from Caffy )

[Mason_Gibbs]

Yup masons fronts are disguisting at the moment we are now working on them from scratch as he sits way out to the right