Fronts

[wuffles]

I'm having a bit of trouble getting completely straight fronts all the time with my girl. She's probably straight 80% of the time.

I didn't worry too much about it until we started Rally O with the dreaded front, 1, 2, 3 steps back exercise And I figured I should probably fix it for Open obedience too :laugh:

If I physically move and pull my hands in close (especially if food is involved) she will come in straight and close. It's when I try to tone down the body language that she gets crooked again. Sometimes in Rally she will try swing her bum around towards heel position instead.

[Leema]

I'm trying to find Sue Ailsby's instructions, but her website is all different and I can't.

She free shapes a front, and suggests taping a semi circle with radial lines on the floor to help yourself.

First you C&T for entering the semi circle, then for entering some of the radial lines, and then for getting it centred. Then you introduce the sit.

I found a video that may help...

And the more advanced stage...

[wuffles]

Thanks Leema. I have tried some shaping but I couldn't get an offer of anything except heel position so I gave up :laugh: Might have to try that one again.

[Kavik]

I have a question. I think it would be difficult to shape both heel position and front position - how is the dog going to know which one you are trying to train? Shaping for agility is easier I think since there is equipment so the dog clues in on that.

[wuffles]

I think my dog is already confused about the distinction between front and heel If she has enough cues (if I bend my knees for her to come in that way, or if I hold a treat at the right spot, she is fine, but once I remove them she tends to swing the bum).

[The Spotted Devil]

I shaped front by sitting on a chair with legs apart. Very easy for dog to find position and something I go back to. Then add the dumbbell and your retrieve is sorted

[Kavik]

I shaped front by sitting on a chair with legs apart. Very easy for dog to find position and something I go back to. Then add the dumbbell and your retrieve is sorted

That's a good idea I did mine with come fore exercises (so luring), but he is pretty good at finding it by himself.

[Leema]

Every time I start a shaping session, it's up to the dog to work out what I'm wanting that session. Sometimes it's heeling, sometimes it's fronts, sometimes it's walking backwards, sometimes it's staying.

But, in obedience, people normally have their hands in their middle for fronts and to their sides/hips for heeling, so there's enough context cues if your dog wanted to find them.

[wuffles]

I shaped front by sitting on a chair with legs apart. Very easy for dog to find position and something I go back to. Then add the dumbbell and your retrieve is sorted

Thanks TSD :) I have done this but as I say as soon as I remove the big cues she gets crooked again. I guess I just need to keep going back to things like this to try cement her understanding.

[The Spotted Devil]

Try filming too wuffles - sometimes it's our body language that is throwing them off. Also, perhaps you could try a high stool as an in-between step?

[wuffles]

Try filming too wuffles - sometimes it's our body language that is throwing them off. Also, perhaps you could try a high stool as an in-between step?

Good idea, I do notice that she tends to look at my hands when she comes in for a front (anticipating the treat - even though it's pretty rare for them to come straight from my hands :laugh:) so that could be a possible cause.

[ness]

You can also use a platform to shape perfect fronts.

[m-j]

Try filming too wuffles - sometimes it's our body language that is throwing them off. Also, perhaps you could try a high stool as an in-between step?

That's a good idea as sitting on a high chair and fading that position to a stand seems like it would be easier than fading from a sit to a stand. The training picture isn't changing as drastically.

I teach this by luring and when I give the recall hand signal I return my hands to the position in front where the dog got the treat from in the initial stage of training. Not sure if that is allowed these days tho

[Kavik]

From memory your hands have to be in the same position at the start and end of the exercise - so you can start and end with hands in front of you or on the side but can't start with them by your side and after calling put them in front (extra signal).

[wuffles]

Here is an example from our last trial where we lost 1 point. I think she may be looking at my pocket!!!

[Aidan3]

I'm trying to find Sue Ailsby's instructions, but her website is all different and I can't.

Dogs got their own site here:

http://www.sue-eh.ca/

[m-j]

Here is an example from our last trial where we lost 1 point. I think she may be looking at my pocket!!!

Do you always look at your dog when she comes in? I got pinged 2 points on a recall for that. The hands didn't matter. :laugh: To be fair to the judge, the trial was way back when nobody used food or a positive motivator to make the dog work so hands in that position weren't as relevent as they would be today.

If you do look at your dog as she is coming in may have some relevence to the straight front, or maybe not, this is where filming yourself is good.

From memory your hands have to be in the same position at the start and end of the exercise - so you can start and end with hands in front of you or on the side but can't start with them by your side and after calling put them in front (extra signal).

I thought that was the case, thanks Kavik

[wuffles]

Here is an example from our last trial where we lost 1 point. I think she may be looking at my pocket!!!

Do you always look at your dog when she comes in? I got pinged 2 points on a recall for that. The hands didn't matter. :laugh: To be fair to the judge, the trial was way back when nobody used food or a positive motivator to make the dog work so hands in that position weren't as relevent as they would be today.

If you do look at your dog as she is coming in may have some relevence to the straight front, or maybe not, this is where filming yourself is good.

From memory your hands have to be in the same position at the start and end of the exercise - so you can start and end with hands in front of you or on the side but can't start with them by your side and after calling put them in front (extra signal).

I thought that was the case, thanks Kavik

Where else would I look except at my dog?

The hands don't necessarily have to be in the same place at the start and end of the exercise, it's more relevant to each command. For example in the lead up to the recall you can have your hand on your hip to heel, then walk away with your hands loose, then turn around with your hands in front of you. But after you give the recall command your hands have to return to the same place they were before the command - ie. in front of you. If that makes sense :)

Edited January 19, 2012 by wuffles

[huski]

Wuffles does she always lean towards the hand/pocket you reward from?

[wuffles]

Wuffles does she always lean towards the hand/pocket you reward from?

No, she does it both ways. I try to reward from both hands (although yes I do reward more from my left as habit).

Edit: Come to think of it I do reward quite a bit from the left, because she can forge in heelwork so I reward in the correct position with my left hand. When doing fronts, though, I think I mix it up pretty well (and very often use remote rewards).

Edited January 19, 2012 by wuffles