Deformed Puppy - * Now With Pictures*

[asal]

His head did look quite like it was fluid filled. Hydrocephalus might've been right, but maybe associated with some other malformation of his head.

We took this poor boy to the vet today, but vet didn't have many answers. He suggested that perhaps the head was compressed during delivery. (I think the head looked odder when the puppy was alive - perhaps blood flow was sustaining its size?)

The other overshot (overbite) puppy also died this morning. It had no interest in feeding, it wouldn't get warm (put it on heat packs etc and it just stayed icy to the touch), and it still had goop on it because mum wasn't interested in cleaning or tending to it. Another one that wasn't meant to make it.

I'd be very concerned if this was one of MY litters - I'd want to know where these two big over bites came from! (And, you're right, it'd probably be blamed on inbreeding or the 'problems' of purebreds.)

There are three fit and healthy brindle boys that are feeding well and passed a vet check today. :)

I just love it when something like this turns up in someones purebred breeders litter. I can just about guarantee the owner of the bitch will say it must have come from the sire.

The owner of the sire will say it has come from the bitch. both owners are posative their darling is the victum in this AND anyone that hears of it will say,,,,,,INBREEDING did it...

such fun.

oddly enough we dont hear about this happening in x bred litters. maybe because its not encouraged for someone whelping a x bred litter to talk about on purebred forums. thanks for posting.

although I have related previously the three samoyed x Labradors all with hip displacia that a friends family bought egged on by the garden gnome convincing them that designer is the only way to go if its a sound puppy you want.

If you are wondering, yes i have a very warped sense of humour. all the finger pointing that goes on when mother nature decides to pop up disasters and no one looks at the fact that every conception is a huge genetic gamble along with the building blocks can get mixed up in the process and absorb or abort, many conceptions never make it through to birth. even.

Edited January 27, 2012 by asal

[asal]

clicked on one of the links at the bottom of the Link in the previous post.

very interesting reading

Looking over the Fence

Sometimes others face similar problems and express themselves in such a perfect manner, that it is well done to read their take and apply it to one's own situation. One such is the article "The biggest problem" by C.A. Sharp, a dog breeder who has faced many, repeated and enduring troubles while trying to instill some sense of responsible and genetically sound breeding in her favorite breed.

What she writes here about the reactions of breeders so epitomizes common reactions among breeders of just about any type of animal, including the recent reactions of the Akhal Teke breeding community, that it can serve to explain what is happening exactly (when people deny genetical diseases), why they do it and how this ought to be understood. We can only underline ourselves what C.A. Sharp concludes with: we should openly talk about this, not deny it and find ways to deal with it.

The Biggest Problem

by C.A. Sharp

We have met the enemy and he is us.

--Pogo

Within a year and a half of obtaining my first Aussie for show and breeding, I slammed up against the reality of canine genetic disease. I remember standing in the vet’s office staring at the first set of hip x-rays I’d ever seen as he explained that Patte was dysplastic. He pointed out features that demonstrated the problem, then asked if I still wanted it sent to OFA. Patte had pre-limed “Good” at a year. I sent them in hoping the vet was wrong. He wasn’t.

I got Patte when her first owners gave her back to the breeder because the father lost his job. The breeder thought the 8-month-old had potential and, knowing I wanted an Aussie I could show, placed her with me on condition that she got a litter before I got the papers.

She found a stud and had the preliminary OFA x-ray done. I helped with transport to the distant stud and took care of Patte and the litter, so the breeder let me keep one of the pups, expanding my kennel-to-be to two breeding-quality bitches. In anticipation of having a litter all my own, I’d booked Patte to a well-respected stud. Then OFA’s hammer fell.

I called the breeder, who was also my mentor. She was very sorry Patte had failed OFA and agreed that breeding her again was out of the question. When I expressed my distress at having to call the stud owner to say why I couldn’t bring Patte to her male, the breeder’s tone changed.

"You can’t tell anybody about this. It will ruin your reputation and nobody will have anything to do with you.. It will also ruin mine." She went on to tell me that it could ruin Patte’s litter, the sire of that litter and even the dog to which I had booked her. She made it very clear that no one should ever know what was wrong with Patte. I knew so little and I thought she knew so much. I trusted her guidance, but her advice left me numb.

I called the stud owner and made a lame excuse to cancel the breeding. I don’t remember what I said, but I know it was a lie. I could tell the stud owner knew I wasn’t being straight with her. I felt dirty.

This happened to me many years ago, but genetic disease continues to inspire a range of negative human behavior, wrapping the subject in a shroud of secrecy and denial.

Today, I am a breed health advocate and lay genetic counselor. I frequently find myself in the middle of situations like the above. Intimidation to enforce silence, the fear of speaking out, and inability to face facts, not to mention outright lies, are in my opinion the biggest problem breeders face in the attempt to control genetic disease in purebred dogs.

There are many conditions for which science still has too few answers. The expense of testing can be prohibitive. Some diseases occur so late in a dog’s career, it will already have puppies and maybe grand-puppies on the ground. All of these pale beside our too-frequent refusal to be honest with ourselves and each other.

Those of us who consider ourselves to be truly dedicated to the preservation of purebred dogs must make a dispassionate analysis of the human behavior surrounding canine genetic disease and realize what it is doing, not only to our dogs, but to ourselves.

The Incorrigibles

You all know them. The ones who put winning above all other goals. “It doesn’t matter as long as the dog wins,” is their mantra. Their dogs must win, as must their dogs’ offspring, and woe betide anyone who stands in their way as they pursue greater breed—and personal—glory.

The full range of the Incorrigibles’ ego-driven behavior is beyond the scope and purpose of this article, but it clearly affects genetic disease control. If a genetic problem isn’t apparent, they will ignore it. If it can be fixed, they will. If it can’t, they will employ some variant on “shoot, shovel and shut-up,” or recoup their losses by shipping the dog a long ways away, preferably across an ocean or two. If someone else knows about the problem, the Incorrigible will use any means at his disposal to shut that person up, ranging from veiled threats and rumor-mongering to blatant bully-tactics and threatened legal action.

Nothing can be done to change these people. They are who they are and it is unlikely that any act of man or God will alter their course. However, the rest of us can alter our behavior toward them.

The most effective manner of dealing with a bully is to refuse to be bullied. It is hard to keep this in mind when an Incorrigible is threatening you with death, destruction and lawyers. This is especially so if the Incorrigible has a Big Name and you are Nobody (of which status the Incorrigible will frequently remind you.) She will rally her hangers-on to harass and snub you. It hurts to be treated like this, but take a deep breath, give your dog a hug and remember that people who act this way were never your friends in the first place. If La Incorrigible is upset, that is her problem not yours.

In very few cases can an Incorrigible really do anything to you other than attempt to make you miserable, though if you’ve made the mistake of getting into contractual agreements with such a person you might do well to get a little legal advice on what you can and cannot do in the situation. An ounce of lawyer ahead of time is worth 175 pounds of lawyer in court. You may find that the Incorrigible’s legal threats are groundless.

One thing that has always amazed me about Incorrigibles is how many people will speak among themselves about how unprincipled and ruthless they are and yet these same people will do business with them without the blink of an eye. If a person has a reputation as a jerk or dubious honesty, why deal with him? If he has treated others poorly, why would you think it would be different for you?

"Ah, but their dogs win!"

If this is your rejoinder, may I humbly suggest you re-evaluate your priorities. Do so with the picture firmly in mind of a child who has just been told his beloved dog has to be euthanized because it has a devastating hereditary disease.

The Ostrich Syndrome

We have trained ourselves to fear genetic disease in our dogs. Rather than approaching it as just another obstacle a breeder must overcome on the path to producing quality dogs, we react as if we have come caught a socially unacceptable disease. “Love me, love my dog” mutates to “my dog’s disease, my disease.”

The normal first reaction of anyone confronted with a bad situation is denial: “This can’t be happening to me!” But this phase should soon give way to emotions better suited to deal with the problem at hand. Unfortunately, some people get stuck at the denial stage. I have long referred to this as “the Ostrich Syndrome.”

The Ostrich will find numerous excuses and justifications for not performing screening tests. He will promise faithfully to get screening done, then fail to do so. He will make no effort to follow-up on indications that something may have occurred in a dog he produced. But ignorance is not bliss for those who have dogs from an Ostrich with a hereditary disease in his line.

An example of the Ostrich Syndrome gone malignant can be found in my own breed, the Australian Shepherd. Epilepsy is a growing problem. It is a difficult disease to diagnose and many things other than epilepsy can cause seizures. Unfortunately, this gives a dedicated Ostrich plenty of maneuvering room. There are many Ostriches who have or have produced epileptic Aussies, but the testing doesn’t get done, they won’t cooperate with an on-going research project, and what “really” happened is the dog hit it’s head/got into ant poison/had heat stroke and so on. Apparently these dogs hit their heads, eat poison or overheat every three to four weeks.

A person stuck in denial can be difficult to dislodge. If someone you know is exhibiting Ostrich tendencies, try to reason with them. Avoid public discussion of the Ostrich’s weak spot and don’t be confrontational or accusing in your approach, as this will probably encourage the Ostrich to shove her head farther into the sand.

Always be alert for Ostrich tendencies in yourself. If a health situation comes up in one of your dogs, do your best to put your emotional reaction aside, think about the facts and consult with vets and others who may give you factual insight to the situation. If you find yourself saying, “I can’t deal with this” or “it can’t be true,” you may be on the way to Ostrich status.

Circling the Wagons and Feeding Frenzies

Fear of genetic disease can spur group behavior. If someone does something to point out a possible genetic problem in a line or family of dogs, owners and breeders of those dogs may “circle the wagons” to fend off the perceived attack. A united front can be a very effective defense.

Sometimes the defenders will be camp-followers of a big name with whom they wish to curry favor, but more often than not they are people who are threatened by unsolicited and unpleasant news. The latter is an example of group Ostrich Syndrome, a firing squad for the messenger being more comfortable than facing facts. The more pernicious examples of “circle the wagons” behavior include things like the suppression of health survey results and the stifling or outright cancellation of informative articles in club publications.

Every so often, some brave soul will make a very public statement about hereditary disease in specific dogs. Often this is done by placing an ad listing the names and perhaps pedigrees of affected dogs or posting them on a breed discussion list or website. Angry private and public attack often ensues, building to a feeding frenzy in the letter columns and chat lists.

I’ve watched the scenario unfold several times in my own breed and heard of it happening in others. Negative reaction from some who own relatives of the affected dog is not surprising, but even those with no personal stake in the matter sometimes feel it necessary join the attack. The public confessor will be accused of lying or being misinformed, even if he has thorough veterinary documentation of the disease. Sometimes the protest boggles the mind, as in a letter to a breed magazine excoriating the confessor because she had placed a proven disease carrier in a pet home!

The feeding frenzy is that which most discourages otherwise honest people from speaking out. Standing up under the brunt of public and rancorous attack is difficult. Not everyone has the emotional or moral strength to do so. The confessor can feel isolated and very, very vulnerable. However, a reverse on the “circle the wagons” technique may help.

In most cases, if your dog develops a hereditary disease you will not be the only person it has happened to. A number of years ago Collie Eye Anomaly was a hot-button topic among Australian Shepherd people. A group of breeders with affected dogs went public together, taking out an ad in the Aussie Times listing their names and the names of their affected dogs. They did a follow-up a few months later after they had instituted a test-mating program to clear unaffected relatives. Public comment was positive, though the silence from some quarters was deafening to those in the know. By uniting publicly, they avoided the feeding frenzy that had greeted earlier CEA confessors.

Honest Sam’s Used Dogs

There was a time when sexually transmitted diseases were not to be discussed in polite society. Sometimes it seems canine genetic disease is still there. People will go on at great length about the minutiae of coat color, roundly condemn purely aesthetic “faults,” and at the same time refuse to discuss other genetic situations which have a clear impact on a dog’s health and soundness.

More than one person seeking my input has bemoaned his inability to get any useful information about hereditary disease issues out of people from whom he wants to buy a dog or whose stud he is considering. Since there is no such thing as a 100% genetically “clean” line, these potential customers are justified in their frustration.

Think about the process of buying a car. You like the way it looks and have read extensively on its performance triumphs. You may even have taken it for a spin and been impressed with the way it handles. But when you ask the salesman about its background, he knows nothing and swears it’s never needed so much as the tires rotated or the oil changed. You decide to do a little independent research before you commit, but consumer reports on the car don’t exist. You can’t find any on other models by that manufacturer. In fact, you can’t find anything but glowing promotional accounts of the manufacturer’s past history, usually generated by an in-house marketing staff.

Dealing in dogs can leave you with much the same experience. It is very difficult for the newcomer who has no connections or frame-of-reference, but even the experienced can find themselves floundering in a sea of non-information. While the actions of others in this regard are beyond your control, how do you behave when you are the “car salesman?”

Within a couple years of my experience with Patte’s hip dysplasia, I decided I wasn’t going to lie. When discussing my dogs with others, both in the process of doing business and casual conversation, I was up front about Patte’s problem. And I certainly appreciated the breeders who were open with me about the weaknesses along with the strengths of their dogs.

We all need to muster the strength of character to bring genetic disease out of the closet. Be willing to say, “When I did this cross, I got that problem in two of six puppies.” No breeder can make good choices when the facts are hidden. If problems occur, the fault lies with the person who neglected to inform the breeder of the potential.

There would be far less problem with inherited diseases if everyone would approach them with the same attitude we take with faults in conformation or performance. These issues are openly discussed at great length. Informed breeders will know that if they cross to dogs from that kennel they may lose some intensity in the trial arena or bring out the straight stifles that lurk in their own dogs’ background. This can be weighed against the positive attributes that kennel can bring them. Genetic disease should be a similarly open book.

The Face in the Mirror

Ultimately, the responsibility for controlling genetic disease belongs to each of us, individually. I hated living a lie in regard to Patte’s hip dysplasia. I finally realized that if I wanted to be able to look myself in the eye when I happened upon a mirror, I had to quit lying about it.

Stand yourself squarely in front of that mirror and ask, “Am I in denial? Have I done anything to gang up on those who have been outspoken about genetic problems? Have I done anything to aid and abet an Incorrigible? Have I committed “sins of omission” when dealing with my fellow breeders?”

Only you and the face in the mirror know the true answers to these questions. Only you know if the face you see there is friend or foe in the fight against canine genetic disease.

Copyright 2000 C. A. Sharp

[LizT]

asal the deformed puppy was a cross breed from a rescue litter.

Some intersting reading there.

With regards to your postings, interesting what is happening with the Arabian horse re DNA testing. Also further to your postings on "closed Stud books", what say you to the concept of "Breed classifications days" for dogs as per the Pinto Society, no papers or pedigree required, just need to pass a classification of three judges, so long as it doesn't have any Standardbred in it (but whose telling)! What a can of worms that would open! If it looks like a 'dog' then it must be a dog. ;)

[asal]

asal the deformed puppy was a cross breed from a rescue litter.

Some intersting reading there.

With regards to your postings, interesting what is happening with the Arabian horse re DNA testing. Also further to your postings on "closed Stud books", what say you to the concept of "Breed classifications days" for dogs as per the Pinto Society, no papers or pedigree required, just need to pass a classification of three judges, so long as it doesn't have any Standardbred in it (but whose telling)! What a can of worms that would open! If it looks like a 'dog' then it must be a dog. ;)

thats the point.

how often are we told this only happens in purebreds because they are inbred? or the breeder is unethical, either way the result is the same finger pointing and guilt directed.

yet the same occurs in the so called hybrid vigour filled x breds.

nothing is that black and white

yet so much has been slated against purebreds when this happens in their ranks. do you understand?

Edited January 29, 2012 by asal

[LizT]

asal the deformed puppy was a cross breed from a rescue litter.

Some intersting reading there.

With regards to your postings, interesting what is happening with the Arabian horse re DNA testing. Also further to your postings on "closed Stud books", what say you to the concept of "Breed classifications days" for dogs as per the Pinto Society, no papers or pedigree required, just need to pass a classification of three judges, so long as it doesn't have any Standardbred in it (but whose telling)! What a can of worms that would open! If it looks like a 'dog' then it must be a dog. ;)

thats the point.

how often are we told this only happens in purebreds because they are inbred?

nothing is that black and white

yet so much has been slated against purebreds when this happens in their ranks. do you understand?

You are right there. But were it not for the fact that people like Leema posts on DOL we wouldn't hear about these cases. And they are useful and interesting regardless of breed, cross or otherwise. I mean there is a HUGE difference between many purebred dogs but something to be learnt from the experiences of all breeders. :)

[asal]

laws and rulings have even been passed on the assumption that reining in pedigree breeders is going to somehow eliminate the unwanted genes by eliminating for example parent to progeny or brother sister matings. and line breeding discouraged.

dozens of other unwanted genes remain unknown in a large proportion of the population. and will turn up regardless of whether the parents are purebred or x bred

yet only the purebreeder gets the blame if it occures in their litter.

all the millions of wild animals descended from a few imports to a foreign country that are now in the millions and billions are ruthless culled in the wild. thats why u dont see the unlucky ones.

does it make the wild unethical or guilty?

when will the guilt mongering stop and encouragement and support to irricate what no person put there and all work together for the common good?

then maybe less people will hide from admiting they discovered a problem.

You are so right. until the guilt mongering stops and we all work together it just fractionises everyone and slows what we all really want to achieve

Edited January 29, 2012 by asal

[asal]

that article written by Mrs Sharp was so right.

she calls them "The Incorrigibles’ " ive thought of them as the "precious ones"

they forget people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. but "they" feel they are "precious" and special because they have cupboards full of trophies and ribbons and they are there fore above and better.

but do not understand, when you spread ill will it blows across all in the end.

[LizT]

that article written by Mrs Sharp was so right.

she calls them "The Incorrigibles’ " ive thought of them as the "precious ones"

they forget people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. but "they" feel they are "precious" and special because they have cupboards full of trophies and ribbons and they are there fore above and better.

but do not understand, when you spread ill will it blows across all in the end.

I like the part about "they can't hurt you if you don't let them, they never were your friends and to just give your dog a hug." So true. Happy to say I've not meet any who are that extreme so far in the dog world but have encounter a few in the horse world.

My daughter was telling me a funny story a friend related to her and the gist of it was that little Miss precosious 8 year old had just won everything on her million dollar pony at the Melbourne Royal and was being interviewed by the MC of the day over the P.A. His questioning begain with "How did your day start today?" Probably wanting to know what time everyone had to get up to prepare for the busy day. "Little Miss 8 began to recite her day. "Well first we got up to feed "Blackie" and mum gave him his needle so he would be quiet and good.....everything then fell silent. Out of the mouth of babes. :laugh:

Edited January 30, 2012 by LizT

[Abilene]

A number of years ago, I had this happen with a couple different litters. I knew the lines, one of the bitches was a home bred bitch, the other was from another kennel.. One litter we had all dead and half formed puppies, the ones that I could actually see the head, were very overshot like the puppy in the photograph. I rebred that bitch to the same dog and she produced healthy puppies another two times... some of which were kept and shown by me. The other bitch did the same thing, she had a live puppy, a dead puppy and a deformed live puppy which died after me tube feeding it for almost 2 weeks. The live derformed puppy was overshot, but not so severe as the dead puppy. The mother of thes pups went back to the original stud dog and had a litter of perfectly healthy puppies. She also had two more litters to two of my stud dogs and all were fine... some went to Germany and one became a Junior World Champion. We had a very limited gene pool inwhich to work with world wide and puppies were often born with compromised immune sytems, puppies born with gastroschisis (intestines on the outside of their bodies), deformities and bitches aborting.... I put it down to the inbreeding because there was no outcross anywhere in the world... the lines were so closely related. But inbreeding would not explain why one litter would be deformed and the next litter perfectly fine either. I would have given almost anything to be able to get a new bloodline, but you can't get the impossible.... so sometimes I think mother nature does things that we mere mortals will never understand. Sometimes I do believe that there is no rhyme or reason to certain things, sometimes things "just happen".

[Leema]

That's really interesting, Abilene. Thanks for posting your experiences.

[Abilene]

That's really interesting, Abilene. Thanks for posting your experiences.

You're welcome Leema. I still have a problem, just accepting when things go wrong, but I guess most people do... especially when they have such a personal interest and often take things too personally. We all want reasons and explanations... and whilst science can explain many of the reasons "why".... there are still so many invariables... not everything thing is black & white. I have had debates with some veterinarians who just wanted to "blame" something... and yet my equine reproduction veterinarians and very good friends in Australia would sometimes shrug their shoulders and shake their heads and state... there are some things in this world that Mother Nature does that we are just never going to understand.

I have seen things happen that you would just never dream about... but nonetheless they have still happened. We imported a stallion from the USA to Australia over 10 years ago. We sucessfully bred him to over 50 outside mares plus about 20 of our own mares in the first season. Of course there were mares that aborted or simply just did not go in foal, which is always going to happen... but it was a sucessful breeding season. The second breeding season I had purchased a little mare with a foal at foot. She was a red roan and we bred her to our stallion. I whispered in her ear that I really would love a bay or chestnut roan filly. Well she blessed me with a gorgeous chestnut roan filly... I apparently forgot to ask for some other specifics.... the foal was born with eye balls the size of match heads The foal was obviously put to sleep... but otherwise this was a stunning foal, with no other defects... it was otherwise normal. My repro vets who only do horses and repro... and work in Australia for the southern hemisphere breeding season and then in the USA or Europe for the northern hemisphere breeding season, stated that in all the years practicing (50 years for him and 35 years for his wife) they had only ever heard of one other foal that was born like this.

His first words to me were... Do not tell anyone that the foal was born with no eyes... everyone will immediately blame the stallion and the rumours are bad enough in this industry.

AT one stage during the pregnancy the mare did look a little off at one stage and I had called my vet and stated that she looked as if she had lost weight over night. Her temperature was fine, heart rate etc was all normal... she just looked a little hollow... so my vet palpated her and ultrasound scanned her and she was still in foal with a healthy embryo. Everything looked fine. There were other broodmares in the pasture with her and they were all fine. We wondered if she had been bitten by a snake... but all bloodwork came back fine... maybe it was too late for anything to show up in blood work... we were just guessing. We also wondered if she had eaten a toxic weed in the paddock, but I scanned that pasture with a fine tooth comb and came up with nothing. There were other broodmares all in the same paddock as her and they all had perfectly healthy foals.

I was worried that it was just a bad mix of genetics... but we re-bred the mare to the same stallion and she produced a healthy colt the following season and she was re-bred to the same stallion again and had no problems... she has since been sold and has had a healthy foal every year since then. I still question as to why these things happen, as there have been a number of incomprehendable things happen in the gamble of breeding animals.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Abilene

[asal]

I think thats why the Genie in every movie always gets the wishes wrong...the constant reminder...be careful what you wish for.

I am so sorry to hear of you darling foal.

we just lost a much anticipated little girl. liver chestnut with the most perfect 6 on her forehead instead of a star.

actually its not me who lost her. i loaned to mare to a friend already in foal, and im just devasted for her.

she sat up all night, thought nope not going to have it.. went inside had breakki and came out to find the filly already born and instead of trying to get up was simply galloping on the spot. although it was obvious she had been up because the pads were gone from her hind feet and partialy from her front feet.

she did sit up and when helped stand up and walk but would get too tired to stay up long enough to nurse so the vet tube fed her and seemed to be getting stronger then died in her sleep.

my suspicion was she came breech and oxygone deprived, had it happen once decades ago and although i did save him it took some super human efforts to get all the fluid out of his lungs and breathing before brain damage set in.

ive seen it in puppies too..work like crazy to resusitate them then when they are old enough to walk they are what we called stagger puppies.

the vet said it happens in puppies that survive distemper as well. not just oxygen deprived at birth.

Edited February 22, 2012 by asal

[Abilene]

I think thats why the Genie in every movie always gets the wishes wrong...the constant reminder...be careful what you wish for.

I am so sorry to hear of you darling foal.

we just lost a much anticipated little girl. liver chestnut with the most perfect 6 on her forehead instead of a star.

actually its not me who lost her. i loaned to mare to a friend already in foal, and im just devasted for her.

she sat up all night, thought nope not going to have it.. went inside had breakki and came out to find the filly already born and instead of trying to get up was simply galloping on the spot. although it was obvious she had been up because the pads were gone from her hind feet and partialy from her front feet.

she did sit up and when helped stand up and walk but would get too tired to stay up long enough to nurse so the vet tube fed her and seemed to be getting stronger then died in her sleep.

my suspicion was she came breech and oxygone deprived, had it happen once decades ago and although i did save him it took some super human efforts to get all the fluid out of his lungs and breathing before brain damage set in.

ive seen it in puppies too..work like crazy to resusitate them then when they are old enough to walk they are what we called stagger puppies.

the vet said it happens in puppies that survive distemper as well. not just oxygen deprived at birth.

Thanks Asal, it was quite a number of years ago now and I have seemed to have hardened a little after so many years of being in the breeding game and there is an old saying.. if you have livestock, you are going to inevitabley have dead stock at some stage... seems cold and heartless, but it is true and living on a farm, where it is way of life, you do tend to just accept it.

Sorry to hear about you friend's foal. It is heartbreaking when you put so much time and effort in... but so rewarding at other times. I have had a dummy foal, despite foaling alarm, I was there straight away, but foal was stuck and regardless of using lots of lubricant and trying to pull the foal out by the time vet got there, the foal was already too oxygen deprived. But we do the best we can.

I brought one of my dogs to the US with me and she has only ever had one litter of puppies in Australia. She was a nice bitch in the ring and I wanted just one more puppy from her to show. So I made a 2 day drive to the stud dog... and a two day drive back home again... got home on Xmas eve, thank goodness it wasn't snowing up north... but it was wet and icy, so the whole trip was quite an ordeal... (although I have been here in the US for almost 2 years, driving on the wrong side of the road is still a challenge :laugh: add lots of holiday traffic and rain and ice to the mix and it's a little scary

Two weeks before my girl was due to whelp, she aborted the puppies I wasn't too concerned about the puppies, I was just worried about my girl... but she is fine and we are going to try one more time. We have no idea of why she aborted, but in this breed (and other breeds I would imagine)... sometimes if the bitch has not had puppies and the uterus has lied fallow for a period of time.. when they are bred, they sometimes don't carry to term... then next time, they have a healthy litter. It's been 3 1/2 years since her one and only litter... no problems with that litter... she was 3 when I bred the first litter. She will be 7 in April and I am a little dubious about breeding her at this age... though she is only middle aged for a toy breed... canine repro vets here and stud dog owner have said that she is healthy enough, fit enough and uterus is in good enough shape... so no more risk in trying again than if she were half her age. So going to try one more time. But if there is any more risk, to my girl, I certainly wouldn't be breeding her again. I am not wishing for anything except a couple of nice and healthy puppies and healthy mother.... be nice if I got a nice show baby, but just live puppies will be a start.

I also have a mare due this time next month... maiden mare, and the only mare I put in foal last year. When there is only one due, I find that the anticipation is even worse :) There is a lot riding on this mare because I had qualified her for the World show and then she injured herself. So to the broodmare band she was sent. But I have come to know not to expect too much, because when you get a good one, then it's so rewarding... but if something goes wrong, it's hard not to be disappointed. But still we continue to try our best.

[Leema]

ive seen it in puppies too..work like crazy to resusitate them then when they are old enough to walk they are what we called stagger puppies.

Tell me more about this!! This litter is just full of misfits, and one of the surviving puppies is not walking normally. Very cute, comes up to you, says hi, plays with toys, plays with brother, eats, etc, but something is not right. His balance seems to be off. I did revive this puppy when he was born.

[asal]

ive seen it in puppies too..work like crazy to resusitate them then when they are old enough to walk they are what we called stagger puppies.

Tell me more about this!! This litter is just full of misfits, and one of the surviving puppies is not walking normally. Very cute, comes up to you, says hi, plays with toys, plays with brother, eats, etc, but something is not right. His balance seems to be off. I did revive this puppy when he was born.

if he has survived to this stage thats all he will be...it doesnt get worse.

have a talk to your vet about it.

the really affected ones will wake up from a sleep, go to jump up and run with the others and so uncordinated they can even flip over, or the ones look like its their first day on a ship at sea.

once they realise...hey i have to work at this, they concentrate and the balance at walk, run whatever gets at times to normal.

although the bad ones have to remember each time they wake up from sleep

we had one of that degree a friend had that was a breech and she lived a happy if very noticbly different way of going to 14. so it didnt affect her longlivity.

[Leema]

Yeah, they're about 5 weeks or so now. They'll be getting vet checked, vacc, etc at 6 weeks and we'll see if the vet is concerned at all.

He seems to have to concentrate on whatever he's doing - walking, climbing up stuff, etc, doesn't come naturally to him.

Perhaps I gave him a pre-emptive name by calling him "Klunk" when he was still wet.

Luckily he has a lovely personality that doesn't seem to care about his frequent stumbles. He doesn't know that the world any other way.

[Miss Danni]

Our very first long awaited foal was also a disaster. No eyes at all, but lovely eye lashes over the sockets, only one nostril and the jaw was disconnected from the skull. Lovely pretty dished head, tiny ears and she got up and tried to suckle from her poor mum. She went to God and I did lots of research on what could have caused it. The vets were flumoxed and had no clue. But they didn't feel it was genetic.

I did a repeat mating and held my breath for 11 months, hoping against hope that it wasn't genetic but some horrid thing that had happened at a crucial stage of embryonic development.

Then one night I was watching 4 Corners on the ABC and they did a story on selenium poisoning in fish ..... and BANG, there it was. Same symptoms. I rang my vet and he did some research and found a paper from the US that had looked at selenium poisoning in horses, a very small sample though, and that also kind of tallied with my baby.

Selenium is an unusual suspect because Aussie soils are quite selenium depleted, so the feed companies add selenium, so it might have been a simple case of a "bad" lot of feed with too much selenium in it at exactly the wrong time for my baby, but I'll never know for sure.

And the repeat mating .... 100% normal and she has just turned 13

[puglvr]

Try googling Cerebella Hypoplasia, Like Cerebral Palsy. We had one like this that we attributed to oxygen deprevation at birth. Also know of 2 from 1 litter who are being observed by a top neuro specialist and he is stumped as to what caused it.

[asal]

well the symptoms are sure not like that in stagger pup. she was the worst of the three puppies born and all were breech and all were apparently stillborn and resitated.... the other two were a little unstable, enough to be noticable as diffenerent from a normal pup.

I saw the same thing in my friends baby. he was finally delivered by ceaser after the doctors decided he was dying due to the placenta beginning to detach and by the time he was born appeared dead and like the puppies finally resusitated.

he was 6 months older than my baby and so he was 10 months when she was 4 months and the difference in the mobilty of the two children was amazing.. he would just lay and with one finger try to move the bits on the board and quite uncordinated.

mine could use every thing on the board and was trying to sit up and check out the world.

he just lay on his tum as if half drugged.

she said the doctors said he had been slightly brain damaged. I know it didnt take me long to realise something was not normal with him.

he did improve in his motor skills although walking and talking and learning was almost a year behind mine

as for his abilty to bite.....

Edited February 22, 2012 by asal

[Abilene]

Our very first long awaited foal was also a disaster. No eyes at all, but lovely eye lashes over the sockets, only one nostril and the jaw was disconnected from the skull. Lovely pretty dished head, tiny ears and she got up and tried to suckle from her poor mum. She went to God and I did lots of research on what could have caused it. The vets were flumoxed and had no clue. But they didn't feel it was genetic.

I did a repeat mating and held my breath for 11 months, hoping against hope that it wasn't genetic but some horrid thing that had happened at a crucial stage of embryonic development.

Then one night I was watching 4 Corners on the ABC and they did a story on selenium poisoning in fish ..... and BANG, there it was. Same symptoms. I rang my vet and he did some research and found a paper from the US that had looked at selenium poisoning in horses, a very small sample though, and that also kind of tallied with my baby.

Selenium is an unusual suspect because Aussie soils are quite selenium depleted, so the feed companies add selenium, so it might have been a simple case of a "bad" lot of feed with too much selenium in it at exactly the wrong time for my baby, but I'll never know for sure.

And the repeat mating .... 100% normal and she has just turned 13

Sorry, have gotten a bit off topic here, but thanks for sharing that Miss Danni. My friends had a number of their broodies all abort due to selenium... they must have had them tested though, had blood work done on them or something. But didn't get any live foals at all... can't remember how many, but I think it was six that aborted. I thought for sure they had Tent Caterpillar in their paddock, but apparently it was selenium poisoning. I had a mare abort due to Caterpillar and a number of friends of mine had the same thing. Interesting that your foal was just deformed in the head. It is actually scary that so many things can happen that you don't think of.