Fads On Dog Training

[gsdog2]

She holds it during the night too. Experts also say that you should stop giving food and water an hour before they are crated do they do not need to go during the night. I WILL NEVER DEPRIVE MY PUP OF HYDRATION!

So if she 'holds it during the night' are you depriving her of food or water an hour before you put her in the bathroom? I'm guessing not. I don't deprive my crate-trained dogs of food or water either, in fact they have a bowl of water IN their crate as I also wouldn't want to deprive my dogs of hydration :) .

[TheCheekyMonster]

Just read all the posts... everyone has said what I need to say..... if there is anything I need to strongly emphasise, its CRATE!! hahahh I think i would be in a whole world of extra stress if I didnt crate, not only would I wake up to pee puddles but I would probably wake up to a real mess... pups have a real nack for getting into the places you never thought of....

I have a good crating example.... OH and I went overseas for 8 nights... Gus went to my parents place... his crate the place he feels the safest traveled with him... he slept like a baby all night every night and when the house hold got all a bit to much for him you could always find him retreated in his crate.... I think if you give it a honest go and do it property it works and its so so soooooooo handy...

Edited January 13, 2012 by GussysMum

[RubyBlue]

Just read all the posts... everyone has said what I need to say..... if there is anything I need to strongly emphasise, its CRATE!! hahahh I think i would be in a whole world of extra stress if I didnt crate, not only would I wake up to pee puddles but I would probably wake up to a real mess... pups have a real nack for getting into the places you never thought of....

I have a good crating example.... OH and I went overseas for 8 nights... Gus went to my parents place... his crate the place he feels the safest traveled with him... he slept like a baby all night every night and when the house hold got all a bit to much for him you could always find him retreated in his crate.... I think if you give it a honest go and do it property it works and its so so soooooooo handy...

Ditto.

In fact I am getting a second crate tomorrow because my older dog keeps trying to sneak into the puppies crate. I guess she still sees it as hers :laugh:

Without a crate and pen Id be spending a small fortune on repairs. Much like my parents did with our first lab.

[tdierikx]

Anyone who calls the chain collars "choke" chains obviously doesn't know how to use one... they are CHECK chains... my dogs' ones are normally very loose around their necks when walking because I know how to train with them effectively.

Food? Whatever works best for the dog... my current dogs do well on Bonnie kibble. Had one boy who used to only do well on Supercoat Adult Chicken - after we'd tried all of the "better" premium brands.

Crates? Love 'em - wouldn't ever be without a few around. I leave water and sometimes food/treats in with young pups overnight.

T.

[persephone]

Anyone who calls the chain collars "choke" chains obviously doesn't know how to use one... they are CHECK chains... my dogs' ones are normally very loose around their necks when walking because I know how to train with them effectively.

;) I just call them 'Chain collars'

[jacqui835]

I don't want to go too far OT but I'm very curious about crating.

I'm coming around to the idea of crating for puppies - I already do it to an extent in that I block off where they sleep initially and don't let them have run of the house etc until they're older. But I have to be honest, I have some concerns about crating all adults. I like that my dog is used to all sorts of things happening, from me vacuuming to my partner mowing the lawn to all sorts of people turning up at the door etc. I guess I worry that if I put a dog in a crate any time I want to focus on another activity or have people working on the house, well you would be very crate dependent and for coping strategies, well your dog would have crate and that's about it. I mean we had to do (and continue to do) a lot of training, but the result is "good guys" can easily come and deliver packages and not even get barked at. If we need we can have him stay on a blanket or towel or whatever for hours if we want him out of the way when we have guests etc. He doesn't go anywhere near the lawn mower, but he might be outside at the same time as it's going on, just chewing on a toy and keeping out the way kind of thing. I think I might be horribly confused, because I realise that some amazing dog trainers swear by crating, but in my mind, it still feels like something to train if you don't want to or can't train everything else. And I don't think my dog ever gets scared or feels overwhelmed by people or loud noises or storms etc (even on NYE in Sydney he didn't show an iota of interest towards the fireworks going off all around us) but I guess if I had a dog who did react poorly to those sorts of things I would need to provide them with a safe den to hide in - but then I have to be honest again, that wouldn't be my ideal sort of dog...

I am not meaning to insult anyone who does crate train (and I hope I haven't), because I know people want different dogs for all sorts of different reasons but would people say there are ever advantages to not crating adult dogs - if of course you wanted a particular type of dog and service from your dog? And of course we only have 2 dogs - I'm sure if I had a pack well that would obviously factor into it too...

And yeah SecretKei - most of the Mal's I know at our training club need to be crated even as adults - they are just too reactive and waayyy too "on". We have one who is at international competition level, and whilst with his handler he is something else, he is not a dog that can just be left to his own devices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I definitely see a place for crates, but do the people who are knowledgeable about crate training think that they can ever get better results by not crating - or is it a your dog will always be better with crating no matter what type strategy?

[Kavik]

Tradespeople is another area where I really love crates, for two reasons. One, tradespeople are often not comfortable having dogs around when they work, completely understandable. Two, they are notoriously unreliable when it comes to doors and gates, always leave them open. This way the tradespeople feel comfortable working and my dogs stay safe.

[MavericksMission]

Just have to say on the topic of crates..

I think they are a godsend! Having little miss trouble, foster pup here.

I leave water in the crate for her over night, and she still manages to hold on until I let her out to toilet in the morning.

It's great having it there for her meal times away from Maverick. It is covered on three sides so she see it as a den not a cage.

She goes in there for quiet time and when I can't watch her (including overnight)

She goes in with out any problems at all, she has her toys in there and she gets some treats in there.

Wouldn't be without one :)

[espinay2]

If you want to talk fads, how about puppy pre-schools, head collars and "purely positive" training?

Or Caesar Milan....

[aussielover]

The best trainers recognise that not all methods work equally well for all dogs and some methods may not be appropriate or the best for certain dogs.

The same goes for foods. Some dogs do great on raw, some do great on premium foods and yes, some even do great on supermarket products like pal.

It is about learning what is best for your dog, based on their individual personality and requirements, sometimes it does take a bit of trial and error but the good thing about dogs is that they are generally very flexible and forgiving.

I like crates and I think that it is good to train dogs to accept them. I don't think that dogs have to love them, but if you ever need to travel, go to dog shows or trials, confine your dog for illness/injury etc I think you'll find it pretty useful to have a dog that feels comfortable in a crate.

I don't think they are a must for puppy training and in some cases it is easier to get an older dog or puppy to accept a crate.

[huski]

I don't want to go too far OT but I'm very curious about crating.

I'm coming around to the idea of crating for puppies - I already do it to an extent in that I block off where they sleep initially and don't let them have run of the house etc until they're older. But I have to be honest, I have some concerns about crating all adults. I like that my dog is used to all sorts of things happening, from me vacuuming to my partner mowing the lawn to all sorts of people turning up at the door etc. I guess I worry that if I put a dog in a crate any time I want to focus on another activity or have people working on the house, well you would be very crate dependent and for coping strategies, well your dog would have crate and that's about it. I mean we had to do (and continue to do) a lot of training, but the result is "good guys" can easily come and deliver packages and not even get barked at. If we need we can have him stay on a blanket or towel or whatever for hours if we want him out of the way when we have guests etc. He doesn't go anywhere near the lawn mower, but he might be outside at the same time as it's going on, just chewing on a toy and keeping out the way kind of thing. I think I might be horribly confused, because I realise that some amazing dog trainers swear by crating, but in my mind, it still feels like something to train if you don't want to or can't train everything else. And I don't think my dog ever gets scared or feels overwhelmed by people or loud noises or storms etc (even on NYE in Sydney he didn't show an iota of interest towards the fireworks going off all around us) but I guess if I had a dog who did react poorly to those sorts of things I would need to provide them with a safe den to hide in - but then I have to be honest again, that wouldn't be my ideal sort of dog...

I am not meaning to insult anyone who does crate train (and I hope I haven't), because I know people want different dogs for all sorts of different reasons but would people say there are ever advantages to not crating adult dogs - if of course you wanted a particular type of dog and service from your dog? And of course we only have 2 dogs - I'm sure if I had a pack well that would obviously factor into it too...

And yeah SecretKei - most of the Mal's I know at our training club need to be crated even as adults - they are just too reactive and waayyy too "on". We have one who is at international competition level, and whilst with his handler he is something else, he is not a dog that can just be left to his own devices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I definitely see a place for crates, but do the people who are knowledgeable about crate training think that they can ever get better results by not crating - or is it a your dog will always be better with crating no matter what type strategy?

Crating is convenient. It doesn't mean that if your dog is crate trained that you have a dog that can't cope or live without a crate, or doesn't know how to behave when it's not in the crate.

[aussielover]

Agree with Huski. To many dogs, a crate is simply an alternative to a bed.

[Jumabaar]

I don't want to go too far OT but I'm very curious about crating.

I'm coming around to the idea of crating for puppies - I already do it to an extent in that I block off where they sleep initially and don't let them have run of the house etc until they're older. But I have to be honest, I have some concerns about crating all adults. I like that my dog is used to all sorts of things happening, from me vacuuming to my partner mowing the lawn to all sorts of people turning up at the door etc. I guess I worry that if I put a dog in a crate any time I want to focus on another activity or have people working on the house, well you would be very crate dependent and for coping strategies, well your dog would have crate and that's about it. I mean we had to do (and continue to do) a lot of training, but the result is "good guys" can easily come and deliver packages and not even get barked at. If we need we can have him stay on a blanket or towel or whatever for hours if we want him out of the way when we have guests etc. He doesn't go anywhere near the lawn mower, but he might be outside at the same time as it's going on, just chewing on a toy and keeping out the way kind of thing. I think I might be horribly confused, because I realise that some amazing dog trainers swear by crating, but in my mind, it still feels like something to train if you don't want to or can't train everything else. And I don't think my dog ever gets scared or feels overwhelmed by people or loud noises or storms etc (even on NYE in Sydney he didn't show an iota of interest towards the fireworks going off all around us) but I guess if I had a dog who did react poorly to those sorts of things I would need to provide them with a safe den to hide in - but then I have to be honest again, that wouldn't be my ideal sort of dog...

I am not meaning to insult anyone who does crate train (and I hope I haven't), because I know people want different dogs for all sorts of different reasons but would people say there are ever advantages to not crating adult dogs - if of course you wanted a particular type of dog and service from your dog? And of course we only have 2 dogs - I'm sure if I had a pack well that would obviously factor into it too...

And yeah SecretKei - most of the Mal's I know at our training club need to be crated even as adults - they are just too reactive and waayyy too "on". We have one who is at international competition level, and whilst with his handler he is something else, he is not a dog that can just be left to his own devices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I definitely see a place for crates, but do the people who are knowledgeable about crate training think that they can ever get better results by not crating - or is it a your dog will always be better with crating no matter what type strategy?

My dogs do flyball and obedience and I hope to be doing agility in the future- they all are trained to perform without a crate ;) . I do depend on the crates at home when there is something that I consider unsafe because once something is 'done' it can't be undone. They are very polite and generally spend 90% of the day asleep on the bed, or in open crates.

The dog that bit the whippersnapper and took off all its bottom incisors was 8 years old and had always been out with them while they did gardening...... They don't know why it suddenly decided after 8 years to try and take a bite but they felt bloody guilty that they didn't put the dog away. Same with the dog that took out the chain saw- he had lived on a building site and had been around lots of loud moving equipment but decided to take out the this particular piece of equipment. I own kelpies that like to help, but if they see a fly they will chase it and not look where they are going.... So for me the risk when I am using the lawn mower/whipper snipper is too great.

Crates give me peace of mind. My dogs all snooze while I vacuum because there is no risk of them being hurt- but I wouldn't make the same decision with some random opening up gates on the property, even though they all have gate and door manners. Its just not worth the risk regardless of how well trained they are.

Do you walk your dog near a road/motorway for example with a leash? I do- it doesn't mean they pull or behave badly but I don't want a random incident to mean my dogs end up under a car. I think of the crate as the same thing. One of my dogs was a car chaser and now does not even LOOK at cars but that one in particular is crated before I have trades people come in because I am not one to test my training when it risks my dogs life, just as she does not have off lead rights within cooooeeee of a road, even though she has not chased a car in 6 years. (NB car chasing occurred on lead).

When there is a safety concern my dogs get crated... when its a training issue my dogs get trained. Also just because they are in a crate doesn't mean you don't do training- my dogs had to be trained not to bark at tradies- they got treats for being calm etc, just like you would have done with your dog.

If I don't have a crate in these situations I tether my dog because once again their safety is paramount, and they know a bed on the ground means the same thing as a crate. So often they don't even realise they are tethered lol. Just like they hardly realise the crate door is open or locked.

IMO- no ones ideal dog is scared of fireworks....... but sometimes you deal with what you get

Edited January 14, 2012 by Jumabaar

[jacqui835]

I don't want to go too far OT but I'm very curious about crating.

I'm coming around to the idea of crating for puppies - I already do it to an extent in that I block off where they sleep initially and don't let them have run of the house etc until they're older. But I have to be honest, I have some concerns about crating all adults. I like that my dog is used to all sorts of things happening, from me vacuuming to my partner mowing the lawn to all sorts of people turning up at the door etc. I guess I worry that if I put a dog in a crate any time I want to focus on another activity or have people working on the house, well you would be very crate dependent and for coping strategies, well your dog would have crate and that's about it. I mean we had to do (and continue to do) a lot of training, but the result is "good guys" can easily come and deliver packages and not even get barked at. If we need we can have him stay on a blanket or towel or whatever for hours if we want him out of the way when we have guests etc. He doesn't go anywhere near the lawn mower, but he might be outside at the same time as it's going on, just chewing on a toy and keeping out the way kind of thing. I think I might be horribly confused, because I realise that some amazing dog trainers swear by crating, but in my mind, it still feels like something to train if you don't want to or can't train everything else. And I don't think my dog ever gets scared or feels overwhelmed by people or loud noises or storms etc (even on NYE in Sydney he didn't show an iota of interest towards the fireworks going off all around us) but I guess if I had a dog who did react poorly to those sorts of things I would need to provide them with a safe den to hide in - but then I have to be honest again, that wouldn't be my ideal sort of dog...

I am not meaning to insult anyone who does crate train (and I hope I haven't), because I know people want different dogs for all sorts of different reasons but would people say there are ever advantages to not crating adult dogs - if of course you wanted a particular type of dog and service from your dog? And of course we only have 2 dogs - I'm sure if I had a pack well that would obviously factor into it too...

And yeah SecretKei - most of the Mal's I know at our training club need to be crated even as adults - they are just too reactive and waayyy too "on". We have one who is at international competition level, and whilst with his handler he is something else, he is not a dog that can just be left to his own devices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I definitely see a place for crates, but do the people who are knowledgeable about crate training think that they can ever get better results by not crating - or is it a your dog will always be better with crating no matter what type strategy?

My dogs do flyball and obedience and I hope to be doing agility in the future- they all are trained to perform without a crate ;) . I do depend on the crates at home when there is something that I consider unsafe because once something is 'done' it can't be undone. They are very polite and generally spend 90% of the day asleep on the bed, or in open crates.

The dog that bit the whippersnapper and took off all its bottom incisors was 8 years old and had always been out with them while they did gardening...... They don't know why it suddenly decided after 8 years to try and take a bite but they felt bloody guilty that they didn't put the dog away. Same with the dog that took out the chain saw- he had lived on a building site and had been around lots of loud moving equipment but decided to take out the this particular piece of equipment. I own kelpies that like to help, but if they see a fly they will chase it and not look where they are going.... So for me the risk when I am using the lawn mower/whipper snipper is too great.

Crates give me peace of mind. My dogs all snooze while I vacuum because there is no risk of them being hurt- but I wouldn't make the same decision with some random opening up gates on the property, even though they all have gate and door manners. Its just not worth the risk regardless of how well trained they are.

Do you walk your dog near a road/motorway for example with a leash? I do- it doesn't mean they pull or behave badly but I don't want a random incident to mean my dogs end up under a car. I think of the crate as the same thing. One of my dogs was a car chaser and now does not even LOOK at cars but that one in particular is crated before I have trades people come in because I am not one to test my training when it risks my dogs life, just as she does not have off lead rights within cooooeeee of a road, even though she has not chased a car in 6 years. (NB car chasing occurred on lead).

When there is a safety concern my dogs get crated... when its a training issue my dogs get trained. Also just because they are in a crate doesn't mean you don't do training- my dogs had to be trained not to bark at tradies- they got treats for being calm etc, just like you would have done with your dog.

If I don't have a crate in these situations I tether my dog because once again their safety is paramount, and they know a bed on the ground means the same thing as a crate. So often they don't even realise they are tethered lol. Just like they hardly realise the crate door is open or locked.

IMO- no ones ideal dog is scared of fireworks....... but sometimes you deal with what you get

Thanks this makes a lot of sense. I am seeing that crate training eliminates a lot of risk - and I know what you mean because whilst I have confidence that my dog will walk beside me and stop at roads without me saying anything, I still don't take that risk and I keep him on a lead except for in areas where there are no cars and if there was a car you could see it from miles away and we do that to try and train him road safety (and wouldn't do it if his recall wasn't apparently perfect). But I guess what I really wanted to know was, is it better for the dog? Like obviously if it stops your dog from attacking a lawn mower that's an immeasurable benefit. But say your dog lived for 15 years, was never crated and never attacked any lawn mowers or annoyed tradespeople or left your property when the gates were opened, would they still have been better off had they been crated - just like is having that caged den something that makes a dog happier overall than just having a normal bed etc?

[wuffles]

One of mine is crate trained and the other isn't.

My older rescue boy came to us well behaved and toilet trained. He does have a crate but it's so big that it doesn't fit in our car or lounge room, therefore it doesn't get used.

We used the crate when we got our puppy, for toilet training and confinement overnight when she was a baby. I use it to separate them when they eat bones (older boy outside, girl in her crate). These days it sits in the lounge room, both dogs use it (despite the fact it's way too small for my big dog). It gets taken to all our obedience and agility trials and I prefer it to tethering anyday.

[Red Fox]

And yeah SecretKei - most of the Mal's I know at our training club need to be crated even as adults - they are just too reactive and waayyy too "on". We have one who is at international competition level, and whilst with his handler he is something else, he is not a dog that can just be left to his own devices. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I definitely see a place for crates, but do the people who are knowledgeable about crate training think that they can ever get better results by not crating - or is it a your dog will always be better with crating no matter what type strategy?

Jacqui, are you still training at ASC? I'm guessing you're referring to Kian? Awesome dog, very similar lines to my pup (actually he's a litter brother to her mother, Kastra).

In answer to your question I do think crating can help with training. You can use it to socially isolate the dog from you for a period before and after training (ie making it very black and white for the dog). You can use it to allow the dog to ramp up before training -without eating your car!- and to process thought after a training session. (Which IMO speeds up the learning process).

If you plan on competing later down the track you will find a crate useful as there is a lot of waiting around for the dog.

[Kavik]

SecretKei touches on another point.

When competing, you are there all day, but you are only competing for a short period of time. I find crating very useful as it provides a familiar place where my dog can relax and sleep when we are not competing or preparing to compete. This means that my dog can preserve his energy for when he needs it, relax and sleep and be comfortable, instead of staying excited by the environment/stimulation at the trial and using up all his energy by just being there. Also there are times you cannot be with your dog at a trial (such as walking the course in agility) and I like knowing that other dogs can't come up and pester my dog while I am gone.

[Cavstar]

I think that as dog owners we just need to use common sense & do what works best for our dogs and ourselves. I don't think anything that you listed is a fad.. just tried and tested methods.

[Podengo]

SecretKei touches on another point.

When competing, you are there all day, but you are only competing for a short period of time. I find crating very useful as it provides a familiar place where my dog can relax and sleep when we are not competing or preparing to compete. This means that my dog can preserve his energy for when he needs it, relax and sleep and be comfortable, instead of staying excited by the environment/stimulation at the trial and using up all his energy by just being there. Also there are times you cannot be with your dog at a trial (such as walking the course in agility) and I like knowing that other dogs can't come up and pester my dog while I am gone.

Some dogs would just get too tired if they were out with their owners all day watching agility, at least if they are in their crate you know they are safe and have the opportunity to rest (and won't remodel your car). Tethering is not really an option, many clubs here don't allow you to tether your dog as it's a safety hazard.