Personal Protection Gsds

[Nekhbet]

I think we both mean that prey etc in conjunction with other factors create a calm, solid bite. There really is always going to be more going on then one pure drive to create a bite.

[Yesmaam]

Where I dont totally disagree with this statement, I would like to point out to you that when a prey animal bites (in prey drive) it will also often shake the prey in order to kill it. I think that the shaking can hardly be called CALM.

So to follow on from that, do you suggest that those animals that shake are of a poor nerve?

If you are referring to dogs that shake a sleeve, potentially yes. Poor training can result in shaking but generally those types of dogs are the same that shift and growl when being driven on the sleeve or even pop off or dont close their mouths during a courage test and fly off the sleeve. I have seen this many times over with Dobes and Mals. Generally, these types of dogs won't bite with a full solid calm grip (that wasnt a breed specific comment btw) as genetically they can't handle the pressure.

[MonElite]

No, I'm not talking about Mals and Dobes on the sleave. I'm commenting on your general statement about animals in prey drive having a CALM grip. Shaking is part of killing and its only natural that the animal does it, especially when it grabs a small prey.

If a wolf grabs a rabbit I have no doubt it will shake it to kill it. I don't think its safe to assume that the said wolf has a poor nerve costume just because it shakes the prey.

Thats all.

[Erny]

I was thinking along the lines of MonElite too. On a different platform, but I was thinking about my boy when he is mucking about with his soft toy having fun by himself - here's an example picture :

This is in different context to what is being discussed in this thread, but I can't help but agree with MonElite that shaking the prey item can't mean the dog is weak on nerve. Perhaps it means the dog doesn't have "Civilian Drive" but then that could be a reflection of the dog's training too. But I don't think it should automatically go to meaning "weak on nerve".

Unless I have misunderstood the direction of your post, Yesmaam? I am open to being corrected.

Although I freely admit that my boy is a wuss, especially if you nearly step on his foot :rolleyes: lol.

ETA: No wombat was harmed in the making of this photo.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

It comes down to the predominant drive of the dog to take that bite in the first place. Then there will be other factors both genetic and environmental that dictate what then happens from when the dog engages the decoy/sleeve/toy whatever to when it outs. Dogs that take sleeves in prey you will find will then hug a slipped sleeve and if allowed to, will lay there and start chewing on it. There are dogs that thrash their heads while on a sleeve but that doesnt say the bite isnt full or 100% prey either.

[Yesmaam]

No, I'm not talking about Mals and Dobes on the sleave. I'm commenting on your general statement about animals in prey drive having a CALM grip. Shaking is part of killing and its only natural that the animal does it, especially when it grabs a small prey.

If a wolf grabs a rabbit I have no doubt it will shake it to kill it. I don't think its safe to assume that the said wolf has a poor nerve costume just because it shakes the prey.

Thats all.

yes yes but wolves for 99.9% of the time hunt large prey in packs where shaking isn’t an option (Elk, caribou, bison, deer etc...), but in saying that they are opportunistic animals and will catch smaller animals if they have to.

Generally, shaking isn’t an option for large prey. In this instance, the bite that kills is the bite around the throat, full solid and calm, while others also hold the prey down, again, full solid and calm. I don’t really need to explain this, just jump on utube as there are plenty of videos to show you.

Re:I don't think its safe to assume that the said wolf has a poor nerve costume just because it shakes the prey.

Yes, but in terms of SchH, a dog that shakes the sleeve is generally the same type of dog who also shifts on the sleeve or bites with a shallow grip and is sometimes vocal (take note of the word generally). These dogs are generally weaker in nerve and the pressure of being on the sleeve shows it to you. They are usually vocal throughout all of the pressure phases in the C work and a simple drive with the correct amount of pressure and a stick hit will expose the rest to a judge for you. That is the beauty of SchH - It is an open forum for handlers to showcase their dogs, nothing more and nothing less. People will always like different dogs for different reasons and having the ability to see the different dogs is again another great aspect of the sport. It isn’t meant to be some kind of "real" this or "real" that, it is merely a temperament test. What people do after that is their own decision but SchH gives people a platform to start on and without it we wouldn't have the great working dogs we do today in any arena.

Anyway, we have gone way off topic here. All I wanted to know from Bobby the Samoyed was what kind of dogs he was referring to, as the ones in the kennel he mentioned he liked were littered with sportdog titles....

[Jessca]

I was thinking along the lines of MonElite too. On a different platform, but I was thinking about my boy when he is mucking about with his soft toy having fun by himself - here's an example picture :

This is in different context to what is being discussed in this thread, but I can't help but agree with MonElite that shaking the prey item can't mean the dog is weak on nerve. Perhaps it means the dog doesn't have "Civilian Drive" but then that could be a reflection of the dog's training too. But I don't think it should automatically go to meaning "weak on nerve".

Unless I have misunderstood the direction of your post, Yesmaam? I am open to being corrected.

Although I freely admit that my boy is a wuss, especially if you nearly step on his foot :rolleyes: lol.

ETA: No wombat was harmed in the making of this photo.

My girl is the same, when she is playing by herself she crazily shakes her toys around (see example picture of her nuttyness).

Although still only young, she is far from "weak on nerve". She has a full mouth, calm grip. She does occasionally shake if playing with a tug (learnt behaviour as she did it once and ripped it out of our hands, so she now knows it can get her the toy) but it is not due to her nerves.

Anyways back to topic... And more cute puppy pics are needed :D