Nekhbet Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Nekhbet, I totally agree with the type of dog you describe for protection training, but unfortunately not all involved in security dog training train that type of dog and tend to often strengthen the confidence in nervy reactive dogs to produce what they consider is strength and courage usually described as sharpness and civil aggression. In time, these people get a false impression of what a good is and unless a dog naturally wants to lunge on the leash and bite everyone, they believe a stable dog is then crap with no protective traits?Sharp dogs with civil aggression as they describe what is essentially a fear biter, can't be used in Schutzhund because they lack stability and handler control, infact it would be difficult to get one of these dogs onto the trial field without the dog taking an aggressive lunge at someone on the pathway to the field gate, so a GSD that can't pass a breed suitability test then becomes a better dog than one that can That type of dog you describe is really not good for anyone or lacks a handler with the experience to control it properly. The problem with looking at an adult dogs behavior is you may not necessarily be looking at a true picture of this dogs behavior or what it will pass on. I do wonder how many potentially great dogs have been ruined by poor handling and training, written off as rubbish and aggressive when in fact they were just in the wrong hands. I know there are cowboys in protection, oh how I know. I had one dog dumped on me once and the end result was horrific - the dog was dangerous to the point of one day I had to yell for my brother and partner to go shut themselves in the house. Yes I do agree, and it's a byproduct of really no benchmark standard especially here in Victoria where it's limited. If it was out in the open for scrutiny like it used to be at least there would be quality control. There is a difference between civil aggression and just a flat out crap dog which is what you're describing. I have seen some incredibly steely nerved dogs that have no interest in prey when staring at a decoy, you can see it's pure focus. But the dogs are controllable, out perfectly and pay no heed to bystanders. You are correct to say that not all dogs who have passed Schutzhund trials and gained titles have the right nerve for real protection training, but those dogs although have passed Schutzhund trialling won't excel at it either. High scoring dogs in Sch3 protection phase will generally have the nerve required for real protection training, any of the top level WUSV competition dogs we don't get here in Australia to see other than Fax vom Grenzganger about 10 years ago imported as an old retired dog will have the desired breed traits for real protection work. Let's not confuse a Sch3 titled showline dog, that's not a competition dog comparison, neither would a Sch3 showline dog win a world title.Although not all Sch titled dogs will have the right traits for real protection training, a good dog that has will pass Sch testing regardless how good it's assumed protection quality may be, if the dog can't also display stability, trainabilty and handler control to pass Sch testing, it's a crap dog and doesn't need to be reproduced. When you look at a pedigree unfortunately you don't get the scores and comments about a dogs Sch test. Many are simply Sch 1 to push them through - now was that an excellent performance or did the dog scrape through for the sake of paperwork? I'm not knocking schutzhund, god KNOWS we need some sort of benchmark for working animals :laugh: but I think the point is that people should always ask questions and see as many of the dogs, if only videos, when wanting to make an investment. I've seen great dogs on paper, look at videos/real life and find they're not really all they're cracked up to be or see behavioral traits I personally don't want in a dog. But I agree 100% if the dog can't possess stability and intelligence it shouldnt reproduce! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bianca.a Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Thanks guys, I am already super impressed with him! Food drive is out of this world! Jen, that's cool how they are related! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Jen, that's cool how they are related You will find that a lot in working animals here in Australia as there are, in the scheme of things, so few. Malinois are a bit too but there are people bringing new blood in at least to expand the gene pool. It's something I'm thinking of doing as well, at least one litter from imported semen and see how they go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bianca.a Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes I am slowing realising that. My girl is all working lines on her dams side and a complete mish-mash of the sires side . Just realised recently that my friends GSD is related to Molly as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&m Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 There is a difference between civil aggression and just a flat out crap dog which is what you're describing. I have seen some incredibly steely nerved dogs that have no interest in prey when staring at a decoy, you can see it's pure focus. But the dogs are controllable, out perfectly and pay no heed to bystanders. Nekhbet, It's funny you mention that and the amount of supposed experienced trainers who miss it completely. I too have seen exactly that, high prey driven dogs stop dead in their tracks facing a decoy and stare them out in a tail high combative stance. The decoy cannot get prey drive from the dog and the dog is deemed to be scared of the decoy for not engaging in prey, the dog is actually seeing the decoy as a threat, isn't interested in prey games and is essentally contemplating a fight........these are the dogs easily ruined at Schutzhund clubs when the decoy's don't recognise the makings of true social aggression in a young dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Nekhbet, It's funny you mention that and the amount of supposed experienced trainers who miss it completely. I too have seen exactly that, high prey driven dogs stop dead in their tracks facing a decoy and stare them out in a tail high combative stance. The decoy cannot get prey drive from the dog and the dog is deemed to be scared of the decoy for not engaging in prey, the dog is actually seeing the decoy as a threat, isn't interested in prey games and is essentally contemplating a fight........these are the dogs easily ruined at Schutzhund clubs when the decoy's don't recognise the makings of true social aggression in a young dog. You'll know what it is if and when the dog takes a bite. A quick snip snip snip of the sleeve when pushed or just a bad front toothed bite .... nup bad and training needs to go back quite a few steps or reassess the animals suitability. Quick hard bite and you're onto a winner - for protection. No point having a Sch dog that spits a slipped sleeve and goes in for round 2 Last dog I saw had little to no prey in there. It was a silent, staring dog and when it engaged dear god ... It did it in such a calm, confident manner. Even passing the car the dog just stared at you quietly. Never jumping that blokes fence I can tell you But would never be a good sport dog, just not interested in that type of thing. Schutzhund is a sport. If you want clean methodical bites then a lot of prey work will do that. They're not interested in dogs that will re-engage the decoy or take leg/shoulder bites, but then again thats not what it's about. I think some dog's are just in the wrong job :laugh: but then again that comes down to ensuring people choose the right lines, and not because the dogs sire/dam are really 'awesomely hard' etc. If you want a sport dog, buy a sport dog. My pups sister was a total sportdog ... prey prey prey all the way, LOVED everyone and everything and just wanted to keep going. She's ready to start her Sch1 test at 15 months old, nice solid grip too even in pure prey. My dog though, has the drive but she's gone past just preywork. KNPV lines. Edited January 16, 2012 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Diesel's grandfather was like that. Very serious dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Diesel's grandfather was like that. Very serious dog. Yes, the type of dog where you wave a toy at their face in an animated fashion and all you get back is a very quiet, hard look of 'are you kidding me ...' aaaand then just back away slowly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Definitely very different look to a dog working in prey. Unfortunately I don't have any digital photos of any of Diesel's relatives - I only had a normal camera back then (and I am not the best photographer so they are not great anyway :laugh: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Schutzhund is a sport. If you want clean methodical bites then a lot of prey work will do that. They're not interested in dogs that will re-engage the decoy or take leg/shoulder bites, but then again thats not what it's about. If you want a sport dog, buy a sport dog. My pups sister was a total sportdog ... prey prey prey all the way, LOVED everyone and everything and just wanted to keep going. She's ready to start her Sch1 test at 15 months old, nice solid grip too even in pure prey. My dog though, has the drive but she's gone past just preywork. KNPV lines. Don't forget that KNPV is also a sport, just like ring "sport" or any other alternative dog sport. There are good dogs and bad dogs in all but the key difference between those and SchH is that SchH is the internationally recognised temperament test. There are different rules for different sports and re-engaging decoy's, shoulder or leg bites is just training. Bite suits are just an extension of the sleeve and high prey dogs can sail through these sports as well..... It's all in the development of the dog............ Re: "nice solid grip too even in pure prey". All solid full calm grips are in prey drive. There can be other components before the bite but for it to be full, calm and solid nature says the dog must be in prey drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Diesel's grandfather was like that. Very serious dog. Yes, the type of dog where you wave a toy at their face in an animated fashion and all you get back is a very quiet, hard look of 'are you kidding me ...' aaaand then just back away slowly Definitely very different look to a dog working in prey. Unfortunately I don't have any digital photos of any of Diesel's relatives - I only had a normal camera back then (and I am not the best photographer so they are not great anyway :laugh: ) You guys forget that dogs are supposed to be high prey animals....... If it's not there then something is genetically missing from the dog. Edited January 17, 2012 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have a pup from Raennik (WL breeder in QLD), so far he is amazing, so so confident. Bianca i didn't realise your boy was from Raennik, no wonder he is so beautiful!!! Loving the pics of all the sheps in this thread! Great to see some real examples of the breed! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Diesel's grandfather was like that. Very serious dog. Yes, the type of dog where you wave a toy at their face in an animated fashion and all you get back is a very quiet, hard look of 'are you kidding me ...' aaaand then just back away slowly Definitely very different look to a dog working in prey. Unfortunately I don't have any digital photos of any of Diesel's relatives - I only had a normal camera back then (and I am not the best photographer so they are not great anyway :laugh: ) You guys forget that dogs are supposed to be high prey animals....... If it's not there then something is genetically missing from the dog. As I said earlier I know some security people who prefer to have not a lot of prey drive. Why? I'm not all that sure, they told me it was because they preferred a calmer dog who wasn't always on the go. As my focus is sports, I would prefer to have a good amount of prey drive, gives you more to work with and more options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessca Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Of course I don't mind :) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=603818 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591149 :D They have great grandparents in common, Vonforrell Amber (IID) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=414584 and Fax Vom Grenzgänger http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=123934 my boys sire http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=740383 Lovemesideways and Bianca.a both of your pups are gorgeous!!! They are both closely related to my girl (I'll put up a pic when I'm on the computer). They are great lines!! I highly recommend Raennik!! If it wasn't for Leigh we wouldnt have gotten our girl! I train with a few dogs with those sort of lines and am very impressed with them! (although I don't have much exp when it comes to GSD's) ETA- Here is our Fluffball - 1IMG_0859 by kalexte, on Flickr 1IMG_7880 by kalexte, on Flickr 1IMG_7947 - Copy by kalexte, on Flickr Edited January 17, 2012 by Jessca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There are good dogs and bad dogs in all but the key difference between those and SchH is that SchH is the internationally recognised temperament test. predominantly for the GSD - saying that it's not really that internationally recognised when Australia has a massive bee in its bonnet about it as does the GSDC... but anyhoo ... In other breeds, other sports and lineage that predominantly participated and excelled in sports like KNPV/ringsport etc are also accepted. Also some breeds excel over the GSD in that particular sport or endevour, or it's more popular in that country hence you will find less dogs with Sch titles and more with KNPV/Ringsport etc All solid full calm grips are in prey drive. There can be other components before the bite but for it to be full, calm and solid nature says the dog must be in prey drive. You guys forget that dogs are supposed to be high prey animals....... If it's not there then something is genetically missing from the dog. So a dog can only have a full mouth, solid grip only in prey drive? I wont agree with that and I've seen some pretty shitty grips in prey too particularly those that like to chew on their prey items instead of grip because they're so hyped up. They've also bounced off or spat the sleeve when a bit of pressure has been applied as their prey drive just cant hold them there. Prey can be quality over quantity and doesnt have the be the predominant force exploding forth from the dog every single moment and in everything it does. The more dogs people see across the board of different working lines they should see the difference between prey and other drives within a dog. A dog doesnt have to chase everything that moves to be a good dog. It just wont make the best sporting dog in all probability and that just makes it a dog more developed for other uses :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) So a dog can only have a full mouth, solid grip only in prey drive? I wont agree with that and I've seen some pretty shitty grips in prey too particularly those that like to chew on their prey items instead of grip because they're so hyped up. They've also bounced off or spat the sleeve when a bit of pressure has been applied as their prey drive just cant hold them there Don't misinterpret what I am saying. There are many components to a dog biting, the actual bite itself being one of them. Dogs are prey animals and like all prey animals, for the bite to be full, calm and solid the bite itself must be in prey drive. This has been well documented for many years in the animal world and as I said, nature governs this not anyones opinion. Your example has nothing to do with what drive the dog is in. Bouncing off a sleeve etc.. is generally a genetic nerve strength issue, along with chewing (shifting on the sleeve) or dropping off the sleeve when being driven. You can have a dog with the highest degree of prey drive chew or drop off a sleeve if the genetic nerve isnt strong enough to handle the pressure of a good drive. Edited January 17, 2012 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Of course I don't mind :) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=603818 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591149 :D They have great grandparents in common, Vonforrell Amber (IID) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=414584 and Fax Vom Grenzgänger http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=123934 my boys sire http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=740383 Lovemesideways and Bianca.a both of your pups are gorgeous!!! They are both closely related to my girl (I'll put up a pic when I'm on the computer). They are great lines!! I highly recommend Raennik!! If it wasn't for Leigh we wouldnt have gotten our girl! I train with a few dogs with those sort of lines and am very impressed with them! (although I don't have much exp when it comes to GSD's) ETA- Here is our Fluffball - 1IMG_0859 by kalexte, on Flickr 1IMG_7880 by kalexte, on Flickr 1IMG_7947 - Copy by kalexte, on Flickr A beautiful looking girl Jessca :) I would love to post some pics of my new girl here and hijack this thread :laugh: She does have some workers further back but she herself is not a working shep. Big sable mummy and BIG black/tan daddy :) Her finishing weight vet thinks will be up around the 40kg mark :) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Of course I don't mind :) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=603818 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591149 :D They have great grandparents in common, Vonforrell Amber (IID) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=414584 and Fax Vom Grenzgänger http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=123934 my boys sire http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=740383 Lovemesideways and Bianca.a both of your pups are gorgeous!!! They are both closely related to my girl (I'll put up a pic when I'm on the computer). They are great lines!! I highly recommend Raennik!! If it wasn't for Leigh we wouldnt have gotten our girl! I train with a few dogs with those sort of lines and am very impressed with them! (although I don't have much exp when it comes to GSD's) ETA- Here is our Fluffball - 1IMG_0859 by kalexte, on Flickr 1IMG_7880 by kalexte, on Flickr 1IMG_7947 - Copy by kalexte, on Flickr :thumbsup: Beautiful!! Who're her parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessca Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ]A beautiful looking girl Jessca :) I would love to post some pics of my new girl here and hijack this thread :laugh: She does have some workers further back but she herself is not a working shep. Big sable mummy and BIG black/tan daddy :) Her finishing weight vet thinks will be up around the 40kg mark :) :D Thanks GSF! I wouldn't mind pics (but it's not my thread ) :thumbsup: Beautiful!! Who're her parents? http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=735035 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There are many components to a dog biting, the actual bite itself being one of them. Dogs are prey animals and like all prey animals, for the bite to be full, calm and solid the bite itself must be in prey drive. This has been well documented for many years in the animal world and as I said, nature governs this not anyones opinion. Where I dont totally disagree with this statement, I would like to point out to you that when a prey animal bites (in prey drive) it will also often shake the prey in order to kill it. I think that the shaking can hardly be called CALM. So to follow on from that, do you suggest that those animals that shake are of a poor nerve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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