Puppy Farmers Advertising As "registered Breeders"

[toy*dog]

That particular breeder has been around a long time and is a registered breeder .Just not an ANKC registered breeder . They have recently completed the new kennel and why you will hear about them more.

how long? how long has AAPDB been around not that long really. started up on the internet to support and to legitimise people who want to breed dogs solely for profit.

You had best get used to it . If you don't start qualifying who you are registered with then its no longer what it used to be - assumed it was ANKC. and like it or not some people think that ANKC registered is the lesser one.

these days thats exactly what i do, i explain the difference, mentioning a "registered breeder" doesn't cut it anymore in today's society. So its best to mention a registered ANKC pedigree purebred breeder and i add that people need to screen their breeder to make sure they are not out to breed dogs solely for profit hence the term in my books "Puppy farmers" and give tips on what questions to ask to find that out. its a detailed operation these days. but the hobby breeder as i said in my first post is getting mixed up in with farmers and this ticks me off because no education is out there to tell the difference and it really needs to be promoted more strongly through the media. our state body says that we all need to be promoting it starts with us as breeders when we sell our puppies but in my opinion its not really enough. its like a strong tide and we are all fruitlessly trying to paddle against it!!

I have no problem with registries that are there for a purpose like working dog registries or registries to work towards ANKC recognition to work towards defining a new breed but i have got a problem with registries that can welcome people who breed dogs not to a standard like the one i mention therefore deviating from the original breed and making up a new standard themselves, they mention traditional colours in the breed of dog they are going to add colours not acceptable, when we start accepting different colours and different features we can no longer call that dog the breed that its supposed to be thats why we have ANKC and state bodies in the first place. and bagging breeders who want to improve their selected breed and breed to a standard as set by the authority or custodian of all pedigree breeds namely ANKC and their state bodies and they do that by showing dogs is outrageous to suggest that. but thats what the media has portrayed now and now it is fueled by people who want to manipulate the market purely for profit.

i see this as working against not only us as an organistion but against what it means to have a breed of dog, in years to come i can see that if these sorts of groups are allowed to get stronger we will see the end of pedigree purebred breeds altogether.

No point in complaining about it - its here and now best to adjust our language or be promoting those we don't want to promote every time we recommend someone use a registered breeder .

i've sort of put it in here in general to let the public see it too what we are talking about, as this site is very well known now so its better than nothing, and i am talking in here as sort of support as i am very upset about the whole thing as others in here have indicated they are. Any suggestions on how we alter our language? what do we now say? other than what i offered above. how do you get around people who are just out to promote their bank account and not really interested in being custodians of a particular pedigree purebred breed that has taken hundreds and in some cases thousands of years by man to develop? i see these type of people a threat for our dogs and a threat to ourselves im sorry to say.

and its all got to do with ignorance, media portraying us the way they want society to portray us in a negative untrue light. it really gets my dander up.

[toy*dog]

This association scares me.....

especially seeing as the language they use is all about being responsible breeders but that they can sell to "approved" pet stores.

This association seems to have been set up just so that puppy farmers, breeding cross breeds can say they are responsible registered breeders (and thus suck the public in).

bingo. they have alot of well known farmers in that organisation. They are all trying to legitimise themselves yes. in the area they are in most of them, as i've been saying for years, they have the support of the vets down there as well as the council. the vets welcome farmers as it is more business for them and the council get their cut out of the money too. pay a permit and then pay to register how many dogs they have as well, its big money.

trying to go against big money and big industry is a losing battle.

[toy*dog]

what i thought too, reading about this new breeder we are talking about, they say they are going to be the best in Australia yadda yadda yadda, and mention other breeders doign the same thing reg with the same organisation, how many others are there in that particular breed reg with AAPDB so they can say they are bettering the bloodlines through research of pedigrees and i wonder if the dogs they imported are AKC and they've just transferred them over. did they tell the breeders they will be breeding AKC or ANKC registered dogs meanwhile they had no intention? i'd be pretty mad if i sold a dog for breeding only to find out it was going to be reg with AAPDB.

[Steve]

how long? how long has AAPDB been around not that long really. started up on the internet to support and to legitimise people who want to breed dogs solely for profit.

Very long - they were the first in with the AAPDB but used to be ANKC - they dont believe that is the motivation for their organisation and nor do many others. Just because you think it doesn't make it so.

Just work out what you need to say so you are sending people to breeders you are trying to get them to avoid.

[Steve]

This association scares me.....

especially seeing as the language they use is all about being responsible breeders but that they can sell to "approved" pet stores.

This association seems to have been set up just so that puppy farmers, breeding cross breeds can say they are responsible registered breeders (and thus suck the public in).

bingo. they have alot of well known farmers in that organisation. They are all trying to legitimise themselves yes. in the area they are in most of them, as i've been saying for years, they have the support of the vets down there as well as the council. the vets welcome farmers as it is more business for them and the council get their cut out of the money too. pay a permit and then pay to register how many dogs they have as well, its big money.

trying to go against big money and big industry is a losing battle.

So what is the difference between what they are doing to legitimise themselves and what is done to legitimise any other group? Don t see the ANKC making their breeders do yearly vet audits or inspecting peple BEFORE they are made full members.

There are some very large volume ANKC breeders and some sell their puppies to pet shops.

[mita]

Good on your for posting, toy dog. You brought up important issues.

The word 'registered' needs to be hyphenated, given that there seems to be other registries for dogs.....as well as the usual Council registration.

I'd like to see ANKC breeders, describe themselves as an 'ANKC-registered breeder'. Can't do much about the other claimants to a registry that have grown up, except to make the ANKC brand stand out, via statement & public relations.

The word 'registered', on its own, doesn't mean any more than that someone, or something, is listed on some system.

I'n noticing some interesting use of language from the 'other registries'.

Like, was that the actual words used by that 'other-registered breeder'... that they're 'going to' produce the best dogs?

If so, that's the Gunna Syndrome which leaves an impression that something has already been done just because someone has said it will be done.

I also agree with you about the risk to ethical ANKC-registered breeders, that their puppies will be acquired by someone who'll place it on one of these other 'registries', muddying the tracks of a breed that's already been developed with knowledge, effort and considerable history.

[Steve]

Much of this has been produced by the system.

There have been quite large exemptions given to people who have been members of Vicdogs for example where they are able to own 10 fertile dogs without needing a licence and there are reductions with registrations and exemptions with desexing - similar in NSW and Queensland - though NSW and Victoria are state wide Queensland are council by council.

Some people don't want to be members of the ANKC for a variety of reasons.

You have to remember that some people have had to move shires to be able to keep an entire dog because only those who have ANKC membership are able to keep their dogs entire in some shires. Up until now the ANKC has had a monopoly on this exemption process because they promised to police their members and ensure they were following regs, laws and by laws. Whether or not they can or do is open to discussion but that is the premise that their members are able to have the exemptions.

In order for people to ever be able to have an equal chance at being able to breed dogs there has to eventually be other organisations which also have these exemptions. There are various reasons for this - some obvious some not so obvious but the point is that if ever someone who breeds non registered purebreds or crossbred dogs will ever have equity and the same rights to choose to breed their dogs as those who are ANKC members they have to belong to another org which will promise to police their members and provide them the same rights as those who choose to be ANKC members. We may feel that this is a good thing but there are more and more everyday who don't agree and it has to change.

In order for that to happen - based on the criteria for acceptance as an org which will receive these benefits for their members .the organisation has to register their members and register the dogs their members breed.

On the other side of it of course for decades we and welfare orgs have been promoting registered breeders and not qualifying who they are registered with - like it or not some registries have been around longer than the ANKC and there has always been other registries and other registered breeders who are not members of the ANKC. Some have been so far against the ANKC that if a dog has ever been on their registry it is disqualified from being able to be registered on theirs. They wont even allow dual registration. As the world becomes easier to communicate with and trade with there will be more and more dogs which are registered with registries the ANKC don't recognise too.

Put all that together with new laws which have to have breeders registered as breeders at council, and register puppies and microchip as they are advertising and you get more and more registered breeders who are likely to become more abundant as our numbers slide.

Of course you also have to factor in the reality that some people actually want to avoid ANKC registered breeders - which is why the breeder in question in the OP is able to sell more purebred pet puppies at 4 times the price of her ANKC registered competitors to a world wide market place.

The ANKC have a formidable task on their hands to promote their dogs, and their breeders and one thing we need to be sure of is that if we are advising people of where we think it is best to source a puppy that we are specific about which registry we think someone needs to belong to or we may find we are advising them to shop at the exact opposite place to what we mean.

[toy*dog]

how long? how long has AAPDB been around not that long really. started up on the internet to support and to legitimise people who want to breed dogs solely for profit.

Very long - they were the first in with the AAPDB but used to be ANKC - they dont believe that is the motivation for their organisation and nor do many others. Just because you think it doesn't make it so.

Just work out what you need to say so you are sending people to breeders you are trying to get them to avoid.

i think its obvious why this organisation exists. blind freddy can see it, well at least people with a bit of experience up their sleeves. their statements in their website all points to money. and i knew they'd have a beef with ANKC or shows or show people or something in the pedigree world. somehow they've gotten a very bad experience as do some people but why take it out on the dogs and on the sport itself. just because you get treated bad or have a few words alienate a whole group? i've heard this over and over again over many years.

[toy*dog]

Good on your for posting, toy dog. You brought up important issues.

thanks mita.

[toy*dog]

So what is the difference between what they are doing to legitimise themselves and what is done to legitimise any other group? Don t see the ANKC making their breeders do yearly vet audits or inspecting peple BEFORE they are made full members.

There are some very large volume ANKC breeders and some sell their puppies to pet shops.

the difference is the sole purpose they exist is entirely for money to corner the market on puppies. and its working having a negative campaign coupled with the media these days. yes there are large volume ANKC breeders who also do the same thing in some instances thats why i always say, to screen your breeder as there are farmers in our group too solely out to make a profit.

[Steve]

So what is the difference between what they are doing to legitimise themselves and what is done to legitimise any other group? Don t see the ANKC making their breeders do yearly vet audits or inspecting peple BEFORE they are made full members.

There are some very large volume ANKC breeders and some sell their puppies to pet shops.

the difference is the sole purpose they exist is entirely for money to corner the market on puppies. and its working having a negative campaign coupled with the media these days. yes there are large volume ANKC breeders who also do the same thing in some instances thats why i always say, to screen your breeder as there are farmers in our group too solely out to make a profit.

But that's not true - the breeder you are speaking of in the OP is every bit as keen to get it right as you are and her original intention wasn't only to make money . You assume that anyone doing it differently to you doesn't care about the dogs or what they breed - there are those type of people in both groups.

The negative campaign is being fueled by just as many in one group as the other because no one can say what a breeder's motivation is for breeding . We will get beaten because we must only breed for a ribbon and dont care about the welfare of the dogs and they will get belted because they don't breed for a ribbon so they must breed only for money and not care about the welfare of the dogs.

We need to promote what we do and not be caught up in comparing and making judgments when we don't want judgments on ourselves.

[Steve]

how long? how long has AAPDB been around not that long really. started up on the internet to support and to legitimise people who want to breed dogs solely for profit.

Very long - they were the first in with the AAPDB but used to be ANKC - they dont believe that is the motivation for their organisation and nor do many others. Just because you think it doesn't make it so.

Just work out what you need to say so you are sending people to breeders you are trying to get them to avoid.

i think its obvious why this organisation exists. blind freddy can see it, well at least people with a bit of experience up their sleeves. their statements in their website all points to money. and i knew they'd have a beef with ANKC or shows or show people or something in the pedigree world. somehow they've gotten a very bad experience as do some people but why take it out on the dogs and on the sport itself. just because you get treated bad or have a few words alienate a whole group? i've heard this over and over again over many years.

Its called marketing.

[toy*dog]

Up until now the ANKC has had a monopoly on this exemption process because they promised to police their members and ensure they were following regs, laws and by laws. Whether or not they can or do is open to discussion but that is the premise that their members are able to have the exemptions.

in this state they are following through with this, to be able to be registered you have to jump through hoops its not just a matter of signing up anymore like it used to be, they make the new members complete an exam now. and make them sign a declaration i see, got some papers for some pups the other day, they also say they work behind the scenes and most are not aware of what they do, just take it for granted. So they do do a lot in our state. i don't know about your state. they've also introduced a system to weed out the ones who have multiple registrations under different names so an ID system has been brought in they say. i have no problem with this if it does what they promise it will do, so you see they are trying to do something about puppy farmers. can't please all of the people all of the time. its very hard with thousands of members to police it all you have to remember that. They also have a name and shame in their magazine if breeders contravene the code of ethics we are all made to sign. In the last statement by the president he states that a few members have the potential to give us all a bad name. and i think that is true for the most part.

In order for people to ever be able to have an equal chance at being able to breed dogs there has to eventually be other organisations which also have these exemptions. There are various reasons for this - some obvious some not so obvious but the point is that if ever someone who breeds non registered purebreds or crossbred dogs will ever have equity and the same rights to choose to breed their dogs

this is where i've always had a problem, why should people who choose to mate their little cross breed pets be given the same rights and have equality? this is where everything is going wrong these days. in days gone by these dogs were known as mongrel dogs today it is mostly the same, they don't go to the trouble we do you all know this what we go through if breeding dogs are done right won't go into that, now they are bred deliberately and bred for money and now these people who mate their dogs want the same rights as us. the world has gone mad in my eyes.

In order for that to happen - based on the criteria for acceptance as an org which will receive these benefits for their members .the organisation has to register their members and register the dogs their members breed.

and again blind freddy can see why they want to do that that organisation so they can say their members are registered and then they have a right to charge the big bucks for designer dogs cross breeds because they've always wanted to be on an equal par this is their chance now.

Put all that together with new laws which have to have breeders registered as breeders at council, and register puppies and microchip as they are advertising and you get more and more registered breeders who are likely to become more abundant as our numbers slide.

of course they will when they can see that they can get more $$$ for their pups than being ANKC registered which nowadays is a second class citizen. because all of our dogs are unhealthy inbred beasts according to the media and society.

Of course you also have to factor in the reality that some people actually want to avoid ANKC registered breeders - which is why the breeder in question in the OP is able to sell more purebred pet puppies at 4 times the price of her ANKC registered competitors to a world wide market place.

well i rest my case thought that was why. more money eh. huh. 4 times the price and who is going to pay that, they must have rocks in their head the buyers. ofcourse these breeders are claiming they are going to breed healthy pups that are tested but an ANKC reg hobby breeder can do the same thing for quarter of the price.

The ANKC have a formidable task on their hands to promote their dogs, and their breeders and one thing we need to be sure of is that if we are advising people of where we think it is best to source a puppy that we are specific about which registry we think someone needs to belong to or we may find we are advising them to shop at the exact opposite place to what we mean.

the ANKC don't do anything they just advise the state bodies, its up to the state bodies in each state. and i believe that VCA might be leading the way it seems like it. but still there is alot of work to be done.

[toy*dog]

We will get beaten because we must only breed for a ribbon and dont care about the welfare of the dogs and they will get belted because they don't breed for a ribbon so they must breed only for money and not care about the welfare of the dogs.

We need to promote what we do and not be caught up in comparing and making judgments when we don't want judgments on ourselves.

i know of a heck of a lot of breeders that don't only breed for a ribbon steve, thats only part of the equation as i mentioned before. i know from past threads that you don't show yourself either. there is alot of misconceptions about the showring going around.

“A dog show is not a beauty contest. A dog needs to be able to move well and have the right sort of

temperament. Most importantly, the structure, or conformation, of the dog must be sound and show no

signs of ill health or other problems. I am glad to see strict rules are in place to ensure responsible breeding

and showing is practised by breeders throughout Australia.”, states Dr Higgins.

i'd invite judgement on ourselves because most of what's been said to me by some of these breeders is based on heresay and inuendo. and praying on the very ignorant which really gets me upset i hate seeing people being duped. and sweeping statements that has no possibility in being true all because of clever "marketing" as you say. i don't know this breeder we are speaking off, if i was a new owner i'd be very impressed but some of what they say because of my experience has no possibility in being able to be accomplished. Have they tried to get into MDBA? i know for privacy reasons you prolly cannot say. how do you know them?

[toy*dog]

We need to promote what we do and not be caught up in comparing and making judgments when we don't want judgments on ourselves.

why shouldn't we compare? they are sure doing this in their statements on their websites and in their facebook pages bagging us all. telling the public purebred pedigrees are inbred, unhealthy and especially if the breeders shows because its all rigged so why can't we defend ourselves? and say its not true but not bag them. but it is true, why some breed and they may hide it no one ever says they breed for money, and i don't know why its always been a big secret. even in pedigree circles its always been a big secret, i've known some breeders who show, only show to the public the ones in the house meanwhile out the back had a big shed full of dogs selling to petshops and that was their secret business.

so you are right its very hard to distinguish between a breeder who breeds solely for profit as motivation and a hobby breeder out for the breed only.

[Steve]

We will get beaten because we must only breed for a ribbon and dont care about the welfare of the dogs and they will get belted because they don't breed for a ribbon so they must breed only for money and not care about the welfare of the dogs.

We need to promote what we do and not be caught up in comparing and making judgments when we don't want judgments on ourselves.

i know of a heck of a lot of breeders that don't only breed for a ribbon steve, thats only part of the equation as i mentioned before. i know from past threads that you don't show yourself either. there is alot of misconceptions about the showring going around.

"A dog show is not a beauty contest. A dog needs to be able to move well and have the right sort of

temperament. Most importantly, the structure, or conformation, of the dog must be sound and show no

signs of ill health or other problems. I am glad to see strict rules are in place to ensure responsible breeding

and showing is practised by breeders throughout Australia.", states Dr Higgins.

i'd invite judgement on ourselves because most of what's been said to me by some of these breeders is based on heresay and inuendo. and praying on the very ignorant which really gets me upset i hate seeing people being duped. and sweeping statements that has no possibility in being true all because of clever "marketing" as you say. i don't know this breeder we are speaking off, if i was a new owner i'd be very impressed but some of what they say because of my experience has no possibility in being able to be accomplished. Have they tried to get into MDBA? i know for privacy reasons you prolly cannot say. how do you know them?

Of course you know a heck of a lot of breeders who don't only breed for a ribbon - so do I. I don't show myself but I have bred champions - conformation, agility and obedience champions and will again .I also place a lot of importance on conformation .I wasn't saying that what is said is true Im saying it is being said of us as a group just as it is being said of anyone who doesn't breed purebred registered dogs is only breeding for money.

You dont have to come back at me in defense of yourself or the ring - and have a shot at me because I don't personally attend dog shows - you are preaching to the converted.

If they are the breeders I think they are I have met them in person and had several discussion with them as we were introduced to them at the breeding better dogs seminar and also the round table meeting for the RSPCA - and not because they have tried to get into the MDBA . They have nothing what ever to do with me or the MDBA .

[toy*dog]

You assume that anyone doing it differently to you doesn't care about the dogs or what they breed - there are those type of people in both groups.

im not saying they wouldn't care about their dogs and what they are breeding, ofcourse they'd care given that they are going to charge 4 times the price for the pups, ofcourse they'd care. lol its not cheap to import dogs but whose to say what lines these dogs are from and how healthy they are, but the interpretation is, our dogs are imports so there fore better able to produce pups that are not related to each other there fore better. and if you know anything about breeding thats not always the case. i mean a dog could be a grand champion or be imported doesn't mean it is any better than any other dog just because of the fancy title.

[Steve]

We need to promote what we do and not be caught up in comparing and making judgments when we don't want judgments on ourselves.

why shouldn't we compare? they are sure doing this in their statements on their websites and in their facebook pages bagging us all. telling the public purebred pedigrees are inbred, unhealthy and especially if the breeders shows because its all rigged so why can't we defend ourselves? and say its not true but not bag them. but it is true, why some breed and they may hide it no one ever says they breed for money, and i don't know why its always been a big secret. even in pedigree circles its always been a big secret, i've known some breeders who show, only show to the public the ones in the house meanwhile out the back had a big shed full of dogs selling to petshops and that was their secret business.

so you are right its very hard to distinguish between a breeder who breeds solely for profit as motivation and a hobby breeder out for the breed only.

Whatever, but while you are knocking yourself out comparing better think of same way of telling people who they should go to with a phrase or term which identifies you as being different. You cant stop them from calling themselves registered.

[Steve]

You assume that anyone doing it differently to you doesn't care about the dogs or what they breed - there are those type of people in both groups.

im not saying they wouldn't care about their dogs and what they are breeding, ofcourse they'd care given that they are going to charge 4 times the price for the pups, ofcourse they'd care. lol its not cheap to import dogs but whose to say what lines these dogs are from and how healthy they are, but the interpretation is, our dogs are imports so there fore better able to produce pups that are not related to each other there fore better. and if you know anything about breeding thats not always the case. i mean a dog could be a grand champion or be imported doesn't mean it is any better than any other dog just because of the fancy title.

Yet if they were registering their pedigrees with Vicdogs it would be O.K. to say this? Better check no registered breeders are making such claims too.

[toy*dog]

You dont have to come back at me in defense of yourself or the ring - and have a shot at me because I don't personally attend dog shows - you are preaching to the converted.

If they are the breeders I think they are I have met them in person and had several discussion with them as we were introduced to them at the breeding better dogs seminar and also the round table meeting for the RSPCA - and not because they have tried to get into the MDBA . They have nothing what ever to do with me or the MDBA .

im sorry - im not having a shot at you please don't think i am! just sometimes what you write about dog shows and people showing seems to be a bit negative thats all. might be wrong might have interpretted it wrong though. as you know i am passionate about this subject. i know i am preaching to the already converted but discussing in here makes me feel better as im talking to people who sometimes feel the same way i do. And there is that element of the beginner dog owners who come in here to read and learn. this is really for their benefit too, the more we discuss the more people we educate - it is all about education. We might not be talking about the same people though that is a possibility?? there is alot of breeders who come from that area and i know you know which area i talk off. don't want to spell it out here for privacy reasons.

i feel like having a talk to these people having a pleasant conversation to find out why they feel the way they do, because its a darn shame we have lost more people out of the ANKC system really is my way of thinking. I've had to support many breeders before in this area as some have been treated very badly. i know if i attempt to contact i might get met with indifference.

there is a breeder who is new who has been treated awfully in the showring and still they go to shows and still show. made sure i've supported them and offered to have them call me anytime if they need assistance. it makes a big difference. that particular breed is nearly non-existant all because of no support from older breeders and the breed club closed down because there couldn't be any agreement. there's been no new people for many years. and i got all excited when i saw this new person. she's been pushed out of the showring because she won with her lovely dogs and been treated to badly! its very shameful that there are people in the showring going on like this. bad news for the sport and for pedigree dogs!