Powder Puff V's Hairless

[Dellcara]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

I disagree

I don't believe there should be seperation of any breed based on coat/colour if the variation can be produced in a single litter.

[LizT]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

I wouldn't seperate based on colour BB. That would be racist.

[LizT]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

I disagree

I don't believe there should be seperation of any breed based on coat/colour if the variation can be produced in a single litter.

I agree Delcara but it would be nice to see some consistency in the ruling, particularly in breeds that produce both in a litter but are shown separately such as smooth and rough coated Griffons or smooth and long hairs Chihuahuas. Although I dare say numbers are what have dictated the seperate or non seperate classes in these cases???

Edited January 10, 2012 by LizT

[Havasneeze]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

I disagree

I don't believe there should be seperation of any breed based on coat/colour if the variation can be produced in a single litter.

I agree Delcara but it would be nice to see some consistency in the ruling, particularly in breeds that produce both in a litter but are shown separately such as smooth and rough coated Griffons or smooth and long hairs Chihuahuas. Although I dare say numbers are what have dictated the seperate or non seperate classes in these cases???

I can see both sides of all these arguments. There are always going to be throwbacks, no matter how hard you try to eliminate them. Schipperkes are a good example. The standard states: preferred colour is black and there are some who try to breed to that part of the standard by always putting black to black. A friend recently had a litter that produced a cream and we looked long and hard through the pedigrees of both dogs to find a cream in there, 8 generations back!!!

[Vacuna]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. .

You beat me to it - rough and smooth griffons compete against each other. Initially smooths, due to low numbers had an uphill battle competing on an equal footing in the ring although IMHO it has changed now - smooth griffons are much more competitive as they are now seen more often in greater numbers in the show ring.

[Shaar]

It's such a shame the puffs get overlooked, have seen some beautiful ones.

I would like to see them separated but as they are interbred I don't see this happening. You can't breed only hairless, there must be puff in the pedigree.

I plan on getting a puff one day, I know it knocks back my chances of winning but they really are stunning in full coat.

[Vacuna]

I plan on getting a puff one day, I know it knocks back my chances of winning but they really are stunning in full coat.

If more are seen in the ring on a regular basis maybe they might get some recognition in the long term.

[ashaflynn]

In my opinion the hairless and puffs should be shown together - we just need judges to be more informed about the breed and judge a powderpuff correctly. Any good judge will be able to FEEL what they can't see! Believe me ... there have been and still are some amazing examples of the Chinese Crested breed in Powderpuff form - structurally correct, sound and often with better temperaments than the hairless (the puffs always seem to be a lot more laid back than the hairless)

It is incorrect that there 'must' be puffs in a pedigree - the fact is there 'will' always be puffs in a pedigree as it is the powderpuff gene which allows the hairless to survive. The hairless gene is a lethal dominant gene. The hairless possess one hairless gene and one powderpuff gene. The powderpuff only possesses the powderpuff gene. If a puppy embryo inherits two sets of the hairless lethal gene they are generally reabsorbed and never whelped. If on the rate occasion they are whelped they are usually so severly deformed or with such serious problems they will not survive. A puff to puff mating will only produce puffs in a litter but a hairless to hairless will produce both in a litter as will a hairless to puff. There is a misconception that puffs must be used in breeding programs to ensure some hair - however this is incorrect as it is the hairless gene ONLY that dicates the amount of hair or lack of a puppy inherits - the powderpuff gene gives powderpuffs only - not hairy hairless. It does seem that the inclusion of puffs in a breeding program improves the overall soundness and conformation of the hairless type - which makes sense considering the lethal side of the hairless gene - a lot of today's hairless are a lot more structurally sound than the old types of thirty odd years ago.

As a crested breeder and exhibitor who has both types we fought a long uphill battle to get our Puff boy titled and he is absolutely magnificent. In fact the won Best in Show at the 2010 Vic Crested show and RUBOB at the Melb Royal - but boy was it disheartening to see him get beaten over an over again simply because he was a puff. We knew it was going to be difficult but I think even we were surprised just how overlooked the puffs are. However - I think seperating them for showing will only make the problem worse as they would still have to go head to head for Best of Breed - as they are the same breed. Judges will no longer have to consider them against the hairless and compare movement, structure etc until the last part of the process - and if a puff can't win their class over a hairless at present - even if conformation wise they're better how on earth are they going to win BOB? They will be seen as a lesser type of Crested in my opinion and some judges won't take them seriously.

Obviously I have come across a number of judges that are very familiar with the Cresteds and some that do actually appreciate the Puff and judge them as they should - however unfortunately they are few and far between.

[ashaflynn]

I have heard for breeding purposes that the puffs are important and vital to keep the hair coming through at all on the hairless, so im not really sure what the answer is. But id be curious to see what everyone thought.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring. I myself have seen the difference in the coat types of the puffs from thick and covering the whole of the body with veil, to splotchy and thin with small blotches of skin still hairless. So, I would be interested how the differing coats can all be considered 'correct' and at a genetic level how the hairless and the puffs can be shown as one breed, if in fact they are genetically the same.

This is not correct and I don't think what Entourage was eluding to. The coat type allowable for the ring - or for the breed for that matter - is "In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature" This is what the coat of a Powderpuff should be but unfortunately many do not possess the correct coat type and as such will not be shown or if they are are overlooked as it is not correct for the standard. The reference to splotchy thin coats with skin visible would be unclipped/shaved off hairy hairlesses - not puffs. It has also been a problem in the past that the coat care for the Puff's was not really all that up to scratch - due to them not being awarded in the ring against the hairless as much and also lack of knowledge. Puff owners now take great care of their correct coats to maintain the 'veil'. It is however an awful lot of work to maintain a ground length coat in a show dog - particularly if you're not winning much against the hairless. Catch 22 really - and you've got to be dedicated to the breed to keep them in the ring and in front of the judges.

[SparkyTansy]

However - I think seperating them for showing will only make the problem worse as they would still have to go head to head for Best of Breed - as they are the same breed. Judges will no longer have to consider them against the hairless and compare movement, structure etc until the last part of the process - and if a puff can't win their class over a hairless at present - even if conformation wise they're better how on earth are they going to win BOB? They will be seen as a lesser type of Crested in my opinion and some judges won't take them seriously.

I don't think that is how it works if they are judged as two separate breeds. in Collies and in Weims, you will see them both in the line up, they are judged as totally different breeds and they each win a BOB. The only time they compete is for BIG, and yet the two can be bred together and produce rough/smooths and LH and SH.

[Crisovar]

I don't own chinese cresteds but have had this conversation with a few people about powderpuffs. I am definately no expert on cresteds, but am naturally curious. If they are genetically the same (I understand they can be born in the same litter, and just carry extra hair genes) then wouldn't one or the other be considered a fault. I know neither are, and have seen many shown, but am wondering if maybe they should be either split into two types of crested or the breed standard refined.

I have heard for breeding purposes that the puffs are important and vital to keep the hair coming through at all on the hairless, so im not really sure what the answer is. But id be curious to see what everyone thought.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring. I myself have seen the difference in the coat types of the puffs from thick and covering the whole of the body with veil, to splotchy and thin with small blotches of skin still hairless. So, I would be interested how the differing coats can all be considered 'correct' and at a genetic level how the hairless and the puffs can be shown as one breed, if in fact they are genetically the same.

Many people confuse hairy hairless with puffs.

They are a complex breed and it is a great challenge for breeders due to the huge variation in degrees of hairlessness. Puffs are puffs they are fully coated.

[Entourage]

I have heard for breeding purposes that the puffs are important and vital to keep the hair coming through at all on the hairless, so im not really sure what the answer is. But id be curious to see what everyone thought.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring. I myself have seen the difference in the coat types of the puffs from thick and covering the whole of the body with veil, to splotchy and thin with small blotches of skin still hairless. So, I would be interested how the differing coats can all be considered 'correct' and at a genetic level how the hairless and the puffs can be shown as one breed, if in fact they are genetically the same.

This is not correct and I don't think what Entourage was eluding to.

Definitely not what i was eluding to, you do get some correct coated puffs and some terrier coated puffs yes, should the terrier coats be shown? No. They are incorrect, thats why we have a standard. I have mixed feelings about whether they should be bred with also. Our first Crested was a terrier coat powderpuff and really i wished someone had of pulled us aside and said 'listen that dog isnt going to grow a coat' We did have some remarks like 'gee who has been scruffing him up?' He had a lovely temperament, was a great dog to show, behaved well in the ring and really showed his butt off, but the coat did never grow and we pet homed him. This was after id spent $300 on grooming products because i thought i was grooming him wrong. It wasnt until we had bought a powderpuff from different bloodlines that i realised that they had totally different coats as the second dog had the correct veil and undercoat and when matured it reached the ground.

Those with whispy single coats that are patchy, may be quite bald in some areas are hairy hairless. Im not sure of the exhibitors frame of mind whether they think the dogs coat is going to get thicker or they dont believe they could have a hairless so hairy.

[Shaar]

It's the same as many other breeds... Look at the poodle, they should have a very thick, harsh feeling coat yet there are many with sparse soft hair. Obviously it's wrong and you try to breed for a harsher coat.

Very hairy hairless IMO is wrong, you shouldn't have to be borderline shaving off a puff to show. I have seen many dogs overseas with huge shawls around their shoulders when the standard clearly states the body should be hairless.

Yes it looks more glamourous as the more body hair you have, the thicker crest, socks and tail, but many people are breeding cresties who might as well just be puffs with tusks.

I have a question for the crestie people (and others if you have seen one) have you ever come across someone showing a hairless with the facial hair left on? The standard says the face can be left long on both varieties but I have never seen one in the ring.

[Entourage]

It's the same as many other breeds... Look at the poodle, they should have a very thick, harsh feeling coat yet there are many with sparse soft hair. Obviously it's wrong and you try to breed for a harsher coat.

Very hairy hairless IMO is wrong, you shouldn't have to be borderline shaving off a puff to show. I have seen many dogs overseas with huge shawls around their shoulders when the standard clearly states the body should be hairless.

Yes it looks more glamourous as the more body hair you have, the thicker crest, socks and tail, but many people are breeding cresties who might as well just be puffs with tusks.

I have a question for the crestie people (and others if you have seen one) have you ever come across someone showing a hairless with the facial hair left on? The standard says the face can be left long on both varieties but I have never seen one in the ring.

The huge shawled dogs are here too. Recently i was at a show and overheard a conversation between an exhibitor with a newly imported hairless Crested and their friend. The exhibitor was complaining about the amount of hair it had and the friend replied 'well you are showing a coated dog there'

Ive never seen a hairy faced crested being shown, both in hairless or puff. I have heard that there has been some shown in the past. I prefer the clipped and shaved look. Same for the ears on some dogs. If a crested has alot of hair and grows the fringing well then its looks lovely, but some i have, have very little hair on their ears, some bald and some whispy bits on the ends and it looks much tidier if cleaned up for a show.

[Shaar]

I prefer the clean look as well, mine has clipped face and ears. I have heard some people comment that if the ears are clipped there must be something wrong with them, but I just prefer the look of clipped ears, especially on males, it makes them look more 'doggy'. I leave cheek hair on (as it is the only part of him that is white and looks good when he runs and it flows back) and with full ears as well it would be too much hair and start to make him look unbalanced.

[Tambaqui]

I've recently just became involved in the Chinese Crested Breed, and still learning!

My Crested is a Hairy Hairless, but I am personally not worried as we only have him along with the Min Pins which requires absolutely no grooming, but I have wanted to own a breed where grooming is involved and something that I can spend time doing and preparing, something to look forward to do!

I love the Powderpuff and would love to show them, but having prior knowledge of their struggles in the ring but we preferred the Hairless, and normally it takes me about an hour to groom my crested for one show at home and about 1/2 hour to get him ready for ringside and only having one just makes it so much easier, no need to rush trying to get multiple dogs ready!

With my Crested, I shave all the hair off his face as we love his head and his crest but we however left the fringe on his ears as his ears a bit bigger, and having seen some dogs bred by the same breeder that they do grow nice fringe, but he is young, so I believe they won't fully grow until 12-18 month from what I understand.

[LizT]

I have heard for breeding purposes that the puffs are important and vital to keep the hair coming through at all on the hairless, so im not really sure what the answer is. But id be curious to see what everyone thought.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring. I myself have seen the difference in the coat types of the puffs from thick and covering the whole of the body with veil, to splotchy and thin with small blotches of skin still hairless. So, I would be interested how the differing coats can all be considered 'correct' and at a genetic level how the hairless and the puffs can be shown as one breed, if in fact they are genetically the same.

This is not correct and I don't think what Entourage was eluding to.

Definitely not what i was eluding to, you do get some correct coated puffs and some terrier coated puffs yes, should the terrier coats be shown? No. They are incorrect, thats why we have a standard. I have mixed feelings about whether they should be bred with also. Our first Crested was a terrier coat powderpuff and really i wished someone had of pulled us aside and said 'listen that dog isnt going to grow a coat' We did have some remarks like 'gee who has been scruffing him up?' He had a lovely temperament, was a great dog to show, behaved well in the ring and really showed his butt off, but the coat did never grow and we pet homed him. This was after id spent $300 on grooming products because i thought i was grooming him wrong. It wasnt until we had bought a powderpuff from different bloodlines that i realised that they had totally different coats as the second dog had the correct veil and undercoat and when matured it reached the ground.

Those with whispy single coats that are patchy, may be quite bald in some areas are hairy hairless. Im not sure of the exhibitors frame of mind whether they think the dogs coat is going to get thicker or they dont believe they could have a hairless so hairy.

Are these the ones that look like "shaved Puffs"? You know with quite alot of hair on their feet, tails, heads and ears?

[ashaflynn]

I have heard for breeding purposes that the puffs are important and vital to keep the hair coming through at all on the hairless, so im not really sure what the answer is. But id be curious to see what everyone thought.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring. I myself have seen the difference in the coat types of the puffs from thick and covering the whole of the body with veil, to splotchy and thin with small blotches of skin still hairless. So, I would be interested how the differing coats can all be considered 'correct' and at a genetic level how the hairless and the puffs can be shown as one breed, if in fact they are genetically the same.

This is not correct and I don't think what Entourage was eluding to.

Definitely not what i was eluding to, you do get some correct coated puffs and some terrier coated puffs yes, should the terrier coats be shown? No. They are incorrect, thats why we have a standard. I have mixed feelings about whether they should be bred with also. Our first Crested was a terrier coat powderpuff and really i wished someone had of pulled us aside and said 'listen that dog isnt going to grow a coat' We did have some remarks like 'gee who has been scruffing him up?' He had a lovely temperament, was a great dog to show, behaved well in the ring and really showed his butt off, but the coat did never grow and we pet homed him. This was after id spent $300 on grooming products because i thought i was grooming him wrong. It wasnt until we had bought a powderpuff from different bloodlines that i realised that they had totally different coats as the second dog had the correct veil and undercoat and when matured it reached the ground.

Those with whispy single coats that are patchy, may be quite bald in some areas are hairy hairless. Im not sure of the exhibitors frame of mind whether they think the dogs coat is going to get thicker or they dont believe they could have a hairless so hairy.

Are these the ones that look like "shaved Puffs"? You know with quite alot of hair on their feet, tails, heads and ears?

No - a lot of hairless cresteds have plenty of hair on their head, feet and tails and are also naturally hairless on their body. On the other hand .... a lot of cresteds that do have a lot of hair on head, feet and tails are what we call 'hairy hairless' or 'extremely hairy hairless' depending on the amount of body hair they have. It's a little like people and the amount of hair they possess ... some people are naturally quite hairless and others not. Even the extremely hairy ones are genetically a hairless and will produce hairless pups. A powderpuff cannot.

Basically what Entourage was saying above is if you see a Crested that looks like it has a full coat i.e. Powderpuff but the coat is patchy, wispy and sometimes extremely thin and mangey looking this is more than likely an extremely hairy hairless that has not been clipped/shaved off and just left eau natural! To confuse matters even more ... there are a lot of puffs out there that do not have the correct coat and can have a messy looking terrier type coat. It never grows the length properly, can be a bit wiry or coarse and is more pouffy looking. This is an INCORRECT Powderpuff Coat not a hairy hairless.

I have not heard or seen anyone here in Vic shaving off a powderpuff to look like a hairless for the ring (not to say this hasn't happened but if it has I don't know about it)however a lot of pet people who buy a puff will often have them clipped into the hairless cut, leaving only a very short amount of coat on the body. I see nothing wrong with this if they are a pet only and obviously not being shown as such.

As mentioned previously the hairless and puff can often be identified by their teeth as the hairless have competely different dentitition - the puff's have a normal dog mouth. That being said though .... there have also been a few hairless cresteds with normal mouths - this breed is a doozy I'm telling you!

At birth a hairless and a puff are plainly obvious! The hairless are born naked - the puffs have a complete covering of hair. As the hairless get older (usually by two weeks old) you will find them sprouting some body hair - much to our horror normally as we are all trying to breed true hairless with good cresting!!! It never, ever goes the other way (amazingly I have heard people say this) that as they get older they lose the hair!! Pffft!

[Wazzat Xolo]

.....shame a hairless dog breed became a shave and veet breed, a hairless dog breed ( as in the hairless crested should be just that HAIRLESS) sadly its now common to veet and shave most Cresteds in order to attain the furnishings that win......

A good Puff will always shine thorugh if it is quality and a good judge knows his or her standard!

IMHO a hairless breed should be that HAIRLESS with no human intervention bar a little facial tidy up whiskers etc.

But thats just my opinion on hairless breeds.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Wazzat Xolo

[Beth24]

I couldn't agree with you more Wazzat. They aren't supposed to be the pretty dogs we see in the show ring. True hairless cresteds are quite ugly (but cute in their own way :) ) never see them anymore. I've been put off on purchasing another crested until I can get one that doesn't require endless amounts of shaving. I'm happy to wait until I can find one with minimal body hair.

It's also a shame that people wanting hl pets (like me when I got my first hl) can't get a hl dog that doesn't require shaving. No one wanting just a pet wants to have to shave them! And I don't think pet people are told of the types (extremely hairy etc) and the work involved in upkeep enough.