Powder Puff V's Hairless

[teddywaddy]

Ok, I am pretty new to the Chinese Crested breed, but would like to put this question out there, Do you think there should be seperate classes for Powder Puffs & Hairless??

There are many breeds out there that have long hair & smooth Classes or normal & wirehaired, so why cannot we campaign for seperate Crested classes??

Wouldnt this open up the market for Powder Puff sales?? There are so many beautiful powder puff puppies out there that are placed in pet homes because they are powder puffs, this is such a shame.

We love our Powder puff, he is beautiful, by a Swedish Import.

Your thoughts??

Cheers,

Rhonda

[pixie_meg]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

[Bilbo Baggins]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

[Entourage]

Ok, I am pretty new to the Chinese Crested breed, but would like to put this question out there, Do you think there should be seperate classes for Powder Puffs & Hairless??

There are many breeds out there that have long hair & smooth Classes or normal & wirehaired, so why cannot we campaign for seperate Crested classes??

Wouldnt this open up the market for Powder Puff sales?? There are so many beautiful powder puff puppies out there that are placed in pet homes because they are powder puffs, this is such a shame.

We love our Powder puff, he is beautiful, by a Swedish Import.

Your thoughts??

Cheers,

Rhonda

Hi Rhonda,

Both powderpuffs and hairless are geneticly the same dog. There has been in the past a few very nice powderpuffs that have been shown , before your time and some that are still shown in Australia with great success. They should never be placed in seperate classes, even though some judges are prejudicial towards the powderpuffs. The problem with powderpuffs is, and the same goes for hairless is that you have varying differences in coats in the powderpuffs and hairlessness in the hairless. There are those powderpuffs which have correct veil and double coat, but then there are those powderpuffs that are 'terrier coat' they look rather scruffy or fluffy, single coat and will never have the correct coat desired. I know as i have one here and they really arnt worth showing. Its through no fault of their own. With the hairless you can also have a varying degree of hairlessness, true hairless with very little cresting and body hair and then then very hairy 'hairy hairless' which is a hell of alot of work to prepare them for a show. So hairy in fact they need to have hair removal cream used on them. Those who dont use hair removal cream may shave but will end up with rash on the dog. Then of course you have those who have powderpuffs who in an attempt to fool judges, veet and shave their powderpuffs to have a chance of winning. It fools some, but the normal teeth on a powderpuff gives the dog away. Hairless should have forward pointing teeth. If you ever want any advice or want to have a chat, feel free to approach me at a show. I was once a newbie at Cresteds only a short time ago :-) I meant to say too that most people are not prepared to show a powderpuff, its some work to have a double coat to the ground. A magnificent sight to see, but they can still have a fight on their hands to be put up over the hairless at times.

Rebecca

Edited January 9, 2012 by Entourage

[pixie_meg]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

She said the following which sounded like she didn't realise they could be shown.

"Wouldnt this open up the market for Powder Puff sales?? There are so many beautiful powder puff puppies out there that are placed in pet homes because they are powder puffs, this is such a shame."

[Bilbo Baggins]

i thought they could be shown. am i wrong?

just went to the standard and heres what it says on the coat:

Coat: No large patches of hair anywhere on body. Skin fine grained, smooth, warm to the touch. In Powder Puffs coat consists of an undercoat with soft veil of long hair, veil coat a feature.

I think you missed the point. Separate powderpuff/ hiarless as in short and log coated chi's

Yes other breeds should be separted as in Europe. 4 different coloured cavs, 2 different coated Griffons.

She said the following which sounded like she didn't realise they could be shown.

"Wouldnt this open up the market for Powder Puff sales?? There are so many beautiful powder puff puppies out there that are placed in pet homes because they are powder puffs, this is such a shame."

I took that as being breeders pet home powderpuffs because all the reasons Entourage stated.

[Entourage]

I took that as being breeders pet home powderpuffs because all the reasons Entourage stated.

Also BB, some breeders are actually trying to breed a decent PP to show. With myself the powderpuffs i have bred have been assessed equally to the hairless, but have failed in temperament, movement or some other reason to irk me not to go on showing them. If anything i give the powderpuffs more of a chance to prove themsleves than the hairless.

Its a real shame sometimes to see people being placed with powderpuffs who like me have a real love of them, but unfortunately will never get anywhere because of the coat. Do i shut up and say nothing or say something and be deemed a nosey b**ch?

[Topoftheheap]

I don't own chinese cresteds but have had this conversation with a few people about powderpuffs. I am definately no expert on cresteds, but am naturally curious. If they are genetically the same (I understand they can be born in the same litter, and just carry extra hair genes) then wouldn't one or the other be considered a fault. I know neither are, and have seen many shown, but am wondering if maybe they should be either split into two types of crested or the breed standard refined.

I have heard for breeding purposes that the puffs are important and vital to keep the hair coming through at all on the hairless, so im not really sure what the answer is. But id be curious to see what everyone thought.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring. I myself have seen the difference in the coat types of the puffs from thick and covering the whole of the body with veil, to splotchy and thin with small blotches of skin still hairless. So, I would be interested how the differing coats can all be considered 'correct' and at a genetic level how the hairless and the puffs can be shown as one breed, if in fact they are genetically the same.

[Lowenhart]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. Same with Saluki, Ibizan and St Bernards.

I love a good Puff, it is sad when they are overlooked for a Hairless. I do know there is some old timers who don't believe the Puff should be there but they are needed for the health of the breed. I think it would be hard to push for a split due to the small numbers of dogs. And I do believe they are not split for FCI.

After all you would never see two coat types allowed in many other breeds, unless in fact they are split i.e short and long coated chi's/ smooth and rough collies, etc yet the cresteds to have two and from what entourage says maybe more coat types allowable in the show ring.

[Marion 01]

Interesting reading this thread. When we were showing our Powder Puff we would have loved for the PPs to be shown in a separate class to the hairless, and yes there was a tendency to overlook PPs. It's really hard to look at a dog in full coat and one who is bare to the skin and given that they are the same breed, make an assessment on each type. Our boy had rather large drop ears, as some do. His coat was also not a true veil coat, but rather a very thick coat more like our Tibetan Terriers we were showing at the time. Very outgoing, but he also grew much bigger than the standard so was withdrawn from showing for this reason. Here is of pic of him.

[Rebanne]

I love the powder puffs. I'm not likely to ever own one but I think they are just gorgeous.

[Crisovar]

To split them into separate classes would be wrong, both are needed for the breed to survive, to allow the powderpuff recognition as a separate variety would allow for litters that would never produce hairless pups. The Chinese Crested is a Hairless breed that has some coated individuals.

[Alyosha]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. Same with Saluki, Ibizan and St Bernards.

Well said.

I'm sure sometimes folks wth smooth Salukis feel the same, as they may feel overlooked for pretty fringes. But I think the difference being that dogs of a different variety, like Smooth and Lnghaired Dachshunds, are not interbred (except for the specific rules around Chihuahuas and Belgian Shepherds) whereas the Cresteds, Salukis etc can have both coat types in the same family, even the same litter.

I think Xolos are another breed where the coated ones are not judged separately.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. Same with Saluki, Ibizan and St Bernards.

Speaking for my breed, I would NOT want them separated. A smooth Saluki should look like a feathered without the feathering, not like a separate breed. Plus I'd never get competition - only once in my life have I seen smooths entered that would have competed against mine for challenge points at an All Breeds show and the other smooth was absent. My (champion) smooth has beaten plenty of feathereds.

Yes, it's not popular with judges who either prefer the feathering or just aren't confident enough to judge type without a bit of hair. I don't think moving him into a separate breed would fix either of those problems, it would probably make them worse. Sometimes you have to be part of the education process.

Edit: Also, sometimes the feathered is just the better dog. I would be kidding myself if I assumed the only reason I was beaten on any day was because I had a smooth.

Edited January 9, 2012 by SkySoaringMagpie

[OSoSwift]

At one stage I actually enquired about getting a Powder Puff, they are gorgeous little dogs. I most likely wouldn't have shown as we are a long way from shows so to keep a coat full for the ring for a couple of ventures a year may not have been all that practical.

There are other breeds as mentioned that have both coat types that are shown together and as the two coats type need to be bred together I am not sure splitting them would be for the best.

The Puffs are a stunning little dog

[Gayle.]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. Same with Saluki, Ibizan and St Bernards.

Well said.

I'm sure sometimes folks wth smooth Salukis feel the same, as they may feel overlooked for pretty fringes. But I think the difference being that dogs of a different variety, like Smooth and Lnghaired Dachshunds, are not interbred (except for the specific rules around Chihuahuas and Belgian Shepherds) whereas the Cresteds, Salukis etc can have both coat types in the same family, even the same litter.

I think Xolos are another breed where the coated ones are not judged separately.

I might have misunderstood you, but Collies Rough and Smooth are interbred but shown as separate classes.

[becks]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. Same with Saluki, Ibizan and St Bernards.

Well said.

I'm sure sometimes folks wth smooth Salukis feel the same, as they may feel overlooked for pretty fringes. But I think the difference being that dogs of a different variety, like Smooth and Lnghaired Dachshunds, are not interbred (except for the specific rules around Chihuahuas and Belgian Shepherds) whereas the Cresteds, Salukis etc can have both coat types in the same family, even the same litter.

I think Xolos are another breed where the coated ones are not judged separately.

I might have misunderstood you, but Collies Rough and Smooth are interbred but shown as separate classes.

I guess that depends on the country, in UK they are bred as separate breeds.

Aren't the griffons split by coat type and colour? I thought there were 3 varieties under FCI?

I find this an interesting discussion, my breed under FCI are split by colour, some countries allow colour crossing and some want at least 3 generations of pure colour. While it is easier to get support for the 'minority' colours by having them split, it can also cause problems in finding useable bloodlines - perhaps something that would be a problem if the cresties and PPs were split?? I did hear that there is a lethal gene when 2 cresties are bred together and they need one PP parent to have a healthy litter?

I think judges education needs to provide positive views on the 'minority' of any breed, to remind them they aren't a fault and should be looked at just as much as the more popular, not just dismissed because they are different.

I stewarded for the CC/PPs at our Premier show, there was a good entry of about 20 or so dogs and they were split about 50% of each type and both types were taking class wins.

[SparkyTansy]

Weimaraners are another breed that is shown as two separate varieties, but have the same breed standard and are allowed to be bred together. In the UK and I believe Europe, they are shown together. In the US the LH is not allowed to be shown.

A little while ago someone tried to get the LH and the SH weims banned from interbreeding however we do not have the numbers to justify splitting the breed in Australia. There has also been some evidence in the past of other issues when completely eliminating the LH from breeding programmes. The request to split was denied by the ANKC

I'd sooner see both varieties shown together than splitting the breeds. I am still not sure why there is one rule for some breeds and another rule for others that have two coat varieties.

[Gayle.]

Actually the Griffon Bruxellois is exhibited with 2 coat types. Same with Saluki, Ibizan and St Bernards.

Well said.

I'm sure sometimes folks wth smooth Salukis feel the same, as they may feel overlooked for pretty fringes. But I think the difference being that dogs of a different variety, like Smooth and Lnghaired Dachshunds, are not interbred (except for the specific rules around Chihuahuas and Belgian Shepherds) whereas the Cresteds, Salukis etc can have both coat types in the same family, even the same litter.

I think Xolos are another breed where the coated ones are not judged separately.

I might have misunderstood you, but Collies Rough and Smooth are interbred but shown as separate classes.

I guess that depends on the country, in UK they are bred as separate breeds.

I thought they were talking about Australia.

[becks]

I thought they were talking about Australia.

So?