Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[BC Crazy]

Thanks SG :) Stella is so food driven its ridiculous. It is like she is following my hands with her eyes constantly. So while she is very obedient, she wont hold say a down/ stay. She bounces straight back up. She is in such a hurry to get a reward. ATM we are going OK with heeling but as soon as I move my bait hand away she pops infront of me & sits, thinking she can have anther treat. She is very fast & extremely bright. I know its me not doing something right. Always got to think outside the square with her.

[raineth]

We introduced Del to a new dog last night and it went very well :)

I just did it the way I've always done it, except when it came to actually coming in close we did it with them on either side of a neutral fence.

I also had Del's muzzle on, for added security. Although honestly I think it created more hassles than it was worth!

We introduced her to our friends' dog and she is very friendly. I wouldn't call her reactive, but she is very excited about other dogs.

We walked them behind each other for a long time. Giving them an opportunity to smell each other's wees.

From the very beginning it was clear that they both were dying to meet each other, but obviously it's still important to go slowly.

Once they were a bit more habituated to each other's presence we walked them to the school where we could put them on opposite sides of the fence, and I put Del's muzzle on. Despite hours, upon hours of desensitisation I've done with the muzzle Del just loathes it. I have never, ever been able to desensitise her to anything over her face like that fully

Still the meeting through the fence was ok. Del did jump a couple of times, a behaviour I unfortunately think I taught her inadvertently because she thinks that she won't get a chance to say hello, so she thinks the solution is to jump towards the dog before I can stop her. Which is certainly not ideal, because a dog of her size frightens the other dog when she jumps towards them like that obviously. So each time she did that, we went away and she was put in a 'time out'. But still we saw quite a few playful interactions between them, which was great!

After the fence meeting we let them do bottom sniffing as they walked together. But when Del tried to smell Charli's bottom, she would accidentally hit (not forcefully) Charli in the bottom with the muzzle and Charli would get a fright and run forward. Del was totally fine with Charli sniffing her bottom.

Then we came home, and I put Del in the crate, closed in our room and let Charli investigate our house.

When Charli's owners came to pick her up, Del heard Charli and cried for her, and Charli cried for Del; it was all quite pathetic!

So we let Del out, because Charli was on our front verandah, and Del was inside so they got to interact between the door (no muzzle on). And they were both very appropriate and friendly :)

So overall, it was a very successful event. We'll be doing it again soon, and get it to the point where they are relaxed with each other in the confines of the house. As Charli will probably be a regular Thursday evening visitor :)

[BC Crazy]

Well done Del So pleased raineth that it all went so well for both of you :D Bet you are more than a little pleased. You certainly handled the situation extremely well. I think it always pays off to have a plan. Organize how you want things to play out. Most of all, take it slowly. You did ALL of the above

Some dogs just don't like muzzles full stop.Seems to frighten them. Stella doesn't worry at all apart from trying to get them off with her paw & she only does that with the material ones. The cage type has never bothered her. I only have to muzzle her on Vet visits & again it is fear based aggression. We are making progress with the Vet though. Slow as it has been, at least she will walk in now. She also suffers the examination without too much anguish.

[raineth]

It is really good she can walk into the Vet's now

With the muzzle, I can get Del to be ok with it when she has very low levels of arousal. When her arousal levels go up, she gets upset about it again. She has some funny skin sensitivities.

I spent ages getting her used to a head halter (even though I use a martingale on her) I just thought it would be a good idea. Anyway, it took me ages and ages to do it; and I eventually got her to a point where I could take her for a walk in it. Then one day she pulled on it, and it tightened around her nose, and she had a major panic attack and pulled it off her head through sheer force and determination.

So, yeah I get the feeling she just doesn't take to well to things on her face...

[skip]

I have the same problems others have mentioned.

But its particularly bad if i yell at another dog. Sometimes u have to but my dogs hate this. Double whammy if a scarey dog is coming and i yell as well.

And I actually yell sometimes while treating my kelpie so she can cope better.

[Simply Grand]

Thanks SG :) Stella is so food driven its ridiculous. It is like she is following my hands with her eyes constantly. So while she is very obedient, she wont hold say a down/ stay. She bounces straight back up. She is in such a hurry to get a reward. ATM we are going OK with heeling but as soon as I move my bait hand away she pops infront of me & sits, thinking she can have anther treat. She is very fast & extremely bright. I know its me not doing something right. Always got to think outside the square with her.

Oh, sorry I don't know why I thought she wasn't food driven! I think it's from reading that you've been using the game of fetch with her, I thought she must be more toy focussed.

Do you do much in the way of self control and settling exercises with her? I wonder if you could teach her more of a calm, focused state rather than the really alert, drivey one it sounds like she is generally in at the moment.

With shelter dogs we often do a lot of things like leave the food, wait at the gate, stay, and even the 'do nothing' exercise, which is literally attach a lead, human sits in a chair with a foot on the lead so the dog can sit and stand but not jump around and then ignore the dog for as long as it takes for it to really stop trying to do anything and just lie down and relax. One session can go for an hour and the reward the dog gets then is calm attention (pats and praise). The aim of all of these is basically to show the dog that you can try whatever you like but all I'm going to do is cover the food/close the gate/put you back in stay/ignore you until your brain calms down.

This is in conjunction with other more 'active' training of specific behaviours but we find that the self control stuff helps them slow down their reactions a bit so with things like prey drive / reactivity to moving things you have longer to catch and distract them because their brain has learned to slow down and think a bit before reacting. Helps with dog aggression too.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Simply Grand

[Amax-1]

Amax-1, Yes I use to think Sonny, my male was fast till I got Stella. I'm afraid he just eats Stella's dust :laugh:

Then you can relate to how tired I am by the end of the day. Stella takes every bit of energy I have, then some.

Any hint's as to how to manage her would be greatly appreciated :laugh: How did you manage to get his concerntration long enough to train him. I have issues with that at times.

He was mad on toys, balls and tugs to the point if he saw you with one and hid it from him, he would throw himself at you to get it, and if you turned your back on him, he would jump up and you would cop his snout in the back of the head, he was a nutcase in drive :laugh:

We controlled him with toys initially and made him perform commands for release for reward and because he was so intense for toy reward. we were able to gain handler focus above all else over time. He was too over the top to certify as a service dog and went to a sporting home in New Zealand.

Stella is so food driven its ridiculous. It is like she is following my hands with her eyes constantly. So while she is very obedient, she wont hold say a down/ stay. She bounces straight back up. She is in such a hurry to get a reward. ATM we are going OK with heeling but as soon as I move my bait hand away she pops infront of me & sits, thinking she can have anther treat. She is very fast & extremely bright. I know its me not doing something right. Always got to think outside the square with her.

If she won't hold a down stay, when she gets up, tell her NOOOOOO, then back her up to where she was laying and do it again and back away from her, then move in towards her and have a release word like, ok or yes which means she can get up and take the treat. Keep practicing that and moving further away each time before you go back to her for release and reward. Don't reward her for breaking command, make her do it again and get it right before she gets a reward. It takes time in small steps but if you tell her NOOOOOOOO, like a drawn out NO and take her back to do the exercise again, she will learn when she got it wrong also and getting it wrong means no reward.

With focused heeling, put her in the heel position at your side and stand still with a treat in your hand and hold it high on your chest below you neck where she will look up at you for the treat. When she gives you eye contact release her for the treat, so you are rewarding eye contact. Keep practicing that until she holds eye contact for 15 or 20 seconds reliably stationary, then command heal or we use the German word for heel "fuss" pronounced "foos" which seems to have an impact on dogs they respond to...so whilst she has held eye contact you command "fuss" and start walking......she will follow with eye contact in a competition heel, then release and reward her with a treat. I prefer to teach eye contact first then transition it to walking at heel as two separate exercises other wise when you try to incorporate the eye contact and walking in the one exercise and the dog has a lot of drive, they break easily and start jumping at you for the reward. When they have learned the eye contact part first in a stationary position, walking while maintaining the eye contact seems a more natural transition and they don't seem to break the heel as easily in training. I like the sound of Stella's drive BC, I think you will do well with her and correct the unwanted behaviour as the good drive in a dog provides more to work with training the right behaviour :)

Actually, the couple of working Border Collies I was impressed with their sheep work were pretty aggressive, if strangers went near the handler's truck they would get cranky same if the sheep played up they nip them, the dogs wouldn't take any nonsense. They were strong assertive dogs with heaps of drive, not like the show line Borders that people have as pets, the working line sheep dogs were quite different in character.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Amax-1

[BC Crazy]

Simply Grand, Don't have to appoligise :)

Yes I do do some 'wait' games with her. She is excellent at waiting at the gate till I say we can go through. Stel will wait forever in the back of my station wagon with the back door open, just sitting there till I release her.If I tell her 'leave it', she won't touch it. I could leave the lid off out garbage in the kitchen, she would never take from it. She excels at all of that kind of thing. But as soon as I start to train it's like, "give me the treat" :laugh:

Amax, Maybe Stella was switched at birth as she is from show stock :laugh: You like Stella's drive??? I'm surprised & pleased but sometimes I think she'd be in much better hands with someone really experienced. I feel like I'm holding her back somewhat as I know she has HUGE potential. I have always seen it in her. She is soooo focused, driven & extremely smart. I love her too much to let her go though so I am trying my absolute darndist to help Stella be the very best she can be. So I'm ALL in here. I just have to learn 'very quickly' what I don't know as we go along.

Can't thank you enough for breaking down that heeling method. Makes perfect sense to teach the eye contact first & I would of never thought to do it like that. I know this will work with her. Plus the long NOOOOO. Can't wait to give it a go. I think once I can get her going with this, she will excel. Once I teach her a formal heel, how do I get her to do a relaxed heel Amax? I'd like her to be able to do both, off lead. She heels on lead atm.

Stella has always stared at me a lot. It used to unnerve me at first but I'm used to it now. She gives me heaps of eye contact all the time. Sometimes she will just wander up & sit in front of me & look at me. Like "what do you want me to do now?" Very intense girl.

Funny how you describe that boy you had, jumping on you etc. Stella does this too. Even when she was a puppy, she would come flying at you fast as she could then leap straight at your head & jump right on top of you, complete nut bag :laugh: I was forever explaining to folks why I was missing skin off my face & nose. She would nip my face or anywhere she could. Glad she grew out of that habit.

Stella is exactly how you describe those working BC's too. She is very assertive. Nobody comes near "our things" anywhere. She will guard everything, including me. She doesn't suffer fools lightly either.

Edited July 26, 2014 by BC Crazy

[Amax-1]

BC, years ago we used to contain drive with a choke chain and hard corrections on the pretence that the dog must fear the handler. As training systems evolved, it was realised that drive, the thing most frustrating that a dog exhibits and is hard to control can be used to train behaviours with great success. Drive in a dog is easy to train handler focus which gives off leash control as the dog is always in tune with the handler from all the fun rewards the handler provides for the right behaviours.

Driven dogs in the old days are the ones we used to chase off leash and the most unreliable as they would take off given the opportunity, like 20 years later the same driven dogs off leash are the one's when trained in drive and handler focus that will come with great exuberance to a here command, with an intensity "you called me, what are we doing, lets go" and using the drive Stella has to your advantage will over time overcome her reactivity towards other dogs.

Stella has real working dog traits from her description which can come along in show lines just not as often as in working lines.....one of my best GSD's was a show line black and tan......his brother was a complete dud as a working dog and was placed in a pet home, being of a given working breed, an individual dog can inherit the strongest working traits of their ancestry.

Work on the handler focus with Stella and fun rewards for the right behaviour......she sounds like a great dog with heaps of potential albeit driven dogs are a bit of handful in the learning process, but with time and patience they produce some great results in control and obedience. :)

[raineth]

I have the same problems others have mentioned.

But its particularly bad if i yell at another dog. Sometimes u have to but my dogs hate this. Double whammy if a scarey dog is coming and i yell as well.

And I actually yell sometimes while treating my kelpie so she can cope better.

Yep, I gave up on the yelling as I think it just makes the situation worse for everyone :)

[raineth]

BC Crazy, I just wanted to say I love your Avatar :)

[BC Crazy]

Thanks raineth :) thats so kind of you... Sonny is even more beautiful in the fur :p but much more important he is such a gentle, loving soul...

A lovely doler very kindly resized my photo & have me step by step directions to upload it as I am not at all computer savvy.

Edited July 30, 2014 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

I have the same problems others have mentioned.

But its particularly bad if i yell at another dog. Sometimes u have to but my dogs hate this. Double whammy if a scarey dog is coming and i yell as well.

And I actually yell sometimes while treating my kelpie so she can cope better.

Yep, I gave up on the yelling as I think it just makes the situation worse for everyone :)

Yes best to make not a sound. Everyone is already very aroused.

[dwynwen]

There is an online course "Introduction to BAT" taught by Grisha Stewart starting Aug 1 on Denise Fenzi's site - I've signed up for the Bronze level.

Thought it may be of interest to folks in this thread - apologies if it's been mentioned before (I did search and didn't find any mentions)

[Simply Grand]

Oh Snook

Try and take a step back from thinking about it for tonight (I know easier said than done ) Justice gets so many great things from you and you can give him what he needs, it's just really, really unfair that you have to do it all again.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Simply Grand

[raineth]

Oh Snook, I'm so sorry you and Justice had such a bad afternoon

I can see how hopeless you are feeling about the situation. Having a reactive dog can be such hard work., and I think sometimes it can almost make you burnt out.

Don't make any decisions while you are feeling so low. Take care of yourself tonight: hot chocolate, nice bath, cuddles with Justice in front of the TV.

[BarbedWire]

Snook I am an outsider who has been reading this thread ever since it started and I have so admired your progress with Justice. Please do not give up or be hard on yourself. You have done a wonderful job and you have inspired me to work harder with my own reactive dog. Hopefully for you it will be one step backwards but two steps forwards.

ETA Please do not let me stop this thread too.

Edited July 30, 2014 by sarsaparilla

[hankdog]

You've been the light at the end of Jakes tunnel, hang in there Snook. Having a reactive dog is work or hard work. I know those looks, I probably gave out a few myself before I got Jake. It's really just ignorance, until you've owned a dog like ours you don't understand.

You went into the shop which is great. There was a dummy spit but you handled it. Hang in there.

[sunnyjohn]

Amax-1,

Sounds like you have had a bit to do with drivey dogs. Can you point me to any good resources for training a drivey dog.

Thanks sunnyjohn

[teekay]

So many Snook. It's just so bloody unfair isn't it. I totally understand when you say it is soul destroying. I haven't got any advice for you but just wanted to say I totally understand how you feel. You should not have to be dealing with this. Is Justice on any kind of medication? If not, do you think it may help, even if only for awhile so you get a bit of a break