Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Amax-1]

What I need to do is let him look calmly back at the dog without reacting and then reward the second time he looks at me. That way he is rewarded for maintaining a calm state rather than barking,

He's actually being rewarded for looking at you......I don't see how they determine the calm behaviour which is the previous action before looking at you relates to the reward from the dog's perspective? It's more the teaching of a new response when in face of another dog and because of that, the reactivity is suppressed in the process as a by-product?

[hankdog]

Mmmm yes I think Amax that they think he might be working it a bit. So he barks and then looks at me to get a reward, so he's being rewarded for barking possibly rather than the look. I've thought he's been doing that for the neighbour dogs. They don't really bother him anymore, they're over 70m away and quiet unless they're playing rough but he spends a lot of time looking at their house, then as soon as they appear he barks and runs to me for reward, I still reward him because I'd rather that than he decided to go fence fight.

I don't think he's that much in control with an on leash dog, his bark is more "real" if that makes sense. So I think though that it's more to build a more sustained calm response. I can't think of exactly how it was put but holding a more pleasant feeling will also be rewarding. He did seem to get it quite quickly. I think a newbie might be better rewarded for just looking but we've been at it for a while so I think it's also a progression.

I kind of reach for my treat bag as soon as I see a dog so I think that also creates some confusion for him. I know I do but I guess it's my nervous tic. Look Jake there's trouble but I have all this peanut butter rather than if you do the right thing I might reach in there and give you some. Because that is pretty much what I think rather than trusting him and giving the opportunity to prove himself.

[BC Crazy]

I'm guilty of the exact same thing Hankdog. I have my hand in the treat bag way before I need to then. I will try to delay my action slightly today on our walk. See how we go. Stella has been going really well. She did run up to another dog yesterday but she had a sniff, she did a play bow & I then called her, she came back asap.Straight to my feet & sat. We seem to have far more reactivity when she is on lead these days. Previously she was very reactive both on & off lead but I have been noticing lately she has been much improved with meet & greet off lead. She stands still has a sniff then off she goes. I always screen all the approaching dogs though. We have been practising on the dogs I have known for years. So far she is doing really well :)

Edited July 17, 2014 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

It's great that she can have dog contact and she has good recall. A lot of dogs are on leash reactive, not that you want to accept it but if she's fearful I suppose that will persist for quite a while. I think she's marvelous being able to greet dogs. Good girl Stella. (Virtual hand in treat bag!)

Edited July 17, 2014 by hankdog

[Amax-1]

Mmmm yes I think Amax that they think he might be working it a bit. So he barks and then looks at me to get a reward, so he's being rewarded for barking possibly rather than the look. I've thought he's been doing that for the neighbour dogs. They don't really bother him anymore, they're over 70m away and quiet unless they're playing rough but he spends a lot of time looking at their house, then as soon as they appear he barks and runs to me for reward, I still reward him because I'd rather that than he decided to go fence fight.

I don't think he's that much in control with an on leash dog, his bark is more "real" if that makes sense. So I think though that it's more to build a more sustained calm response. I can't think of exactly how it was put but holding a more pleasant feeling will also be rewarding. He did seem to get it quite quickly. I think a newbie might be better rewarded for just looking but we've been at it for a while so I think it's also a progression.

I kind of reach for my treat bag as soon as I see a dog so I think that also creates some confusion for him. I know I do but I guess it's my nervous tic. Look Jake there's trouble but I have all this peanut butter rather than if you do the right thing I might reach in there and give you some. Because that is pretty much what I think rather than trusting him and giving the opportunity to prove himself.

What I have established over the years is once you can reduce the reactivity distance down to close proximity with another dog by any means you achieve that, the dog learns to relax when realising nothing untoward happens in close proximity to another dog. It's notable when achieving good progress and the dog is subject to a bad encounter with another dog, perhaps another reactive or over boisterous dog, it sets the progress back quickly, I guess the idea in the training process where it works well with close proximity to calm dogs. I am not sure that rewarding calm is what's happening and think calm is a state the dog chooses with increased exposure to other dogs without a drama occurring to trigger their previous reactivity.

Social aggression is also another cause of reactivity which is a dominant reactivity towards a strange dog who doesn't belong in the pack......that's not a fear reaction but more an extension of territorial aggression. Socially aggressive dogs usually posture and growl a lot on dogs they know or first greetings with another dog will be putting it's head over the dog's shoulder and growling wanting the other dog to submit to their assumed hierarchy. Some little dogs can be socially aggressive and want to dominate big dogs. They don't realise that one chomp from the big dog and they are dead, but they will start a fight with a big dog if the big dog doesn't submit.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Amax-1

[hankdog]

For clarity proximity for Jake is with me about ten meters at the closest, we take a bit of work to get that close. If the trainers have him and I stand away so his focus is split they can get him a fair bit closer. It's not expected that he will ever actually get close to a dog, just that he doesn't tantrum when he goes by.

Strangely he doesn't growl, he has a toneless, repetitive bark, sounds more like desperation to me. Normally he screams and sometimes he says " hubba hubba". Weird dog. I think his vision, anxiety and lack of experience mean he doesn't fit neatly into a category. He's an odd dog, he doesn't really understand pats, he now likes a belly rub but it took him a while to get there. He does luckily like to sit touching you. Lucky me in winter he loves to sit on the couch right squished next to me.

It took an open minded trainer to give us a chance and I think even she has been surprised by his progress. Most trainers just wrote him off.

[hankdog]

For clarity proximity for Jake is with me about ten meters at the closest, we take a bit of work to get that close. If the trainers have him and I stand away so his focus is split they can get him a fair bit closer. It's not expected that he will ever actually get close to a dog, just that he doesn't tantrum when he goes by.

Strangely he doesn't growl, he has a toneless, repetitive bark, sounds more like desperation to me. Normally he screams and sometimes he says " hubba hubba". Weird dog. I think his vision, anxiety and lack of experience mean he doesn't fit neatly into a category. He's an odd dog, he doesn't really understand pats, he now likes a belly rub but it took him a while to get there. He does luckily like to sit touching you. Lucky me in winter he loves to sit on the couch right squished next to me.

It took an open minded trainer to give us a chance and I think even she has been surprised by his progress. Most trainers just wrote him off.

[hankdog]

Hope the J-dawg is treating you well Snook and getting over his upsets?

[Amax-1]

Most trainers just wrote him off.

The are quite a few trainers and especially training classes that won't deal with reactivity and makes it very hard sometimes for owners of reactive dogs to seek appropriate support. Many will belittle the owner implying that their dogs reactivity is caused by improper raising and handling where in fact it's usually the dogs default behaviour genetically when under stress, nothing really to do with the owner at all. One consolation when mastering a reactive dog, you will be a better trainer/handler than the trainer who wrote you off

For clarity proximity for Jake is with me about ten meters at the closest, we take a bit of work to get that close. If the trainers have him and I stand away so his focus is split they can get him a fair bit closer. It's not expected that he will ever actually get close to a dog, just that he doesn't tantrum when he goes by.

That makes sense as the focus intensity wouldn't be as strong on the other dog with his focus split between yourself and the trainer so it would reduce the threshold distance.

What's he like if a dog walker is approaching on the footpath?. That's usually the worse encounter especially if you have little escape path to maintain threshold distance.....then of course handler stress, "shit, here comes another dog and mine is going to light up on this dog approaching", the dog senses the handler stress and makes the likelihood of reactivity worse.....all in the stride of exercising a reactive dog!

Edited July 18, 2014 by Amax-1

[hankdog]

Yea I'm sort of immune to freaking out. We always cross the road or emergency u turn. At the moment our best effort is to sit and see the dog, he doesn't have great vision and it's better for him that I point out the dog at as far a distance as possible. We then bunny hop past, walk a few steps and sit if he starts to tense up. He gets a few look and licks to calm down and pretty much as soon as he's exactly past he will head down and make off and then get a nice long treat once we are at a safe distance.

Worst effort will be him not being able to walk past and having to stay in a sit whilst the other dog passes and shoving the jar over his jaw. It really depends on the other dog, calm dogs that look at him then ignore him are quite easy but any attempts to interact, friendly or not are not welcome.

Not I suppose everyone's idea of a walk but I'm pretty much just used to it. Very excited when we have a win but bad days are not the end of the world.

[BC Crazy]

Yes have to totally agree again with you Hankdog. I too am past freaking out. The fast U turn is our best friend, also the cross the road. If we do continue walking past, it is done quickly usually. The results are usually mixed. "leave it" works wonders with us. Some days Stella will surprise me & completely ignore say a group of dogs. Then other days she will completely loose it over 1 dog, miles away. She is usually much more reactive to another dog if they are moving. Running or chasing a ball etc. will bring her undone quickly. I too use distraction. The fast game of retrieve is winning at the moment when I'm at the beach. She is continuing to place herself in front of a rock wall in readiness for our 'special fast game' when certain dogs approach that she usually reacts to. Which I am thrilled about. This seems to be paying off for us. I have all her attention at this time. I believe 100 dogs could walk by & she would still be focused totally on me. Where I'm going to go with this positive drill I'm unsure. Will have to get my thinking cap on for that one.

HD, it must be very unnerving for Jake having limited eye sight. This certainly must be more frightening for him. He can't actually see whats 'over there' clearly. Poor fella. He is going really well though.

Snook thanks for your kindness. Justice has certainly come along way considering what has unfortunately occurred at the dog day care place. Well done :)

[Amax-1]

She is usually much more reactive to another dog if they are moving. Running or chasing a ball etc. will bring her undone quickly.

Is it perhaps a prey driven reactivity?.......she's a Border Collie, high drive dog?

[BC Crazy]

Yes she is very drivey. Although I have trained a very reliable 'off switch'. If there is something on the move, a bird, the postie, a running dog she will react faster than lightening. So yes prey driven reactivity. I try very hard to distract before she reacts. It makes things very hard for me at times. She is a wonderful girl.I just adore her but Id be lying if I said she is an easy girl. So far from it.

[BC Crazy]

Your too kind Snook. Appreciate your support. Many thanks :)

[BC Crazy]

Well miss Stella is on a bit of a role at the moment. We have bush walked for 2 hours both yesterday & this morning in the B.awful weather. Which we do every w.end in the winter time. For the first time we have just had her in harness but didn't put her long line on. She didn't put a foot wrong.

I'm so happy & very proud of her

As you can imagine bush walking a prey reactive/noise phobic, highly anxious girl can be well... interesting... she hears EVERYTHING & pretty much wants to chase it down at full speed. That's all well & good but I certainly don't want coming to grief while cornering a Kangaroo which is her favorite thing to chase. So over the last 2.5 years I've had her on long line whilst working with her over time on very reliable recall & just walking within a safe distance of us. I'm thrilled with her excellent behavior. One bursting with pride momma here :D

[BC Crazy]

Oh Snook, thank you :) I'm wrapped really. Just blown away... :D

I have spent countless hours just being with her.Firstly just watching her, trying to figure her out. Always knew she was very different but also knew if I could get a handle on her I may have a chance of giving her some sort of quality of life. Cause it wasn't looking good for quite some time & 3 behaviorists later, all with the same answer While her anxiety has improved slightly, her obedience & over all behavior is where I can see major improvement. I have always believed Stella has huge potential. She is extremely bright.

So I really feel all my ground work over the last almost 4 years, building repore with her is starting to pay off. I had to make up new strategies & think very much 'out of the square' with her. It has been VERY SLOW but I think it's working & I couldn't be more thrilled :D

Edited July 20, 2014 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

It is overwhelming & it is AWESOME !!! Snook :D

Like all of us I always give Stella everything I have emotionally, physically & mentally... EVERYTHING 1000%

But she always give's me all that & more, every time. That's dogs for you. Huge hearts. Just amazing aren't they.

So whats changed??? I've been thinking, what is happening with Stella now is her anxiety levels aren't quite as extreme as they once where. I was reading a diary note that I kept of her when she was 11 months old. 57 times she anxiously reacted on this one particular day So this new found inner peace alone is such a huge bonus. She is at least able to have a nap in the afternoon peacefully. Unheard of before. If something does upset her in the back yard now & she has a frantic response her recovery time is a lot quicker than it used to be. I can get her to resettle almost as quickly as she kicked off. This would never have happened previously. Once she was aroused before, that was it & then she would continue to react in her heightened state of arousal till she was exhausted. This is just not happening anymore. She is not reaching those peaks :D

She really is beginning to trust me now. I think I've helped her gain some confidence as well. She is actually making choices too. I have encouraged that. She has always been a thinker. She can work out things very quickly so I just enhanced/worked with that really.

We still have many goals to kick yet though. Her DA/reactivity for one. I really want to sharpen up her basic obedience too. My dream is to be able to do agility with her one day. I know, BIG dreams, but who knows, right :D

[Amax-1]

She is usually much more reactive to another dog if they are moving. Running or chasing a ball etc. will bring her undone quickly.

Is it perhaps a prey driven reactivity?.......she's a Border Collie, high drive dog?

Justice is much more reactive with running dogs too but I wouldn't say he has a high prey drive by any means. I think for him at least, it's more to do with a fast moving dog feeling more unpredictable as he has far less time to assess the situation and get comfortable, compared with a dog that is standing still or walking along at a normal pace. The dogs that have attacked or tried to attack him in public have all started by running straight at him too, which probably doesn't help.

Yes, moving dogs would trigger a defensive action quickly if he's been attacked like that for sure. Attacks on a dog who is already reactive doesn't help in the training process teaching the dog that other dogs are not a real threat.

Yes she is very drivey. Although I have trained a very reliable 'off switch'. If there is something on the move, a bird, the postie, a running dog she will react faster than lightening. So yes prey driven reactivity. I try very hard to distract before she reacts. It makes things very hard for me at times. She is a wonderful girl.I just adore her but Id be lying if I said she is an easy girl. So far from it.

The first Belgian Malinois I had some involvement with in his training was like your girl and what he would do if he wasn't in focus with you at the time something else was moving, he would be after it before you had time to change his focus. He had super focus when he was in focus, you could heel him through a heard of elephants, you could hold him in a long down on the footpath with people walking around him even dogs approaching him when in handler focus he was ok, but when relaxed, he would catch you off guard and go nuts over something, so you either had to focus him all the time which was impractical or have him on leash, you could never trust him off leash in a relaxed state, some thing would catch his eye and was gone after it aggressively.....he was handful and a half. My GSD was like an old draught horse in comparison where I once thought he was fast and drivey :laugh:

Edited July 20, 2014 by Amax-1

[BC Crazy]

Amax-1, Yes I use to think Sonny, my male was fast till I got Stella. I'm afraid he just eats Stella's dust :laugh:

Then you can relate to how tired I am by the end of the day. Stella takes every bit of energy I have, then some.

Any hint's as to how to manage her would be greatly appreciated :laugh: How did you manage to get his concerntration long enough to train him. I have issues with that at times.

[Simply Grand]

BCC, sorry I haven't read back through to remind myself, but are you hand feeding Stella? As in she never gets any food that doesn't come from focussing on you? It's a way to build value in food for non-food driven dogs, as well as focus on the person who provides that food. Whatever other drives they have, food is very primal for dogs and unless they are really unwell they will eventually work for it.

It can be a long process but if it isn't something you have tried it may be worth looking into.