Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[teekay]

Oh BC Crazy, it must be totally awful to see your dog in such distress. to you, I'm sure you need it. Hope you get Stella a bit more stable soon. Glad she has had a good day but I can imagine you just waiting for another seizure, I know I would. I guess you have to take it a day at a time. Can I ask how old she is?

[BC Crazy]

Yes watching the seizures is just so traumatic Teekay. Just awful Trouble is of late I have started to have nightmares reliving them over & over during the night as well which I could do without. I think it is just because they upset me so much when they really do occur I am on tender hooks atm most of the time because you just don't know when she is going to have another one. She is a very highly strung girl at the best of times.You are suppose to carrying on as usual but I have to admit I'm having difficulty doing that. I am finding myself quite edgy around her with worry that's all. I want to just wrap her in cotton wool & keep her safe.

Stella turned 3 last November Teekay. Thanks for the cyber hug :)

[hankdog]

I would second getting a more expert opinion, it's having a negative impact on your life as well as Stella's. Vets have to know so much about so many critters that I think it would be impossible to be an expert on everything. An epilepsy expert might have some strategies and tips to make coping easier as well since they'd be dealing with it more often.

Jake had a great session this morning. We had two trainers so that we could refresh the tester dog and one trainer could handle Jake. I get quite nervous to take him close to another dog without a fence since he can move so quickly and I worry about him pulling me over or the leash slipping and him getting to the other dog. The trainers had him within about three meters of each other and he was great, he practiced his studiously ignore and it was good to see him nudging the trainer for comfort and really getting close into her.

I also made a point of fussing over the tester dogs and then walking over and letting him smell my hands and patting him. Luckily when we walked past the office on the way out the trainer had him as two border collies walked out in front of him, he started to react then looked up and went "oops, suck it up". Although he was tense he allowed them to walk past and he only got a little bit of peanut butter as a reward, no luring or distraction.

I'm so glad to have found the right training system for him. Whilst he has been a challenge I think he is the ultimate example of a dog for whom not one particular method has worked but lots of different things used at different stages has been effective.

The best advice I'd ever give is to get an expert handler in. I can sort of figure out how to do stuff but only after I see the trainers doing it with him do I really get it. The trainers are so efficient with him that he doesn't really get started reacting and harsh corrections aren't really necessary.

I'm gushing a bit but seeing my norty dog sitting watching two BCs walk past will have that effect.

[raineth]

Oh many thanks Snook. Much appreciated .

Stella is sound asleep atm. She has had a really good day today. Full of beans & her cheeky, happy self. Just got to learn to ride the roller coaster of emotions atm. She just makes me feel all warm & fuzzy when I watch her on her good days. She is such a character. Very vocal & animated. Little miss smarty pants. Love her to bits :)

I'm glad to hear she's had a happy day :)

Yes I think that must be one of the hardest things about the epilepsy, it's very dramatic and distressing when she is having a seizure, unlike some other conditions which can be a lot more invisible.

I would second getting a more expert opinion, it's having a negative impact on your life as well as Stella's. Vets have to know so much about so many critters that I think it would be impossible to be an expert on everything. An epilepsy expert might have some strategies and tips to make coping easier as well since they'd be dealing with it more often.

Jake had a great session this morning. We had two trainers so that we could refresh the tester dog and one trainer could handle Jake. I get quite nervous to take him close to another dog without a fence since he can move so quickly and I worry about him pulling me over or the leash slipping and him getting to the other dog. The trainers had him within about three meters of each other and he was great, he practiced his studiously ignore and it was good to see him nudging the trainer for comfort and really getting close into her.

I also made a point of fussing over the tester dogs and then walking over and letting him smell my hands and patting him. Luckily when we walked past the office on the way out the trainer had him as two border collies walked out in front of him, he started to react then looked up and went "oops, suck it up". Although he was tense he allowed them to walk past and he only got a little bit of peanut butter as a reward, no luring or distraction.

I'm so glad to have found the right training system for him. Whilst he has been a challenge I think he is the ultimate example of a dog for whom not one particular method has worked but lots of different things used at different stages has been effective.

The best advice I'd ever give is to get an expert handler in. I can sort of figure out how to do stuff but only after I see the trainers doing it with him do I really get it. The trainers are so efficient with him that he doesn't really get started reacting and harsh corrections aren't really necessary.

I'm gushing a bit but seeing my norty dog sitting watching two BCs walk past will have that effect.

Fantastic work guys

I can definitely relate to what you were saying about different techniques at different stages.

I know with Del, that it wasn't until we did BAT that we started making any improvements. Then we meeded to switch mainly to CC, with some singsong voice thrown in (I find this really helps) to get more improvement.

While she is so confident at club now that I'm finding that to get to the next level I am increasing her arousal by playing with her. I was advised to do this in the beginning, but it didn't work for us at all, as having her in a higher state of arousal made her more volatile and unpredictable and more likely to react.

While out on walks where she can be a little more stressed, we are still not ready to increase her arousal levels.

Interestingly, at club there is a Dobe. He is well behaved and non-provocative. But Del finds him very challenging because of his natural 'upright' conformation and he has a gay tail which means his tail is kind of permanently arched over his back. He remains the only dog to really trouble her at club. Ironically I think if we were able to get closer to him she would probably notice his soft expression and other body language that indicates his state of mind, but until then I think she will remain very suspicious of him!

[BC Crazy]

Rainth epilepsy is certainly extremely confronting.

My girl isn't keen on Boxers for the same reason as Del doesn't like Dobes. Their stance. They are very upright.

Hankdog, yes am looking forward to going to a specialist Vet. I know Stella is EE but I really think her meds are in need of review. Some coping skills/advice I also really need.

Great to hear Jake is going so well. Huge progress there. Well done Sounds like you have an excellent trainer too which would b a godsend I think.

Thats next on my list of 'to do's' is to get a suitable trainer on a regular basis once things with Stella calm down somewhat healthwise.

Edited March 7, 2014 by BC Crazy

[Canisbellum]

Another milestone for Jonah, he was able to interact with dogs at a park a couple of times without any dominance or aggression issues. Until the planets lined up yesterday and he ignored me to run up to the wrong dog and got chomped for his troubles, and today he met a new batch of dogs at obedience while on lead and not one growl or sign of aggression 1st time ever.

Definitely signs of progress.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Canetoad

[Canisbellum]

It's great to hear about the wins you guys are having with your dogs. Awesome work.

How are you and Stella going, BC Crazy?

It's now been almost 2 years since Justice and I started working with Amy and her dogs and although it's been a very long road with loads of wins and setbacks, I'm ecstatic to be able to say that it looks like all of the hard work has paid off. After seeing Amy almost every fortnight for private sessions with her dogs Saaba, Koda and Mavro, as well as special needs classes and obedience training, we had our final session with her five weeks ago. Justice had been doing wonderfully around other dogs in controlled settings (so he either knew the dog, the dog had been assessed as fine for him to meet or everybody was on leash) and even crawled over and tried to make friends with a dog who had been staring and barking at him! Amy and I agreed he no longer needed the one on one work and it was time to start helping him generalise everything he's learned with larger groups of dogs so, four weeks ago he started doing one afternoon of doggy day care with Amy and her staff each fortnight (we started with afternoons so that the other dogs had already gotten a lot of their excitement and hyperactivity out before he arrives). They've reported back that he's been brilliant with the other dogs and is engaging and playing with them and is apparently even a bit smitten with a female rottweiler that goes to the same session. He's at his third day care session right now and should be moving on to being there for the full day in the next fortnight or two. When I picked him up after his first day care experience I was so overwhelmed that he is actually able to walk in to a large group of dogs and just be chilled and enjoy himself that I got teary hearing all about how good he'd been and how much he enjoyed himself. The exhausted smile on his face when I pick him up is just priceless and makes every second of our struggle to get here more than worth it.

I know Justice will always need to be managed to some degree, even if it's just ensuring I don't put him in situations that would be overwhelming for him and only allow him to play with dogs I've screened as being suitable (good doggy manners, not particularly dominant etc) or those in the day care groups run by ABT (he will never be allowed to go to a regular doggy day care group as I don't trust that they have the training and dedication to manage things as well as the ABT staff do). It's such a relief to finally be at that management stage though and I want to thank every one of you who have helped us get here and offered advice, encouragement and support along the way (and put up with my tears and told me to stop beating myself up every time I messed up). I really hope hearing about Justice's progress helps motivate and encourage anyone who is struggling or is having more bad days than good, to keep going and never give up. :)

One of the things I love about the ABT day care is that they take photos of the dogs each session and post them on facebook so we get to see our dogs hanging out and having fun. I thought I'd share a photo of my happy boy that was taken by the staff this afternoon (for anyone not familiar with the boofer he's the one in the middle):

Unfortunately I do have some incredibly sad news to finish off my post with. Amy's dog Saaba, who was amazing at rehabilitating dogs and such an incredibly sweet boy, was given his wings on the weekend. It was very quick and unexpected. He was diagnosed with liver problems after being taken in for blood tests in response to some changes in his behaviour and the poor boy deteriorated rapidly. Further testing showed he wasn't going to recover and the heartbreaking decision had to be made to put him to sleep. He was such an incredibly special soul and has made an enormous difference to the lives of many, many dogs and I am so very grateful to him. Run free beautiful boy.

Glad to hear you are winning, Pity about Saaba stories like that make me incredibly sad as I know what I would feel like if anything happened to Jonah.

[JulesP]

Unfortunately I do have some incredibly sad news to finish off my post with. Amy's dog Saaba, who was amazing at rehabilitating dogs and such an incredibly sweet boy, was given his wings on the weekend. It was very quick and unexpected. He was diagnosed with liver problems after being taken in for blood tests in response to some changes in his behaviour and the poor boy deteriorated rapidly. Further testing showed he wasn't going to recover and the heartbreaking decision had to be made to put him to sleep. He was such an incredibly special soul and has made an enormous difference to the lives of many, many dogs and I am so very grateful to him. Run free beautiful boy.

Is Saaba a border collie?

[Weasels]

Oh so sorry to hear about Saaba I took Chessy for some casual agility classes there last year until I got sick, and at the off-leash play at the end she would get a bit fun-policey so I'd take her into the corner to do some focus and counter-conditioning, and Amy's huskies would create a kind of wall around her to keep the bouncy dogs away :) Gorgeous dog, run free Saaba xx

[hankdog]

I'm so sorry Snook, the world needs dogs like Saaba.

Hearing of Justice' progress and how his training has been handled has been such inspiration and hope for me. It can be very lonely in the reactive dog world.

ETA. Just looked at the picture on my computer, priceless it looks like the dogs are playing some kind of musical clamshells and the lab is "out" and going to say " coming ready or not."

Edited March 15, 2014 by hankdog

[BC Crazy]

Haven't had much time to post of late. Will have to read up on the previous last posts.

Quick update regarding Stella. She has been put on Epilepsy medication now as she has continued to have seizures unfortunately. So am hoping to get them under control fairly soon.

I have a Vet Behaviourst coming next week for a 2 hour visit to hopefully shed some light on Stella reactive behaviour & teach me some corrective/coping skills. So wish us luck folk's. Should be very interesting to say the least. Can't wait !!

[hankdog]

Oh I'd love to hear what strategies they come up with and what they decide sets her off. Hopefully her meds kick in soon.

[hankdog]

Oh that's so cute, doggie time out. It's amazing that he knew what the naughty corner was, our dogs are so smart. I guess it's a bad thing but I think it's really positive that he could come back and realise not to "misbehave". It's great that he so clearly understands what's expected of him. Some kids I know could use a bit of that clarity.

[BC Crazy]

Thanks Snook. Yes I'm looking forward to the Behaviourst's visit very much. Stella is so much happier since I taken her off the Endep she was on. Don't think that medication was helping her very much .You don't actually realize this sometimes till you actually stop the drug unfortunately. Seems it was just subduing/masking her personality. Definitely not what I want to do to her. The Vet will certainly be seeing the 'true' Stella. She is so happy she is about to burst :laugh: So I think we are heading in the much more positive direction now.

Justice sounds like he understood his ' time out' gave him a chance to redirect his thoughts & collect himself again. Which he did. I think he is doing really well. I know the targeting part isn't so good but there were no signs of aggression. Our dogs aren't going to get on with every single dog either I guess. In a daycare situation he showed a lot of self control & that is very important.

Edited March 28, 2014 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

Well I'm stuck in America this week and Jakes at the kennels and having training everyday. They've sent me a video of him doing class with other dogs!!!! I'm a bit jealous that I'm not the human taking him to class but very happy that he was able to go. I think this will work out for the best. We were getting to a point where I was too nervous to take him as close to the tester dog as the trainers were. Hopefully after a full week of training he will have got over the worst and I'll be able to handle him.

[BC Crazy]

That's wonderful that Jake has been doing classes with other dogs Hankdog. He has made huge progress

I can understand you being a tad jealous but you are very fortunate to have such good trainers & in turn so is he.

Marvelous opportunity/experience for him. You must be bursting with pride. I know I would be.

Gosh your in America, how exciting....

Had a very interesting visit from the Vet/Behaviourist yesterday. Apparently Stella is genetically high end anxious/reactive/noise phobic. He temp. tests at the RSPCA as well as being a Vet & lectures at uni's etc etc & he said that he would have been given Stella her wings long ago as she'd fail the temp. test miserably.

It is his belief that her issues would have started with her mum not wanting to feed her or her siblings without being physically held down & made to by her breeder (which I only found out after purchasing her) The whole calm/nurture/bonding experience didn't exist for Stella from day one & he couldn't emphasis enough how crucial that period of her life is in shaping her whole mental make up for future life. Hence she has invented some of her own coping skills, eg. toy carrying/sucking. Fright & flight. She runs/whines at the slightest sound etc etc. He commended me on how well I have managed her thus far & that I am on the right track, which I was pretty chuffed about I must admit.

I have a tonne of paperwork to read up on that he has left me with which is great.

I am to intercept her flight behaviour way earlier than I have been & redirect her by asking her to do something.Sit, laydown whatever/reward. Her thought pattern has to be totally interrupted & redirected, which I was doing BUT I wasn't asking her to do something, I didn't totally follow through so she would revert straight back into panic mode. Each time she reenters her panic mode her state of arousal is heightened till she was over her threshold & beyond.

She can be a bit pushy/rude with me at times that I was totally unaware of so he has given me a few ways to correct her. Funny how an experienced eye can see things so clearly that the likes of myself would never notice.

There are a few other things as well that he brought to my attention. All in all Stella is going very well for who she is but we are going to tweak with her a bit, see what happens. She is a very complex work in progress according to him. See how we go.

Also he was watching Sonny & then said that he was in pain I was so shocked. I had no idea. He went over him. Seems my boy has some back soreness & I am to get his back Xrayed. So he is off to the Vet on Monday. Fingers crossed it is nothing to serious. Oh no more worry. Enough already.....

[hankdog]

That's what you needed...more dog problems. I hope Sonny is okay. My experience suggests vet behaviourists will make a PTS decision sooner than a regular behaviorist. I wonder if their legal liability makes it so. I guess though it's up to what the owner is prepared to do. Clearly you're prepared to put the work in and you're responsible in your management of Stella which would make her less of a liability than a less reactive dog who with an owner in denial about her problems.

It's interesting that you should interrupt her flight response. The trainers I've used have all spoken of encouraging a flight as a better alternative to fight. This morning we rounded a corner straight into the face of a very excitable ridgie youngster who lunged at us in surprise, I was so very grateful for my emergency u turn and flight response. We walked back past after crossing the road a fair way away and it went well but if it hadn't been for that first run away it could have been disastrous.

Jake came home Saturday and apparently he leapt all over OH for about 5 minutes before he got in the car. I got home yesterday and he was happy to see me but after about 2 minutes started meaningfully wandering through his walking gear. He seems to have coped well, he's not particularly clingy and has just been his normal demanding self. I think with a dog like this the backup of a good kennel/ training system is vital. Last week was an emergency trip and how I would have coped without that system in place I don't know.

[BC Crazy]

Yes thanks Hankdog. I too hope my boy is OK. Gotta remember to breathe LOL. It is difficult with worry at times isn't it?

I think I'm to interrupt her flight because her anxiety excalates by 1000% when she flee's. So I am to redirect her eg. call her & get her to perform a trick or something. Snap her out of that thought pattern.

Gosh I love the U turn. We do it whenever we need to & it saves a lot of 'fuss' usually. Yes I would loooovvvvee a great regular trainer. That would be a godsend for me.

Glad to hear Jake coped well last week & is not over clingy. That's great progress Hankdog

Edited April 7, 2014 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

Oh I might not have explained myself very well HankDog regarding interrupting her 'flight'. The behaviourist suggested I redirect Stella in between the split second when she first goes to react to something she hears, before she takes off running/whining etc.Timing is crucial A lot easier said than done but when I have actually succeeded it has worked very well. She defused her & she didn't entered that elevated state of arousal.

[hankdog]

That makes sense. For Jake it was a case of giving him a flight rather than fight option. If her natural reaction is flight then I guess she's never going to learn the scary thing isn't scary.