Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[raineth]

Haha, yes he does have the Staffy Stubborn Gene..

He wouldn't lay down and try to go to sleep, where he wouldn't have to put up with the nausea - he remained standing with his head hanging and panting the whole way to Kurrajong and back (from Canberra). :laugh:

Oh dear Ziggy! Perhaps a bit too stoic :laugh:

[hankdog]

That's so good Snook. Impossible to do but I've wondered if it would help if Jake saw no other dog for a year, sort of a wipe memory clean time and then start again? He got worse when we were trying the BAT style setups whereas he has improved since we stopped trying to get him to be "nice " to dogs and rather just ignore them.

I'm a bit sad right now. I'd dropped Jake down to 10mg Prozac and he's such a little firecracker on that dose. He's more alert and playful. He'll grab his stuffed fox and run around with it and leap between the couches. He does flatten-you zoomies down the hall and generally has a blast. The downside is that he is constantly agitated and needing to go so he will pace constantly, sleep fitfully and bark at the smallest noise, someone coughing will set him off and I'm back to having a bathroom companion. Strangely he hasn't increased his on-leash aggression, rather the extra alertness seems to have translated into more focus on me when training and when seeing a dog. Off-leash he has been less controlled when seeing my neighbours' dogs. I put his dose back up to 17mg today as he was up most of the night needing to check out stuff and I feel like I'm saying goodbye to a part of him. Anyway I'm seeing a new vet who does housecalls at no extra cost tomorrow so we will talk a bit about other options.

[BC Crazy]

Great news Snook :)

Gosh hankdog, a Vet that makes house calls at no extra cost, Terrific !! Especially for us folks with reactive dogs.

I too have found Stella has dramatically improved her dog reactivity using LAT rather than BAT style training. She just doesn't like other dogs. I don't think she ever will so I am not going to continually upset her by trying to make her.

As far as meds go, I also tried to gradually reduce Stella's Kalma dose by a small amount. Her actual liveliness didn't change at all. She still did her zoomies & played like she does on the higher dose of meds so no change there. The big change was NO sleep. No nap during the day at all. She was on full noise patrol. The slightest sound & she would take off ,screaming & barking till I calmed her down. She barely slept at night either. Same thing she would hear something & bark. I would be up half the night with her. She is a pacer as well like Jake. So we are back on our regular dose. She & I are now getting some rest.

While I wish she didn't need meds, I have excepted that she does for some quality of life. I have found of late that since I have stop trying to wish Stella was a 'better' or normal dog & just embracing her for her courage & how far she has come. Handling her doesn't seem as hard. I think I have changed the way I view her & try to focus on all her positives. She tries so dam hard to please me & is the sweetest natured girl, honestly. If that makes any sense. Sorry not very good at expressing myself .

Edited November 19, 2013 by BC Crazy

[raineth]

Awwww.. poor Zig being so sick.

I haven't posted any updates for a while as we haven't really had any encounters with other dogs outside of Justice's behaviourist sessions, which are going really well. I haven't done any specific work on his reactivity other than those sessions so I was very surprised at how good he was in the groomers last week. Normally when he has his appointments there aren't any other dogs in there (the groomer knows he's reactive and it's a small salon) and we're gone before the next dog arrives. I'm a bit dense and turned up a day early last week and there were two smallish dogs in there in a crate that wouldn't stop barking and they and Justice could see each other from the reception area. Justice didn't bark back once and just kept moving behind a barrier so that he couldn't see them. The owner of those dogs came in to pick them up before he went in for his bath and nails so we waited in the waiting room off to the side to avoid running in to them. While they were leaving another owner came in with two medium/large dogs who got popped in to the crate and they spent the entire time we were there going nuts, barking and making this high pitched yelp/scream sound. The groomer had to walk Justice right past them at a really close distance on the way in to be bathed and on the way out again and even though he was with someone other than me, he still didn't react. He was stressed but kept himself under control, which I was amazed at. I really need to intentionally take him places where there are other dogs to make sure the work we've done over the past year or so doesn't start dropping off through lack of exposure.

Wow! Great work Snook and Justice

That's so good Snook. Impossible to do but I've wondered if it would help if Jake saw no other dog for a year, sort of a wipe memory clean time and then start again? He got worse when we were trying the BAT style setups whereas he has improved since we stopped trying to get him to be "nice " to dogs and rather just ignore them.

I'm a bit sad right now. I'd dropped Jake down to 10mg Prozac and he's such a little firecracker on that dose. He's more alert and playful. He'll grab his stuffed fox and run around with it and leap between the couches. He does flatten-you zoomies down the hall and generally has a blast. The downside is that he is constantly agitated and needing to go so he will pace constantly, sleep fitfully and bark at the smallest noise, someone coughing will set him off and I'm back to having a bathroom companion. Strangely he hasn't increased his on-leash aggression, rather the extra alertness seems to have translated into more focus on me when training and when seeing a dog. Off-leash he has been less controlled when seeing my neighbours' dogs. I put his dose back up to 17mg today as he was up most of the night needing to check out stuff and I feel like I'm saying goodbye to a part of him. Anyway I'm seeing a new vet who does housecalls at no extra cost tomorrow so we will talk a bit about other options.

aww that's no good that it makes you feel that way Hankdog. It must be very hard getting that balance right. You need a 13 mg tablet or something. :)

I think it's wonderful though that you've found that vet!

Great news Snook :)

Gosh hankdog, a Vet that makes house calls at no extra cost, Terrific !! Especially for us folks with reactive dogs.

I too have found Stella has dramatically improved her dog reactivity using LAT rather than BAT style training. She just doesn't like other dogs. I don't think she ever will so I am not going to continually upset her by trying to make her.

As far as meds go, I also tried to gradually reduce Stella's Kalma dose by a small amount. Her actual liveliness didn't change at all. She still did her zoomies & played like she does on the higher dose of meds so no change there. The big change was NO sleep. No nap during the day at all. She was on full noise patrol. The slightest sound & she would take off ,screaming & barking till I calmed her down. She barely slept at night either. Same thing she would hear something & bark. I would be up half the night with her. She is a pacer as well like Jake. So we are back on our regular dose. She & I are now getting some rest.

While I wish she didn't need meds, I have excepted that she does for some quality of life. I have found of late that since I have stop trying to wish Stella was a 'better' or normal dog & just embracing her for her courage & how far she has come. Handling her doesn't seem as hard. I think I have changed the way I view her & try to focus on all her positives. She tries so dam hard to please me & is the sweetest natured girl, honestly. If that makes any sense. Sorry not very good at expressing myself .

:) :) :)

[maddogdodge]

I'm a bit late for the conversation but Staffyluv, I'm so sorry to hear about Zig!

I've had an interesting turn of events the past few days. For my birthday my Mum got me series 3 of Cesar Millan's Dog whisper show. I've been watching a fair bit, it was very interesting to see him work with an Aussie who had basically exactly the same issues as Koda just more extreme. I thought to myself "why not give Cesar's method a go to see if it works with Koda."

We had a very busy day at my house that day. Dad had lots of people coming with scrap metal and there was a big tractor moving silage bales around in the paddock near the house as well. So there was lots of activity and strangers around.

I tried out the method of doing the 'chhtt' sound sometimes with a quick correction via a tug on the leash or a tap on the neck/shoulder area whenever Koda started to show signs that he was going to react to something. I am almost in disbelief of how effective this was, and I almost feel like I've been using the wrong method for Koda this entire time.

Yes, I saw a behaviourist and she advised me to do the whole 'look and treat' thing. But with the environment at my house, it is almost impossible for me to keep Koda under his threshold all the time for that method to work. So Koda is responding to this new method much better. With the 'look and treat' method, Koda would look at me to get a treat, but he was generally still in an excited or anxious state of mind. Whereas when I tested Cesar's method on Koda, with only a couple of corrections I had Koda laying down at my feet in a calm submissive state of mind while there were cars driving in and out of the drive way, 4 strange people wandering around, a tractor going around in paddocks, and chickens clucking very loudly, it was just unbelievable! I think I'll be sticking to this method now, because not only do I feel more confident but Koda seems so much more happy and relaxed. Since that day, I've stuck to this new method, and Koda seems so much more relaxed and calm in general. Also everyone in the household has noticed that he seems more respectful of us in general. :)

[hankdog]

I haven't seen the Milan method but Brenda Aloff also recommends just a light tap on the dogs forehead if they start to become focused on something and then reward or praise as they turn to look at you. K9 pro has and article on using the behavioral interrupter as well. Worked a treat for me until new neighbors moved in and used the same noise on their dogs....oops! If I need to I will sometimes prod Jake in the butt and say "uh-uh" to break him out of an about to launch state. I think that physical contact can sometimes reach them when a voice can't.

[raineth]

I haven't seen the Milan method but Brenda Aloff also recommends just a light tap on the dogs forehead if they start to become focused on something and then reward or praise as they turn to look at you. K9 pro has and article on using the behavioral interrupter as well. Worked a treat for me until new neighbors moved in and used the same noise on their dogs....oops! If I need to I will sometimes prod Jake in the butt and say "uh-uh" to break him out of an about to launch state. I think that physical contact can sometimes reach them when a voice can't.

Hankdog, that kind of reminds me of something LBD said in the recall thread:

A dog in high arousal will prioritise visual stimuli, making their other senses (smell, pain reception, hearing) much much duller. This is one reason why a dog won't respond, but it isn't mutually exclusive from the act being self-rewarding. Dogs can be superstitious: I yell at that thing = it goes away without incident. Yelling is then reinforced and habit-forming. Yelling at the thing is suddenly the most important thing in the world, and the brain can't simultaneously process anything else.

Maybe sometimes touch can get through to a dog in a situation of high arousal where an audio stimuli wouldn't even be processed.

[Staffyluv]

I think CM does good work, so do a lot of other trainers - they all have the method that works for them.

Personally I would be wary of doing that tap on the back leg of a reactive dog that was highly aroused - it might just turn around and bite your foot.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with distraction to counter the re-activeness but I think in some dogs that method might just backfire - especially on someone who really doesn't know how to read dogs like CM seems to be able to do.

Great news Snook, Justice is such a gorgeous boy.

HD is Hank reactive to non reactive dogs? If a dog is ignoring him, does he still react to it?

Just curious - as having a totally non reactive dog around and on walks might help him.

I know my old SBT was reactive (to a degree) to dogs he didn't know. If the dog was reacting back, then he would carry on but if the dog looked away or turned away, he fine to be around them. We actually used a friends non reactive SBT to walk with him and teach him not to carry on. Basically we started walking about 4 metres apart, then we got a bit closer and a bit closer, until they were walking next to each other (about a metre apart).

It takes time, some take much longer than others (weeks/months even) but it CAN help some dogs to understand that they don't need to be on guard all the time).

BC Crazy, all we can do is work with what we have - our dogs are all special in their own way.

What is normal anyway??

I like that Zig is a little crazy, over the top and fun - even if I do require cortisone injections in both elbows and shoulders all the time because he has ruined me :)

The funny thing about Zig and car travel is - he is usually fine for about 30 minutes, then he starts to drool and hang his head. You can see he is sick but the fool won't lay down in his crate and try to go to sleep to get away from it - he just stands in his crate, trying to keep his balance.

However, as soon as he is taken out of the car, he is fine and bounces back really quickly. Then he is fine for another half an hour..

I think we just need to do more trips of over half an hour to desensitize him a bit. Or we just stop every half hour on every trip we do:)

[Weasels]

Oh hello :laugh: Yes I find with Weez it's an escalation: his hearing is the first thing to go, sense of touch then disappears at higher arousal, above that only clicking my fingers in front of his face works, then up to the point when all that can be done is drag him away. Reactivity is a chain of escalation that the dog has gotten into a habit of doing without thinking, sometimes a tap on the butt or shoulder will break the chain and leave the dog a bit confused (which is not dissimilar to suddenly having food appear!), and gives you a chance to train in an alternative behaviour. Incidentally, the prioritising visual stimuli thing is why stuffed dogs work to desensitise and counter-condition highly reactive dogs :) It doesn't stop to take in the details, just the general shape of a dog is enough to start up the reactivity process (really interesting to watch - my girl who's very slightly dog-reactive was much more taken in by the stuffed dogs than my dog-friendly boy).

MDD speaking of superstitious, take Milan stuff with a grain of salt. From everything I've seen he works on instinct, and doesn't really unpack which parts of his approach work and why, and which parts are just along for the ride. As a scientist that irks me i gotta say :laugh: But also his complete lack of understanding or disregard for calming signals means he more than once has called a dog calm when it is really shut down. You know your dog, so I would say keep the stuff that works but be ready to ditch the stuff that doesn't :)

[Weasels]

(Here's a chart from the science of dogs blog showing the physiological changes in a highly aroused dog)

[raineth]

Hey LBD, I hope you don't mind me quoting you :)

I like how you have an idea of exactly how Weez responds in those situations and what you can do to reach him. I might try that with Del.

I have somehow managed to teach Del a really solid sit, that somehow often overrides her reactivity. So in situations where we do get approached (off lead dogs *Sigh*) nine times out of ten she will sit, which is incompatible with lunging, so helpful in that sense.

But once in this sit you can't really get her out of it until the dog is gone (and therefore her arousal is reduced) there is no reaching her.

On the topic of stuffed dogs... I might try that.

I had Del up the main street a while ago where there is a sculpture of a person with their dog. It's a sculpture, but its kind of almost 2d, yet it still fooled Del. She froze, then slowly approached it and poked it with her nose :laugh:

[Weasels]

I don't mind Raineth I find all this stuff really interesting :) And I feel very fortunate to have had the perfect trainer for our situation, who really observed and helped us break down exactly what was happening, video everything we did and set up all kinds of scenarios so we could get to know his reactions well (she even borrowed another client's child for us for a few hours in exchange for ice cream :laugh: ). Also because he was reactive to 'things' rather than dogs it was easier for us to set up scenarios for him. But man, when a racing bike goes right past his head unexpectedly and he turns to look at me without thinking instead of completely losing it, I almost cry with happiness

Your automatic sit sounds like an excellent asset to have, that's awesome So cute with the statue too :p

Edited November 20, 2013 by TheLBD

[raineth]

I don't mind Raineth I find all this stuff really interesting :) And I feel very fortunate to have had the perfect trainer for our situation, who really observed and helped us break down exactly what was happening, video everything we did and set up all kinds of scenarios so we could get to know his reactions well (she even borrowed another clients child for us for a few hours in exchange for ice cream :laugh: ). Also because he was reactive to things rather than dogs it was easier for us to set up scenarios for him. But man, when a racing bike goes right past his head unexpectedly and he turns to look at me without thinking instead of completely losing it, I almost cry with happiness

Your automatic sit sounds like an excellent asset to have, that's awesome So cute with the statue too :p

If only I could remember how exactly I trained it!?

Your trainer sounds really good :) Can I ask if you did BAT-like training or counter-conditioning training with Weez?

Yes I think I'll be crying with happiness too if I get a similar result with Del (with dogs) :)

Del is actually good with bikes, skateboards etc (she actually tries to ride skateboards), and whenever we've had a difficult time and she's had a reaction to a dog, I say to myself 'at least she's good with bikes' it makes me feel a bit better :laugh:

[Weasels]

Always the way with things that work well isn't it - by the time we realise how useful they are we've forgotten how they were done :laugh:

We did D&CC, and once we had enough reduction in his reaction to start training new stuff I added LAT. We discussed BAT but in all honesty the implementation of it still confuses the hell out of me - and what we were doing was working so well we stuck with it. It's always something new though, most recently horses *eyeroll* but we've sorted that out now I think :)

[raineth]

Yeah when I first adopted Digby I used D&CC very effectively on some of the fears he had :)

Del has a thing for horses too. They bring out crazy amounts of prey drive in her! I've got her going ok with horses in paddocks, but we still have a loooong way to go if we're surprised by one when out walking (doesn't happen very often thankfully) :)

[hankdog]

I did a lot of work outside a house that had two concrete lion sculptures out front, Jakes vision is pretty rubbish. I also got a stuffed dog from the op shop and left it in my sisters dogs bed for a week.

It's hard to work out exactly what kind of dog he reacts more or less to. Anything behind an obvious fence is now reasonably easy. If we see an on leash dog and it's plodding along he seems to need to see it notice him. If the dog is a BC no chance. If it makes any obvious excited moves toward him or over enthusiastic calming signals that's bad. If it looks at him and dismisses him and moves on he'll do the same. There's a blonde lab who he's been good with since day one, we can sit outside her gate ( with owners permission) and look at her. I can throw her treats and she can go fetch them and she can look straight at him. She doesn't make excessive calming signals, she stands straight on, she looks at him. but head straight and ears and neck relaxed. Sometimes her tail may wave slowly. I think she's a magic Madonna dog, another man had two reactive Danes and apparently they can look at her too.

The other dog he's good with is a male staffy, he's half of a trained pair. He can sit across the road with the dog in a stay, no fence and the owner next to me. The female of the pair is more friendly and will wag, and make calming signals and even turn her back but he's not happy with that. The male will look at Jake but not stare just keep his body relaxed and look slightly bored.

At training we train next to the kennels and some of the dogs will be quite vocal but he seems to be able to consciously block them out although will occasionally crack. He studiously ignores them.

We once parallel walked with a friends terrier who managed to just ignore Jake and still look like he was enjoying his day out. Jake pretty much barked himself to exhaustion and then studiously ignored. My friend videoed him once he was quiet and he makes sure he never looks at the dog. Unfortunately I haven't found anyone game for a repeat Jake experience!

I know we shouldn't anthropomorphise but I do think if there was a dog autism syndrome Jake might be somewhere on the Aspergers end. I think of him as the socially awkward kid wearing his three pairs of lucky undies and wrapping his head in tinfoil so the government can't read his thoughts.

ETA He also does the butt plonk, it's better than lunging but I'm trying when I can to get him to keep going, what I'm trying to do us switch the peanut butter from a distraction, to a lure and finally to a reward. So I used to shove it in his mouth as a distraction, now I waft it in front of him and he can get light moving licks. Once he's calm and moving along I will pat him, praise and allow him a couple of big licks. Always tailored to the situation but the aim is to fade the luring and just give it as a reward and finally just a oat and praise. Hahaha. I dream.

Edited November 20, 2013 by hankdog

[hankdog]

Who knows what goes on in Jakes mind. At training we were walking past the dog paddock and realized he was getting stuck at a certain point so decided to train there. Doing ok when he decided to run out and the leash started slipping through my fingers...ouch! Anyway stopped it at about 4m away from me about 8m from the fence. He butt plonked and started barking, slow regular barks. I waited 30 seconds and then quietly said his name. He turned and looked, thought about it and went back to barking. Zoe said "Jake , uh-huh" with huge relief he turned and ran to her and sat at heel. No leash pressure just somehow needed that firmness and seemed thankful for it.

I gave her the leash and walked over to the fence and treated the dogs and that didn't seem to bother him at all. Anyway Zoe worked him heeling, sits, downs in a 5 m distance from the dog fence and finally walked him over to me and we stood about a meter from the fence with two big confident dogs having a lively play on the other side. Very interesting because he didn't look at them but was completely terrified, turned his back and ears out to the side but he was completely obedient. Think I'm going to have to tape Zoe's voice because all she does is say "huh-uh" but obviously she has the right tone.

[Jenseeya]

Hi, it's great to read this thread and see what other people's reactive dogs are like and what you're doing about it.

I got Phoenix as a rescue dog a couple of months ago (kelpie/staffie cross - maybe with a bit of Lab) and he's great with people and with dogs he knows but not so great on lead with dogs he doesn't know. So I don't dare take him to the local park to let him off lead.

I'm in the process of training him after a consult with a behaviourist and he's responding pretty well so far.

He also gets car sick. I wonder if all of this is anxiety related. I'm hoping he grows out of this but am mindful that he may not. I've got some medication from the vet for longer car trips although that's expensive and I've also ordered some Adaptil upon recommendation from behaviourist.

(Note, I accidentally started my own topic introducing Phoenix. Apologies for dual post.)

[SammieS]

Hi Jenseeya, I saw your post and wondered if you'd found your way into this thread, its very helpful and I'm sure many people will have some advice for you :)

Sometimes its just nice to know that other people know what you're going through, especially knowing that you'll probably never meet them with their dogs in real life because their dog is just like yours!

[Jenseeya]

Hi Jenseeya, I saw your post and wondered if you'd found your way into this thread, its very helpful and I'm sure many people will have some advice for you :)

Sometimes its just nice to know that other people know what you're going through, especially knowing that you'll probably never meet them with their dogs in real life because their dog is just like yours!

Thanks, and yes. My last dog was pretty good although sometimes she was unpredictable. But because I could take her to the local park and let her off lead I met heaps of people and their dogs in the local area. Can't do that with this dog, and I'm now understanding it may never happen. It's a pity!