raineth Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Del did really well raineth. Even with swf's and bug eyed cattle dogs. Well done to you both.Sorry to hear she has a sore elbow. We wish her a speedy recovery :) Aww thanks BC Crazy, I passed your message on, and she groaned in response :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) Jake had another slammer......I need a new vet. If I'd have not stayed with him he would have bitten someone or something, They just have no idea on handling him. He had a strange reaction to the initial sedation, his back end went to sleep but he was crying and thrashing with his front end. What I thought was going to be a biopsy turned out to be complete removal. He's had a kong cloud on until today but he managed to rub his face on the floor and tear the stitches out today. Despite all that he seems to be remarkably cheerful. I don't know if it's the training or after a year the Prozac has kicked in or possibly his new food. He seems to be more playful and happy in the last two weeks, today at training he was rolling around getting belly rubs and we were right next to the kennels. I gave him to our trainer and disappeared around the corner and he worked very well for her. I've been asking him to heel when we pass dogs, figured I might divert all that extra go he gets and it's working surprisingly well. I guess training the heck out of him isn't going to make him dog friendly but at least it will make him more obedient whilst in the presence of other dogs and that's really all I can ask for. Sorry this is a bit long. Just needed a bit of a vet rant. ETA. If you want to see how Jake screams check out the frenchie in the thread of immense lol's. Guess it confirms his frenchie half!! Edited October 10, 2013 by hankdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 oh dear, sounds like everything that could have gone wrong, did go wrong for Jake at the vet When my little girl was in hospital we were lucky enough for their to be a play therapist, and this made me think that it would be really good for vets to employ a similar person for animals. A person who can focus on making the animal's experience at the vet better. Whether it be taking five minutes to clicker train a dog to accept eye drops, or ensuring they aren't too stressed on a long term stay. When we adopted Del, I had to take her in to get her stitches removed. She was happy and relaxed on arrival. They took her out the back, and when they came back she was really stressed and the vet nurse told me how it took five of them to flip her on her side and hold her down to have the stitches out Never even occurred for them to ask her to drop (which she would have done). I know they are busy, but sometimes it would end up being quicker to do things in a nicer way. No surprises the next time we went to the vet Del was stressed straight away. anyway... It sounds like all things (non vet related) are going really well for Jake! I agree that training, even if it doesn't directly relate to reactivity, can only be helpful :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 That would be such a good idea. I've trained Jake in a bunch of tricks aimed at making him easier to examine but the approach seems to be to grab and force them into a position. Not surprising so many dogs are terrified of the vets. This behaviour issue really complicates things doesn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) That would be such a good idea. I've trained Jake in a bunch of tricks aimed at making him easier to examine but the approach seems to be to grab and force them into a position. Not surprising so many dogs are terrified of the vets. This behaviour issue really complicates things doesn't it. Yeah when we were there the other day, whenever they wanted her to stand still they immediately grabbed her collar. So I would say its ok, tell Del to 'wait' and give her some treats while she waited. I hope that one day it might catch on, you never know. It's amazing what they (our dogs) put up with really. They were flexing Del's elbow to the point where she was crying and she just stood there and put up with it because I asked her too. I gave her lots of praise and treats and everything, but it certainly reminded me of just how much they are willing to put up with from us humans sometimes. Edited October 14, 2013 by raineth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Wouldn't it be great if they ran a short course at the vets where the dogs were trained to adopt examining positions. A bit like the zoo keepers do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hankodie Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Hi all! Hope you and your doggies are doing well :D I just wanted to hear your thoughts about walking Hank and Odie together. Both of them get separate training + walks during the day but lately on the odd occasion I have been walking them together at quiet times during the day (usually lunch time if it's not too hot as we hardly ever see any other dogs around). It has been going well and both keep their focus on me during the walk. I also keep it short as Hank is only little so it's only about 10 minutes up and down our street. Anyway today I thought I'd take them out and do some training along the way. We walked for a bit and i had to stop as I was getting the leads tangled up so we stopped at a corner so I could untangle them and out of nowhere an off leash lab popped up and Odie started going nuts - pulling, lunging, screaming, the works. This obviously startled Hank the puppy and he sort of started to jump around too (though he looked like he had no idea what all the commotion was about). My question is, would it be possible that Hank would pick up on Odie's reactivity and adopt this behaviour for himself? As I wrote earlier he has been pretty much bulletproof apart from a couple of minor issues (which are mostly things like pulling occasionally on the lead). Around other dogs he is fantastic. He is friendly as ever but when I ask him to ignore them he does and I can always call his attention away and back to me. Before we added a puppy to the family I was (and am) committed to walking them separately for life, so if it's too much of an issue I can just go back to strict separate walks but I just thought I'd post here and hopefully hear your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 (edited) Hi Hankodie :) I'm not an expert, but I definitely think it is possible. Dog's learn in three ways: operant conditioning classical conditioning modelling Modelling is the one that we don't play around with much, if at all. But it would be the way that Hank might learn to be reactive. I have actually played around with modelling (not in that context though) and you can teach a dog to do something by having them observe another dog do it. I know there was a study conducted on puppies whose mothers were trained detection dogs. They found that if they gave the puppy the opportunity to watch their mother dog work; they learnt to do detection work themselves more quickly. I have played around with modelling (just for the fun of it) with my dogs and have found that they can learn a variety of basic things from modelling. I even found that I could use my kids as models and they would copy that behaviour. It was basic stuff, but I was amazed at how quick it was, often just one repetition. eta: I forgot to say that although I think it's possible, that doesn't mean I have any idea how likely it would be in your context for Hank to pick up on the behaviour. I imagine it might be a bit more likely while he's a puppy. It would also potentially depend on whether he found it reinforcing. But I really don't know be worth the risk. Have you thought of maybe seeing if it could work the other way round? Maybe your partner could have Hank, and you could have Odie. Hank could be closer to another dog, while Odie watches on from a distance. Make sure she sees Hank being lavishly praised and rewarded for being calm in the presence of the other dog. Could be worth a try maybe? I wonder what Aidan would make of it, he's a bit of an expert on reactive dogs. Edited October 15, 2013 by raineth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Just found this thread and so happy I have :-) I've started seeing a delta trainer for my beautiful girl who is dog aggressive on lead .. We have come a long way just her and I but I am hoping we can progress even further .. I walk at the crack of dawn and very late at night just so we can walk in peace :-) Looking forward to reading this thread as sometimes I could cry after running into owners with dogs not in control that make our walking experience hellish :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Just found this thread and so happy I have :-) I've started seeing a delta trainer for my beautiful girl who is dog aggressive on lead .. We have come a long way just her and I but I am hoping we can progress even further .. I walk at the crack of dawn and very late at night just so we can walk in peace :-) Looking forward to reading this thread as sometimes I could cry after running into owners with dogs not in control that make our walking experience hellish :-( welcome mumof4girls :) It's great that you have already come a long way with her any photos for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hankodie Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Hi Hankodie :) I'm not an expert, but I definitely think it is possible. Dog's learn in three ways: operant conditioning classical conditioning modelling Modelling is the one that we don't play around with much, if at all. But it would be the way that Hank might learn to be reactive. I have actually played around with modelling (not in that context though) and you can teach a dog to do something by having them observe another dog do it. I know there was a study conducted on puppies whose mothers were trained detection dogs. They found that if they gave the puppy the opportunity to watch their mother dog work; they learnt to do detection work themselves more quickly. I have played around with modelling (just for the fun of it) with my dogs and have found that they can learn a variety of basic things from modelling. I even found that I could use my kids as models and they would copy that behaviour. It was basic stuff, but I was amazed at how quick it was, often just one repetition. eta: I forgot to say that although I think it's possible, that doesn't mean I have any idea how likely it would be in your context for Hank to pick up on the behaviour. I imagine it might be a bit more likely while he's a puppy. It would also potentially depend on whether he found it reinforcing. But I really don't know be worth the risk. Have you thought of maybe seeing if it could work the other way round? Maybe your partner could have Hank, and you could have Odie. Hank could be closer to another dog, while Odie watches on from a distance. Make sure she sees Hank being lavishly praised and rewarded for being calm in the presence of the other dog. Could be worth a try maybe? I wonder what Aidan would make of it, he's a bit of an expert on reactive dogs. Thanks raineth, that is very helpful as always! Great breakdown. The only other time we ever take them out together is when my partner and I take them both to the beach - he usually takes Odie (for some reason she is much better at keeping below threshold with him, probably because i am a stress head) and I take Hank. I have tried rewarding Hank in front of Odie but most of the time she's on too high of an alert to really absorb it & take notice I must say though that certain aspects of her behaviour have improved since having Hank in our lives. Sometimes we take them both out to a quiet field next to an oval for some recall/training practice on long leads. Occasionally there are dogs on the other end of the oval. Previously this would send Odie into a spin but since Hank has been around she has been ignoring them in favour of games/training/whatever we happen to be doing. I definitely do not want to risk Hank's training over it which is why I thought I'd post here and hear some thoughts. I just feel so sad that Hank gets to experience all these fun things and Odie can't it breaks my heart. Sometimes I wish she spoke human for 5 minutes so I could tell her "hey listen. You don't need to worry about other dogs. Just focus on me and we can go everywhere and have lots of fun! Okay?" What kind of exercise routine do you have down with your dogs if you don't mind me asking raineth? (if I recall correctly you also own a non-reactive doggy?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 oh I know! Wouldn't it be great if we could just sit them down and have a chat!? Yeah I have the two beasties: Digby, who is non-reactive; and Del. I walk them separately most of the time. Sometimes we'll go together with OH walking one of them, but OH hates this so it doesn't happen very often :laugh: Digby wears a back-pack with weights on our walk to keep him buff. I don't know if you've ever seen a photo of him, but his body shape is similar to a bullmastiff, so jogging is not really his thing. Whereas Del and I run together a few times a week. Digby often does get to go more places not just because of the reactivity but also because he is just generally easier. He likes to be obedient and he's generally sensible. I can take him to places that I just would never really consider taking Del. Like my parent's place. They have a very steep block and I'm sure at some point she would have zoomies and total herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Raineth's advice was spot on, the definitely can learn by observation. That said, overwhelmingly I find that for clients with more than one dog in the house, they usually only have one reactive dog. I think you should walk them separately every so often if for no other reason than to work on their leash manners and obedience without distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hankodie Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Digby often does get to go more places not just because of the reactivity but also because he is just generally easier. He likes to be obedient and he's generally sensible. I can take him to places that I just would never really consider taking Del. Like my parent's place. They have a very steep block and I'm sure at some point she would have zoomies and total herself. Hahaha this sounds like my dogs! Digby sounds very handsome, I don't think I've seen a photo of them before! Raineth's advice was spot on, the definitely can learn by observation. That said, overwhelmingly I find that for clients with more than one dog in the house, they usually only have one reactive dog. I think you should walk them separately every so often if for no other reason than to work on their leash manners and obedience without distraction. Thanks Aidan that makes me feel a lot better I will definitely keep up the separate walks. Hank loves walking with Odie but he does tend to get too distracted so I make sure he gets some separate walking time. So glad I found this thread! It's been very reassuring hearing from others & reading about how everyone else is doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Hi guys and gals, I will go back and catch up on what is going on with everyone later this week when I have a little more time but wanted to share Ziggy's first day training in the Novice group at obedience.. Oh wow, who would have ever thought my little loony would ever be able to be in a large group of dogs (dogs running all over the place in different groups on the same ground), be off lead and not take off and want to kiss every single dog he could get near.. I know a year ago, I never saw this day.. Well, that is exactly what we did last Sunday.. Lead hanging from his collar and only on a few occasions did I have a hold of it (and it wasn't to restrain him, it was just to keep it from under his feet).. We are working on 360 degree turns, both left and right, while heeling (something they do in dancing with dogs). Still going with recall, which has improved out of sight. His heel work is getting to a standard that I am so proud of. He stays, when I put him in a stay (be it sitting, standing or dropped), until I release him... I have to say the Novice group of people are mostly very serious about it all. I think they may be a little serious for us - I have no intention of ever trialling him. I just want to take him as far as I can. I like talking to him, encouraging him etc but the group are all about one command and then nothing until the next command. I was told, tossing him a ball (after he has finished each round of commands) and telling him he is a good boy is 'over the top' and 'not allowed'.. We are starting at agility next week as well (instead of Rally-O) - it is just at club level and we only compete with each other for fun.. Sounds much more like my cup of tea. Any how, here is a pic taken this afternoon after we had been to the dog park for half and hour and then home to do 5 minutes or so of 360 turns, stays and recalls. Zig 2013.10.15 by jamoore photos, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Staffyluv that is really inspirational! You must be delighted :) and look at Ziggy laying there looking very pleased, he's a cutie :) Raineth's advice was spot on, the definitely can learn by observation. That said, overwhelmingly I find that for clients with more than one dog in the house, they usually only have one reactive dog. I think you should walk them separately every so often if for no other reason than to work on their leash manners and obedience without distraction. That's an interesting observation; about even in multiple dog house holds, usually only one dog is reactive. I think it reactivity might follow the diathesis-stress model in which dogs with a biological predisposition, when put under a certain amount of stress will develop reactivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 They most certainly do learn by observation - I never realised this before but the last foster girl I had here (Zippy), had never done obedience before. I took her to our club (as they allow me to train the fosters for free). She was easy to teach but she also used to follow Zig with everything he did. This is why she could sit and stay for as long (even longer) than he did. Her heel work was awesome because I would heel him and she would heel beside him. It took a little longer to get her to drop but once I did, she was fine and her recall was fantastic. Again I would sit and stay them, walk away and recall and they would both run to me at the same time.. We used to do this in the back yard - training two dogs isn't easy at a park but doing it in my own backyard was really easy. She used to follow his moves and when it came to go to class, she already had most of it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Zippy past tense..did she find herself a home then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Zippy past tense..did she find herself a home then? She did, they stole her heart away from me.. Great home, older kids, dad works from home, they take her to obedience training and they love her to bits... We all miss the little Miss but the consolation is that she is better off with a family all her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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