Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Guest hankodie]

Thanks for the welcome! :D

Corvus very interesting insight thank you, I'm just reading up links on BAT now. I am located on the central coast. I have worked with a couple of trainers and I regularly see a trainer now who is great, however all of our training has revolved around food as a motivator + reward.

Teekay, I can sometimes use her food as a reward on walks but in the last few months she has been having terrible vomiting spells and anything I feed her seems to irritate her stomach especially if we are walking and I'm giving her treats Before then I've occasionally "cheated" and used cheese during training which she loves, I have been able to call her away from situations/reacting to other dogs pretty successfully using cheese but she really isn't supposed to have it (at least on it's own) and a couple of times had adverse reactions to it. Her diet consists of a very strict protein intake so cheese on it's own isn't doing her liver any good (her condition is inoperable so her treatment will rely on lifelong management of diet & protein restriction).

After all of that I've made her sound like some very sick miserable doggy and she's not :laugh: despite all of her misfortunes she is still very energetic, loves people, is super cuddly and hilarious, loves other dogs (when not on leash) is incredibly intelligent and independent.

And despite her reactivity on lead she is surprisingly a very good sport in the few instances where she's been charged at by other dogs (idiot owners ). Just last week we were walking down the street and there was a girl walking her chocolate lab off lead. Before I could even begin to cross the street the lab charged Odie and growled and she didn't react. For some reason her trigger seems to be if we are stopped/stationary or not walking fast, or if the other dog is in close proximity (either off leash or on). She also reacts to dogs walking down our street but I've trained her to "go to her place" when she barks which has been successful - she'll bark a few times, I'll give the command, she'll run to her place and I tell her "thank you" and she settles.

If she has room to greet the dog, then she is fine. It's just when she is on a leash that she turns into a total nightmare

Anyways, apologies for ranting and raving, glad to have found somewhere where I can share my struggles! Teekay here are a couple of photos of my kids :)

Posing for the camera :laugh:

And here is the newest addition to our family, Hank... he has been miles easier than Odie was as a puppy... he's very enthusiastic about his training, I am really hoping I don't make the same mistakes with him (my trainer tells me he will be a different dog, I really hope so!)

[raineth]

Hi Hankodie

Aww what cuties they are!

As Corvus said, I think BAT could be a really useful option for you with Odie's dietary restrictions. You can get it as an ebook if that help you :)

If her protein need to be restricted can you maybe use something with very little protein in it that she may like? I know some dogs do like fruit and vegetables. My Del loves banana and our friend's Lab salivates for watermelon. Would something like that be an option for Odie? Or could you maybe only feed her her meals in training? Sorry I obviously don't know much about the problem so I hope these suggestions aren't frustratingly impossible!

What a good girl she was with that Lab! You obviously have a good foundation with her :)

[Guest hankodie]

Thanks Raineth! :) No not frustrating at all, any and all suggestions welcome, thank you! :)

I have fed her fruit & veggies as treats in the past which she enjoys, however lately she's been going through a few vomiting spells and any and all food I feed her on walks seems to upset her tummy, so there are often times where I have to forgo any treats at all which is a pain as it makes training quite inconsistent Also when I've tried to use veggies/fruits on walks, she will follow through one or two commands and then realise that I only have what she must deem as "low value" treats on me and she will often choose to engage in reactive behaviour over listening to me as she finds it more rewarding that the treats I have on hand if that makes sense (I am in no way a professional - this is just how I've interpreted it). Prior to diagnosis we were feeding her all sorts of yummy things like beef liver so she is less than pleased that treats have been replaced with veggies :laugh:

Her meals as treats are an option, I cook her food for her so it's quite hard to carry, I've tried blending & freezing it and cutting it up into tiny squares. However again, if we are walking and I'm feeding her, it will often upset her tummy and she'll vomit. There was a period there where we thought she had megaesophagus because any type of activity after/during eating would result in her vomiting we had x-rays done which showed that her digestive system is functional, so we suspect it's linked to her liver issues/nausea. Also, the same problem lies with her meals - she regards it as "low value" as it's nothing special and she knows she will get fed the same thing at home. So she will often choose to engage in reactive behaviour and will ignore the food. She's on a very strict feeding regime as well so skipping meals is not really an option

On top of all that she has the stubborn nature of 100 bulldogs combined! Anything I ask her to do is almost always followed up with a look that says "I'm not doing that" or "**** you, what's in it for me?" :laugh:

anyways I apologise for the essay and I appreciate all of your suggestions/information! :) Off to search for books on BAT training - any specific titles to look out for?

Edited August 22, 2013 by hankodie

[raineth]

Thanks Raineth! :) No not frustrating at all, any and all suggestions welcome, thank you! :)

I have fed her fruit & veggies as treats in the past which she enjoys, however lately she's been going through a few vomiting spells and any and all food I feed her on walks seems to upset her tummy, so there are often times where I have to forgo any treats at all which is a pain as it makes training quite inconsistent Also when I've tried to use veggies/fruits on walks, she will follow through one or two commands and then realise that I only have what she must deem as "low value" treats on me and she will often choose to engage in reactive behaviour over listening to me as she finds it more rewarding that the treats I have on hand if that makes sense (I am in no way a professional - this is just how I've interpreted it). Prior to diagnosis we were feeding her all sorts of yummy things like beef liver so she is less than pleased that treats have been replaced with veggies :laugh:

Oh dear! I bet she is!

Her meals as treats are an option, I cook her food for her so it's quite hard to carry, I've tried blending & freezing it and cutting it up into tiny squares. However again, if we are walking and I'm feeding her, it will often upset her tummy and she'll vomit. There was a period there where we thought she had megaesophagus because any type of activity after/during eating would result in her vomiting we had x-rays done which showed that her digestive system is functional, so we suspect it's linked to her liver issues/nausea. Also, the same problem lies with her meals - she regards it as "low value" as it's nothing special and she knows she will get fed the same thing at home. So she will often choose to engage in reactive behaviour and will ignore the food. She's on a very strict feeding regime as well so skipping meals is not really an option

On top of all that she has the stubborn nature of 100 bulldogs combined! Anything I ask her to do is almost always followed up with a look that says "I'm not doing that" or "**** you, what's in it for me?" :laugh:

anyways I apologise for the essay and I appreciate all of your suggestions/information! :) Off to search for books on BAT training - any specific titles to look out for?

Well its certainly a tricky situation. Poor girl feeling nauseous out on walks not fun at all.

When I first came on here everyone recommended BAT by Grisha Stewart

and Control unleashed. And that was fantastic advice because these are both really good

You don't need treats to train BAT.

And Control unleashed has some really good exercises for getting your dog to calm down through massage. That could be really good for Odie.

Does she love attention and pats at all, or are they not worth so much to her when she's outside? I guess also if she's feeling nauseous she's probably not that much into playing?

[BC Crazy]

Hankodie. Come join the rest of us that are on the huge learning curve of owning a reactive pooch :) Your guys are so cute, especially Hank, got a major soft spot for baby retrievers

Well you have got a double whammy, a reactive girl with pretty major health issues. Poor little Frenchie Sounds like you are doing a terrific job thus far. I have a very reactive girl who is as healthy

as & I struggle to cope at times, so I can only imagine how difficult it must be to have a pup with both health & behavioural issues.

You have come to the right thread though. I have learnt heaps since joining in here. Everyone has been just so helpful & are fountains of knowledge. It's nice to know you are not alone too. My girl is a handful, very

nervy/reactive/DA etc. So unleashed dogs are my worst night mare too. We are improving with the use of LAT & other methods. She is getting better with maturity as well. She is 2.5 now. Some days she is better than others.

Today she was terrific so you lap up those days She is very biddable though so I have that as a major bonus.

Anyway don't forget to stay calm & assertive as Caesar would say & enjoy !!! :D

Edited August 22, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Guest hankodie]

Thanks so much for the links Raineth, I appreciate it! Looks like I have some reading to do :) I have been meaning to read Control Unleashed as it was recommended in my puppy thread, once I have a break from the crazy doggies later this afternoon I will attempt some quiet reading time :laugh:

BC Crazy thanks for the welcome! Lovely to be able to hear from owners in the same boat, I really don't feel like such a terrible owner after reading through everyone's experiences/advice on this thread :laugh: it's been a relief. Glad to hear about your progress with your pup!

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I'm dragging poor Odie out on walks when she's ill - the vomiting is very passive, she will literally stop, barf, and continue on her merry way. She so often does not look/act sick, the worry is not so much the chronic vomiting but the serious complications that can sometimes arise from that, which is why I'm careful to manage it as best as I can. At the same time I'm trying my hardest to give her a normal doggy life - she is often exploding with energy, I can't leave her cooped up inside all the time as she needs an outlet.

Does she love attention and pats at all, or are they not worth so much to her when she's outside? I guess also if she's feeling nauseous she's probably not that much into playing?

She loves attention but I will be the first to admit she is spoiled. As a result pats/attention are the norm around here and they have no value when we are out and about I have been also reading about NILIF training which may be beneficial in our case. There are a ton of things we are doing that may be making her behaviour worse. We try to enforce things like working for her food, but she gets away with a lot. For example she sleeps IN our bed (not on it - literally in it ) she started off in her crate, then in her doggy bed, then in the bed in the mornings, and now lately in our bed. We really want to get her back into her crate or doggy bed but don't know how to do this as the puppy has only been with us a few weeks and we don't want her to feel as if she's been knocked down the pack rank so it may take some time! Funnily enough, her behaviour around the house has improved 100% since Hank has arrived. I think because my attention has been divided and as a result I don't have time to fuss over her and her health as much. She has been acting less neurotic and actually quite wonderful in regards to her house manners and listening to me. It's really opened my eyes to just how much my worrying affects her

In terms of playing, she loves to play but again, not so much when she is out and about. I've tried setting up a reward system with toys which she will gladly accept around the house but will completely ignore when we are out, even in low distraction environments.

[corvus]

Is she bad on leash around other dogs because she's a frustrated greeter (wants to greet NOW) rather than because she wants the dogs to go away?

Be careful about identifying reactive behaviour as being rewarding. Most of the time it's not at all. Far from it. Perhaps more accurately, her everyday food is not sufficiently distracting enough to overcome her fear/frustration that is driving her reactive behaviour. When we give dogs a choice between a rewarding stimulus and an aversive stimulus we are basically asking them which one is more important to them rather than which one is more rewarding to them. In a sense we are forcing a choice between two very basic motivational systems: appetitive and defensive. If they choose defensive all that tells us is at the moment a dog is more important to them than the food you have. We can change that by making the food better, but we can also change it by making the dog less scary or exciting.

But anyway, sounds like with her problems you should focus on non-food-dependent methods. While you're on BAT, you can also try looking at CAT (Constructional Aggression Treatment). They don't use food at all. Ever. It's generally considered that BAT is more user-friendly and easier on the dogs, but they are pretty similar. The main difference is in CAT they move the trigger away rather than the dog. And in CAT if the dog has a meltdown they wait it out whereas with BAT you call it a mistake and get the dog out asap.

[Guest hankodie]

Be careful about identifying reactive behaviour as being rewarding. Most of the time it's not at all.

Very true, I often assume that she engages in certain behaviours because she finds it rewarding but that's a very human way to look at it!

Is she bad on leash around other dogs because she's a frustrated greeter (wants to greet NOW) rather than because she wants the dogs to go away?

I think in her case she is a frustrated greeter, she also has issues with polite greeting (with both dogs and humans). She sees a dog and she starts whining, lunging, barking, sometimes full on screaming if the dog is in close proximity. In the instances where she does get to greet another dog (with permission from the other owner) on lead she either sniffs politely and is happy to keep moving on, or she initiates play (doing the play bow, tail wagging, play bark, etc). I've also had her behaviour assessed with 2 trainers who have used their dogs to read her language and both say that her behaviour stems from frustration and the fact that she does not know how to politely greet another dog. Both times the trainers dogs were happy to greet her after she had calmed down.

I think her issues are definitely due to wrongdoing on my part. When she was a puppy I was a novice dog owner and I thought "socialisation" was exposing her to any and all situations, dogs, people. I let people and other dogs come up to her and greet her excitedly or impolitely and never took control of her socialisation experience. I deeply regret it now I never taught her that it was OK to ignore other dogs/people and just focus on me.

Thank you again for the book suggestions - downloaded the BAT book last night and have been reading it this morning, there is lots of great information for Hank's training as well :)

[Staffyluv]

Hey guys, I have a quick question..

Zig's recall has been 'pretty' good for a long time now but last week (and ever since) he started this thing where, when I recall him, he runs straight past me and keeps going..

Why would he start that now, after months of doing so well?

If we go to the park together (just him and I) early of a morning and I take him off lead and practice recall he is spot on..

When we went to obedience and we did long lead recall, he was awesome.

We have just started off lead recall at obedience and all of a sudden he is running right past me (even if I have treats on offer).

Anyone have any suggestions?

Do I need to go back to the start and keep him on a short lead and get him to stay and recall on a short lead and then go up to a long lead again - that seems pointless when he already knows it??

[Weasels]

How far past is he going? Is he heading for something/ doing a big loop/ staying out where he's run to?

It's weird! I would do lots of reinforcing the 'sit in front' position with and without the recall, and some 'chase me!' recalls with lots of zigging and zagging rather than a straight A to B path, to see if that helped :)

Edit - I just saw you use the ball for reward, which direction do you normally throw it?

Edited August 23, 2013 by TheLBD

[Staffyluv]

How far past is he going? Is he heading for something/ doing a big loop/ staying out where he's run to?

It's weird! I would do lots of reinforcing the 'sit in front' position with and without the recall, and some 'chase me!' recalls with lots of zigging and zagging rather than a straight A to B path, to see if that helped :)

Edit - I just saw you use the ball for reward, which direction do you normally throw it?

The ball doesn't get thrown as a reward, he gets to catch it (I throw it up in the air, just in front of him - I do the same with treats. He seems to prefer that delivery, than just getting a treat handed to him)..

Once he ran past to the fence line where other dogs where in the run behind us.

He runs past, but then runs back and wants me to chase him.. I turn and walk away and say 'lets go'.. He can't stand the thought of me leaving without him, so he will come after me so I can put his lead on if I do this.

I think you are right and reinforcing the sit in front might be the thing to work on - I was just a bit stunned (as was our instructor - he actually asked me what have I done to Zig because he had been so good)..

[Staffyluv]

And today, he was perfect. Every sit, stay, drop, recall and heel was on the money..

I guess he just didn't feel like it last week??

He was even working off lead with sit stays and drop stays and recall from about 10m away. Not once did he break and run away. He stopped in front of me at recall every time.

I love him to bits but he does my head in sometimes

[BC Crazy]

Well done Ziggy !!! Staffyluv wish my 2 guys where that obedient. Never breaking etc great work.... Zig hss come such a long way. Maybe as you say he just didn't feel like it last week. But I'm hearing ya, mine do my head in too but I love them to bits:)

[Staffyluv]

He didn't do that last week - it was like he was possessed with some demon dog that wouldn't do anything that was asked of him..

Maybe he was having a bad week - but he really did make up for it this week..

[hankdog]

Just keeping you on your toes Staffyluv.

[hankdog]

Good to hear from you Snook. Missing photos and updates on the J- dawg.

I've been quite aware of the above effects with Jake and in one if Corvus' links there was also something about fatigue. Interestingly though and now I can't find the article, giving sugary treats and keeping the brain in glucose may help the dog overcome fatigue. I find with Jake the first ten minutes of a walk are "bouncy" and he won't be good with dogs. Then you can throw quite a few at him for about 20 minutes, then he's tired and goes back to batsh@! for about twenty minutes but after that you can pretty much throw anything at him. I'm not sure if the sugar from the peanut butter kicks in or what but its quite predictable.

Edited August 30, 2013 by hankdog

[corvus]

Hi folks,

I'm leaving DOL for good this time. The break I took last year was good for me, and when I came back I thought I could make it work. Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion this place creates more angst for me than it's worth. I value my professional integrity and it has become clear to me that if I stay here I will have to choose between keeping my mouth shut when I know I have information that could help and being regularly pressed to defend my professional integrity. No one should be above question and I would happily justify what I'm doing and why except that in this case it won't achieve anything in the long run. My history here is too long and bitter and it is no longer about my professional integrity. Probably never was. I just wanted to drop in and say it's because of you guys on this thread that I ever thought I could enjoy DOL again, and I am sorry it wasn't enough. I wish all of you all the very best in your journeys. If you ever want to catch up or have questions, you can find me on Facebook. I am just in the process of kicking off my behaviour consulting business and have a FB page for the business here: https://www.facebook.com/creatureteacher.com.au. Still a few days off getting the website up, but there will be some good content to share on FB.

Love you guys, and I'll miss you if you don't come see me on FB.

[Weasels]

That sucks Corvus I understand, but it's our loss. I could never work out if it was a good or bad idea to bring one's work onto a related public forum - I was always very conservative with social media in my field of study & work, even though it's felt like I was arguing with one hand tied behind my back sometimes. So I suppose it's a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't All the best, and super huge congrats on finishing your PhD!! :D

Edited September 6, 2013 by TheLBD

[BC Crazy]

OH rats Corvus. I'm sad now I really valued your opinion & enjoyed your depth of insight into the world of reactive dogs. I will have to figure out this facebook thing,( yes I am very behind the times) I know :laugh:

So I can keep in contact with you. And LBD is so right, it is our loss I have a degree in nothing but "hats off" to you for getting yours. That is so impressive. Good on you Also thanks for your very valued imput

regarding Stella. You have always been very helpful & supportive to me. For that I am always grateful.

Take care won't you. Until we speak again

[hankdog]

Well darn!!! Thankyou so much for all the help you have been with Jake. Honestly you have been a rock for me and I will definitely have to Facebook friend you. It's obvious you are deeply passionate about your field and I'm sure you're going to make a very valuable academic contribution to help all of us deal with our naughty dogs.