Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Staffyluv]

Sorry to hear your dog was attacked Raineth.

I have had a lot of success with LAT for Ziggy.

Just wanted to pop in and tell you all that Zig has his intermediate assessment next Sunday.

Our trainer went through exactly what will be asked of us and we even did a longer run through of the commands in class and then on our own with her as the assessor.

Zig did really well and she doesn't think we will have any issues at all.

We also had the chance to work today under really distracting conditions (there was a group of dogs, off lead in the supervised play ground section of our dog club field). Dogs running and barking and having loads of fun just 15-20 metres away and Zig still managed to remain in a drop stay until released (about a minute).

[raineth]

Hey raineth, welcome to the thread. It's a shame your dogs been attacked, the scourge of off leash dogs. It's not all bad, by the time you've learned LAT and done some BAT you will have a whole new understanding of the world of dogs. As annoying as a reactive dog is you certainly learn so much.

Thanks Hankdog. Yeah our 'special' dogs certainly open our eyes so much more :)

FYI, Raineth, Erik is on Prozac at the moment and it has certainly helped him. The biggest thing it has done is enable him to sleep more. Not lethargy, but good, restful sleep for several hours a day where he used to be awake and alert most of the time. He was the dog that needed to get out and be exercised a couple of hours a day and now it's not so crucial. I can skip a walk and don't have to pay for it later with endless restlessness and poking. I don't want to discuss it too much here because some people don't like me and it's been hard enough to go this route without having people lean on my insecurities about it. But if you (or anyone else) ever want to know the specifics I'm happy to discuss privately.

No problem I completely understand.

Syaffyluv for your success with Ziggy!

[raineth]

Ok I am really excited to give you all an update.

I downloaded the BAT book to the Kindle on Friday. (I've ordered a hard copy of McDevitt's book too).

Because I've got the BAT book I've started on that.

I thought the logical place to start with BAT was with the dogs behind fences. We did our first session on Friday and I could see some positive changes already - but then the most amazing thing - was there was even hugely noticeable improvements when we began on the Saturday! This made me so excited that I am now completely fired up about it :D

We came across three loose dogs on Saturday, one we were able to avoid but the other two galloped over to us from a distance of more than 100 metres and we couldn't get away.

When this happened I felt quite despondent as Grisha had been writing about how important it is to not let these things happen. Obviously I am going to do my best to avoid these things happening but I think in my situation I am just going to have to do my best with it and keep plugging away.

In the end I was just grateful that they were both friendly and that OH was with me and able to walk them back to their yard so the contact was not prolonged.

On Delta's part she just sat there and let them sniff her but was very obviously way over arousal and shaking like a can of paint in a mixer. When one of the dogs was a bit pushy she shoved her snout at it.

The best thing though was that she recovered from this really well. Her arousal went down within about 2 minutes and we were able to keep going and do a really effective BAT session with a dog that always gets her really worried. I am so proud of her.

Yesterday I came across another loose dog but one I am reasonably familiar with and know that it pays no attention to other dogs unless they walk on its property (and obviously I wasn't going to do that). So we did three sessions with that dog as well from a distance of about 12 or 15 metres.

So already I am really pleased with the results and her arousal levels are so much better now.

So far so good!

[Wobbly]

That's great Raineth!

Just some idle speculation here which may or may not be correct:

I often think that the fact we are paying really close attention to the things that upset our dogs, and then taking proactive control is very noticeable to dogs, and they appreciate our attention to the source of their distress. They are so aware of little body language nuances we aren't consciously aware that we are displaying. They know we've noticed the trigger, and they know we aren't freaked by it and they know we are responding to minimise their distress.

I notice with my dog, if she is having a yap and hackle at whatever (she used to freak at imaginary cats when she was at her worst a few years ago) when she knows my attention is on the source of her distress, and my response is calm and firm, she considers that I have the situation under control and calms down. Whether I notice a cat first, or whether she does has a definite impact on her response, she is less disturbed when i have noticed it first (mostly I do). I know I have seen a big reduction in my dogs distress over cats, despite my ignorance of formal behaviour modification, since I have developed a strong history of proactively responding to her distress, giving her something else to think about and moving her calmly, firmly away. Collectively, despite my ignorance, everything I have done has really helped lower the intensity of her reactivity. She certainly doesn't have a problem with imaginary cats anymore. I think dogs really do understand more than we realise and can recognise the efforts they see us making to help them in response to their triggers, and that can give them some peace of mind that we are looking out for them.

IDK, one of the things that makes me consider this is the issue of thorns in feet. Jarrah has learnt to hold a foot up if there is a thorn in it and I will remove it. I have a built a history that means she knows that delegating the handling of painful and distressing stimuli offers relief. The same with distressing psychological stimuli. LAT may be the psychological equivalent of the dog learning to hold a paw up for thorn removal - letting you know there is a problem so you can take charge of fixing it.

If any of that makes sense.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Wobbly

[corie]

I often think that the fact we are paying really close attention to the things that upset our dogs, and then taking proactive control is very noticeable to dogs, and they appreciate our attention to the source of their distress. They are so aware of little body language nuances we aren't consciously aware that we are displaying. They know we've noticed the trigger, and they know we aren't freaked by it and they know we are responding to minimise their distress.

I agree! Mainly because I think if we manage to notice it first, it doesn't get to surprise us in the first place, which gives us time to think about what to do next. I know one of the times it took me the longest to get my boy under threshold again was when an off lead dog came running up to us during a quick nighttime stroll - and I didn't see him coming at all, so my surprise built on his surprise and so on and so forth...

In other news, B walked past a SWF and jack russel the other day, staring but on loose lead, so I'm really liking our progress. I have problems with him whenever we go off the suburban and onto walking trails (where most people in our area take their dogs) though so we're still working on it.

I also find that if I've stopped walking to chat to someone for an extended period of time, he'll be hyper and pulling every which way once we get going again. Probably just an energy thing, although just something else I'd be working on...

Also... does anyone have dogs here they have to leave alone during working hours? What do you do for them while you're away?

[hankdog]

Well done Staffyluv, Zig is going great guns. Not breaking a stay with dogs nearby is such a huge achievement for our speshul puppies. Good luck for Sunday!

[Staffyluv]

Well done Raineth..

Corie, I have to leave Zig from time to time (I am lucky enough to work from home) but when I do, I find things like stuffed kongs, hidden treats and squeaky toys, bones etc are all things that will keep him occupied for ages.. But mostly he seems to sleep when I am not home.

In summer time, I freeze chicken stock in containers and let him have the frozen container (dilute it a bit and add chicken necks or turkey necks or chicken wings).

Well done Staffyluv, Zig is going great guns. Not breaking a stay with dogs nearby is such a huge achievement for our speshul puppies. Good luck for Sunday!

Thanks HD.. I think my jaw was on the ground for the last while, I just couldn't believe how well he did.

[raineth]

That's great Raineth!

Just some idle speculation here which may or may not be correct:

I often think that the fact we are paying really close attention to the things that upset our dogs, and then taking proactive control is very noticeable to dogs, and they appreciate our attention to the source of their distress. They are so aware of little body language nuances we aren't consciously aware that we are displaying. They know we've noticed the trigger, and they know we aren't freaked by it and they know we are responding to minimise their distress.

I notice with my dog, if she is having a yap and hackle at whatever (she used to freak at imaginary cats when she was at her worst a few years ago) when she knows my attention is on the source of her distress, and my response is calm and firm, she considers that I have the situation under control and calms down. Whether I notice a cat first, or whether she does has a definite impact on her response, she is less disturbed when i have noticed it first (mostly I do). I know I have seen a big reduction in my dogs distress over cats, despite my ignorance of formal behaviour modification, since I have developed a strong history of proactively responding to her distress, giving her something else to think about and moving her calmly, firmly away. Collectively, despite my ignorance, everything I have done has really helped lower the intensity of her reactivity. She certainly doesn't have a problem with imaginary cats anymore. I think dogs really do understand more than we realise and can recognise the efforts they see us making to help them in response to their triggers, and that can give them some peace of mind that we are looking out for them.

IDK, one of the things that makes me consider this is the issue of thorns in feet. Jarrah has learnt to hold a foot up if there is a thorn in it and I will remove it. I have a built a history that means she knows that delegating the handling of painful and distressing stimuli offers relief. The same with distressing psychological stimuli. LAT may be the psychological equivalent of the dog learning to hold a paw up for thorn removal - letting you know there is a problem so you can take charge of fixing it.

If any of that makes sense.

Thanks for that Wobbly, that's very insightful. And you're metaphor for LAT is very nice :)

Poor Jarrah with those nasty pretend cats huh? That made me giggle a bit, she sounds like a character!

I often think that the fact we are paying really close attention to the things that upset our dogs, and then taking proactive control is very noticeable to dogs, and they appreciate our attention to the source of their distress. They are so aware of little body language nuances we aren't consciously aware that we are displaying. They know we've noticed the trigger, and they know we aren't freaked by it and they know we are responding to minimise their distress.

I agree! Mainly because I think if we manage to notice it first, it doesn't get to surprise us in the first place, which gives us time to think about what to do next. I know one of the times it took me the longest to get my boy under threshold again was when an off lead dog came running up to us during a quick nighttime stroll - and I didn't see him coming at all, so my surprise built on his surprise and so on and so forth...

In other news, B walked past a SWF and jack russel the other day, staring but on loose lead, so I'm really liking our progress. I have problems with him whenever we go off the suburban and onto walking trails (where most people in our area take their dogs) though so we're still working on it.

I also find that if I've stopped walking to chat to someone for an extended period of time, he'll be hyper and pulling every which way once we get going again. Probably just an energy thing, although just something else I'd be working on...

Also... does anyone have dogs here they have to leave alone during working hours? What do you do for them while you're away?

Great progress with the SWF and Jack Russell Corie!

The only thing I leave my two are big marrow bones. I used to leave Kongs and that sort of thing but I found it wasn't sending the right message: after Del would finish with the entertainment she would just keep looking for more instead of settling down. I think she had thought that the lesson was that outside time meant treasure-hunting and problem solving. I stopped providing those things and she learned to have a chew on her bone or go to sleep on her bed.

Having said that, they seem to love things hidden in big cardboard boxes.

[corie]

Corie, I have to leave Zig from time to time (I am lucky enough to work from home) but when I do, I find things like stuffed kongs, hidden treats and squeaky toys, bones etc are all things that will keep him occupied for ages.. But mostly he seems to sleep when I am not home.

In summer time, I freeze chicken stock in containers and let him have the frozen container (dilute it a bit and add chicken necks or turkey necks or chicken wings).

Great progress with the SWF and Jack Russell Corie!

The only thing I leave my two are big marrow bones. I used to leave Kongs and that sort of thing but I found it wasn't sending the right message: after Del would finish with the entertainment she would just keep looking for more instead of settling down. I think she had thought that the lesson was that outside time meant treasure-hunting and problem solving. I stopped providing those things and she learned to have a chew on her bone or go to sleep on her bed.

Having said that, they seem to love things hidden in big cardboard boxes.

Thank you! It was the first time I tried using my voice to keep him calm as well - worked far better than I thought it would. Under threshold dog is an amazing dog. He got a bit of cheese after that, smart boy. Haven't got it down pat yet, there's a walking trail where everyone in the area usually passes through with their dogs and unless we power walk through it he loses his head a bit.

My guy usually sleeps 70% of the time he's outside too. I leave him toys, but he only seems to play with them, even just by himself, when a person's around. Sometimes I catch him looking at the birds (our neighbour has a pigeon coop) and just sniffing around being a dog. He would love it if I left him a bone, but when I give him one he'll be at it for an hour before he even gets up to take a drink then goes looking for it again (I've taken it away by now). Then the other day when he was working away at bone I noticed that one of his bottom canines had a chip in it. Not sure if he came to us like that, or it was because a bit of it chipped off after his hour long gnawing sessions. Am I worrying too much? As in, could it be bad for a dog to chew on a bone for too long? I give big knuckle bones, so I'm worrying more about him possibly damaging his teeth if left alone with it for too long rather than him swallowing a chunk down.

[raineth]

hmmm I'm not sure Corie. I know my dogs haven't chipped their tooth from chewing bones, but that doesn't really mean anything. The only thing I'm careful about is throwing the bone out once they've chewed the large softer parts off (the round end bits) because I know the shin part of the bone is too hard to really be chewing.

Does he chew very vigorously?

[raineth]

I approached a complete stranger and their dog yesterday and asked them if they would help me with a BAT set-up for Delta and they said yes!

Their dog is really relaxed around other dogs and is obedient, knows the basics well. So I'm really excited :D

And this morning CU arrived so things are progressing nicely.

I also have in mind a few more dogs and their people in mind who may be able to help me.

The most difficult thing at the moment is that at both ends of our street we have dog problems. One end frequently has loose dogs as well as a very barky, growly, Kelpie and the other end has what I term the 'triangle'. The triangle consists of two very territorial Labradors (in opposite yards) and one house with 4 very territorial smalls.

[hankdog]

Raineth consider your triangle as a training opportunity. If they're all fenced just treat it as a BAT setup and one you have 24/7 access to.

Jake update.....

We are now starting to see leashed walking dogs. Still very stressed but mostly I can shove the peanut butter jar on his nose and this will keep him licking and he may get out some strangled cries but not too bad. As usual Jake likes to push things a little bit.

Yesterday as we were coming home from an uneventful, non-dog sighting walk (thanks rain) he sat down in front of the very last dog before homes' house and started barking. Very much a sounding bark, toneless, repetitive and with a gap between each bark.My approach to unwanted behavior is to stop and wait. Bark, bark, no response. Pokes my leg, looks pointedly at dogs' house. Much excitement and puffing. Nope still ignoring. Staging a do-over (walking back the way we came). More fussing and barking for about 3 minutes. Finally sits down in big humph. Wait till he gives me eye contact "good boy, lets go."

About 20 meters on he got a small check in treat and I'm actually pretty happy with the whole thing. The way I see this is he has now worked out that he is addicted to licking peanut butter. He also knows he gets to do this when he sees a dog and he was confident enough to "call" this known dog so that he could set himself up with a chance to get his hit of peanut butter. Unfortunately it didn't work and the dog didnt appear.

This may appear "naughty" but I don't think Jake has the concept of right and wrong. He operates on a "get stuff I want" basis and if I'm consistent and he can only get what he wants by doing a specific action (looking at a dog) then eventually he will only do right things. "Right" is my subjective judgement, if he had brains for him it would just be the most efficient way to get peanut butter. The bit of barking just shows me he knows how dogs work and is confident enough to use that knowledge, the staged do-over shows he knows how I work. That he proactively tried to get a dog to appear I'm hoping shows an attitude shift. "Dogs are good for peanut butter" as opposed to "dogs must be made to go away by barking."

Edited June 27, 2013 by hankdog

[Wobbly]

Staffyluv a belated congrats on Ziggy's obedience wins. What a good boy. :D :D

Corie I have spoken to my vet about this, as Jarrah's teeth were awful when i got her too, and we have had a few extractions over the years. The vet said yes there is a risk, but you need to balance that with the benefits of tooth and gum cleaning bones provide. IMO you're doing it right, I give marrow bones, but same as you, let her chew the all the cartilage off, and take it away when it gets down to bone so she doesn't chew that.

Hank, Jarrah is the same, there's no "right" or "wrong" just reward opportunities or lack of them. XD If you find yourself feeling happy with an outcome, that is probably a good sign, gut level feeling, i find, often turns out to be insightful in my experience. Rational explanation is always better if you can find it, but it is often very elusive.

Raineth, the pretend cat freakouts were right after the cat trauma (occurred in kennels while I was away, steer clear of "Sydney Dog Training Centre", Jarrah actually came out of the ordeal a lot better than other people's dogs. It might sort of sound funny, but it really wasn't, it was heart breaking to see the result of what they'd done to my dog. It appears I got off lightly compared to others though:

http://www.specialistcanines.com/bitework/2226-damn-irresponsible-trainers-5.html

The training methods were claimed to be non-harsh and reward-based - which is far from the truth. The dog was handed back to us cowering, fearful of human contact, with bleeding sores on its legs and a stress induced growth on its paw - all which remained untreated whilst in their care. Having contacted the centre regarding our complaint and not received any response at all, I would be keen to hear more on this centre.

I too got my dog back with an untreated injury, an open wound to her leg, and she was a very different dog coming out than she was going in. Although cowering is not in her nature, she seemed - the best way I can put this is to say she seemed completely detached from humans, and it was some time (days) before she resumed her previous friendly outgoing attitude toward people. I didn't get a greeting from her when i picked her up - in stark contrast to the greetings I get when i pick her up from the (wonderful) kennels I use now. Fortunately I didn't get any obedience "training" done. I had only asked for her to be desensitised to cats, since they had a nice cat (in retrospect it may have been so chilled because it was drugged, or perhaps it was just a really chilled cat). Mainly I wanted her to have a bit of extra human contact and rewarding while I was away, so just picked cats as something I couldn't desensitise her to myself, for lack of a cat. Given the advertising is "non-harsh, reward based" I had expected proper desensitisation, as in dog moved gradually closer (under threshold) and heavily rewarded. That's the obvious assumption, you would think. Incredibly bad assumption on my part, my single most regrettable mistake ever in regards to my ownership of Jarrah. I failed her very, very badly in assuming the training was as advertised. It's difficult to forgive myself despite the fact that I realise self recrimination is not at all helpful.

I'm just really lucky that Jarrah's innate temperament has allowed her to return to a balanced psychological state and the long term effects (3 years or so later I think) are only still evident in regard to her response to cats. Dogs don't dwell on the past, fortunately and luckily I don't come across too many cats, so we're OK really.

I get the sense that although Jarrah's issues with cats do stem from that horrific trauma (table training?, whats with the leg injuries?) over the years cat confrontation seems to have developed into something of a rewarding activity for her (although it is a neurotic, compulsive sort of pleasure, like an unhealthy addiction, if that makes sense). She will seek cats out, there is definitely reward in there as well as great anxiety and stress. Jarrah is by nature confident, and so it's not unexpected to me that the fear has evaporated to a large degree, leaving this aftermath behind, especially given that cats are small, and she is smart enough to be fully cognizant of her size advantage. I don't understand it to be honest, I am just observing that her fear response (we still have hackles, this is not the pure cat-dog predatory response it should be for her) is all mixed up with a definite dose of pleasure in cat confrontation.

Bear in mind when I write the above, I don't understand what's going on for Jarrah emotionally, and so what I have written here is pure speculation, there may or may not be elements of actual truth to my speculations. I am struggling for comprehension still. Despite my lack of understanding, I am very certain that my best possible outcomes do lie within McDevitt & Grisha's methodologies, these are both sensible methods that are helpful for a huge range of issues.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Wobbly

[corvus]

I get the sense that although Jarrah's issues with cats do stem from that horrific trauma (table training?, whats with the leg injuries?) over the years cat confrontation seems to have developed into something of a rewarding activity for her (although it is a neurotic, compulsive sort of pleasure, like an unhealthy addiction, if that makes sense). She will seek cats out, there is definitely reward in there as well as great anxiety and stress.

Erik hates cats, because my parents' cats have frightened him a few times. But he still looks for them and if he finds them he will bark and if he gets the chance he'll chase them. It's a drive chase rather than a fun chase, though. He's trying to make them go away. It can be tricky interpreting the behaviour of proactive dogs. In my mind, Erik looks for the cats because he thinks they are there and better the devil you know. He doesn't like them, he wants them gone, so he will find them and when he does he'll drive them off and he'll probably feel quite pleased with himself over it because in his mind he saw off trouble before it could find him.

Hankdog, that's awesome. And you handled it really well. It can be a tricky part of the process. Erik does the "Oi! Someone's picking up the drill! I get a treat for that. Come on, pay up!" thing. I ask for quiet until the drill goes down again and THEN he gets a treat.

[hankdog]

Gotta love the "pay up" nudge. With Jakes undershot jaw you can get quite a wack if you forget. Still it means they have an understanding of the rules.

[Staffyluv]

Had to come and show you all how well he did again today.. So proud of him, he came third..

Zig 30.6.13 third place in obedience by Jodie Moore Photos, on Flickr

[BC Crazy]

Well done Ziggy !!!! Bet your mum's proud as punch. He looks a picture of health staffyluv too after his recent illness

[BC Crazy]

Gotta love the "pay up" nudge. With Jakes undershot jaw you can get quite a wack if you forget. Still it means they have an understanding of the rules.

hankdog, off topic I know but have just seen a pic of Jake. He is built like a brick out house, isn't he? :laugh: I had only ever seen a pic of his handsome face.

Bet he takes some holding when he has a reactive moment. I can barely hold Stella & she is half the width of Jake. Very fit looking boy :)

Edited June 30, 2013 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

He is a little outhouse. Weighs in at 23 kg but I keep him lean and we walk/ run for 90 minutes a day. I'm not a fan of the roly poly look which I know is strange for a bulldog owner. He's at the upper limit of my handling capabilities as he has quite a jump. When I said to Vicki that I thought a taller dog would be harder to manage she pointed out her BC was a bit lighter than Jake which was a surprise. BC's must be little whippets under all that fluff. I'm not sure if its easier or harder to have a shorter dog when they lunge? He does get a bit underfoot when he's doing his thing which can be tricky with two leashes, luckily he doesn't do the complete bananas thing anymore.

Today we even got past a BC which is his worst dog to see. The owner was so oblivious to the frantic peanut butter licking that the dog stopped exactly opposite us for a sniff of the weemail. I've perfected the "nothing strange going on with this jar of peanut butter stuck on my dogs nose" look. I do try to only let him see dogs that look calm and under control but he is still quite freaked out and most dogs are still quite unhappy with him. I'm never quite sure how to greet the dogs owners. I'm trying a mixture of smile, wave and thank you, he's in training. Some owners still give me quite a big scowl. I really need my neighbourhood to be Jake friendly or at least tolerant. Some of course are very encouraging which gives me a big smile.

Zig, go you good thing. He looks very proud of himself.

Edited June 30, 2013 by hankdog

[Staffyluv]

Thanks guys, he is over the moon tonight..

Our new foster dog arrived today and she is adorable.

They said she is a staffy cross and just looking at her and watching her play, I think she is crossed with a boxer.

She is about 7 months old now..

She starts obedience with Zig on 21st July - she starts in beginners and he goes up to advanced.. Oh my gosh, how did we get there in just 6 months...

I am so incredibly proud of him - I was about to burst into tears at the presentation today when he got third..