Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Weasels]

No probs Teekay glad it helped in some small way :) We were extremely lucky in the way we were able to set up controlled scenarios and could do almost textbook counter-conditioning with him. All up I think we spent about 2 hours over the sessions and the change in him has been amazing! So I guess it shows what can be done, but again I appreciate it's that much harder with dog-dog reactivity.

E: regarding the sitting still, at the strart of the training we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to break it down and make it easy, to set him up for success; then by the last session we were trying to figure out ways to challenge him more and get him to give a crap about the scooter :laugh:

Edited March 15, 2013 by TheLBD

[megan_]

There is a demo DVD of all the Control Unleashed exercises. It is a bit exe though and you can find lots of examples on You Tube.

We got a bit of a fright on yesterday morning's walk. It was still very dark out and we walked past a huge wall with an open gate. As we walked past the gate Lucy went very tense and growled. I *thought* I saw a huuuuge cat just by the open gate so we did an emergency u-turn, walked a few meters at a quick pace and crossed the road.

Turns out the huge cat was a huge kelpie. Very lucky that he just ignored Lucy's initial growl and didn't follow us. She was great though - as soon as we u-turned she forgot about the dog and walked nicely.

My initial train of thought was "what if he had retaliated to her growling? What if he had followed us?". Had to interrupt this train of thought because it never leads to a good outcome. He didn't retaliate and he didn't follow us. Norty dog provided us with a good opportunity to practice the emergency u-turn in the "wild".

[corvus]

Corvus when I say I wish I was a professional trainer it is only because I do wish I had more time to learn more. Zig would be so much better in the hands of someone who was more comfortable and experienced dealing with his issues..

But he got stuck with me and we do the best we can.

Sorry, I was only trying to say you don't really need to know much. Basic principles can be applied to all sorts of problems. Having said that, Erik has certainly had me twisting my brain into pretzel shapes trying to think my way out of whatever problem he is presenting now. But that's because Erik is smarter than me. :D And better at training me than I am at training him. I think you can do a lot with just a few tools. If you know how to counter-condition, and you can teach a positive interruptor that's strong enough to cut through most distractions, you are well on your way. You just have to remember to err on the side of caution and if in doubt, slow down and wait to see what your dog would do if they had the space and time to think it through.

If it's any consolation, I think even trainers handle some dogs better than others. One of my study dogs was bred to be a service dog, and has been in training for the last 6 months or so. I was talking to one of his trainers on the weekend and said I found him an inconsistent dog. The trainer said almost everyone finds him an inconsistent dog. But one of the trainers seems to speak his language and they get on very well and for that trainer he is consistent.

[Staffyluv]

Corvus when I say I wish I was a professional trainer it is only because I do wish I had more time to learn more. Zig would be so much better in the hands of someone who was more comfortable and experienced dealing with his issues..

But he got stuck with me and we do the best we can.

If it's any consolation, I think even trainers handle some dogs better than others. One of my study dogs was bred to be a service dog, and has been in training for the last 6 months or so. I was talking to one of his trainers on the weekend and said I found him an inconsistent dog. The trainer said almost everyone finds him an inconsistent dog. But one of the trainers seems to speak his language and they get on very well and for that trainer he is consistent.

I totally agree - I watch our obedience instructor with Zig compared to the behaviourist and they both deal with him so differently.

Zig is a soft dog, he is very confident around other dogs, not so much people though. He loves all other dogs. He likes our obedience trainer and looks forward to her pat when we do the basic sit and stay tests each session. He used to avoid our behaviourist.

But being a bull breed, he needs really firm boundaries - I have been slack with this from day one, totally my own fault and now I am left dealing with the consequences of being soft on him all the time.

As a rescue, I felt sorry for him - I will never make this mistake again. I have learned where I have gone wrong with him and it isn't his fault, it is mine.

So firmer boundaries, like he no longer has access to certain areas of the house, he can't get on the bed unless I ask him to (he sleeps there with me of a night, so he is invited up each night - but no more just whenever he wants). His dinner goes down for 20 minutes and then it is removed if he doesn't eat it.

All of these things together seem to be making a difference to his reactions out with other dogs - he is nowhere near like he was even 6 months ago..

[hankdog]

Hugely off topic but if you watched Better Homes tonight the dog Doctor Harry was throwing a ball for is Chilli and the little foxie is also Vicki's. They're all in the Choosi pet insurance ad as well.

[chuckandsteve]

Just a question to all

My reactive buy is reactive due to fear issues no question about that. He stays with his trainer when we have to go away as the only other person I trust to look after him is my Dad and he has his own reactive dog so he can't stay there.

2 times ago he arked up at a statue of a rottie, the trainer had him and was quite forceful about making hi walk past it. Hubby and I were both a bit taken aback as we hadn't seen him behave this way before and she was quite heavy handed with him. I think she could tell this and told us she needed to have dominance over him and honestly I am bit of a light touch so I thought ok.

Last time we went, I walked him past the statue no worries but once he got up to her he freaked out kept trying to hide behind me and going between my legs trying to stay away from her. I have seen him suss on people before, a tradie at the house and one of my friends but nothing like this. She said all the smells would be putting him off, there are normally up to 10 dogs there as he stays with the group (I can't get him near any other dog so maybe he was just remembering he has to be around lots of dogs there)

Talked to hubby about it and he thought we should see what he does at the vets the next week. He was fine there though a little closed off but not unusual for him with new people, bit excited by other dog at the vet but stayed and didn't bark and charged between 2-3 dogs to get out the door away from them after his consult, though he did try to nip the vet when he got jabbed

So should I be concerned by his reaction at the trainers, he is always happy and hanging with the trainer when I pick him up and all the other dogs. Is he just scared because he knows the trainer is meaner than me (not hard) and that he has to be around lots of dogs while he is there?

He (or I) did have a training session with her between these 2 stays and he was fine with her then.

[Weasels]

So, the goal of your training is to decrease his fear, but when in the presence of this trainer his fear is increased?

I read a quote yesterday from Roy Coppinger, which I thought summed up how useful dominance is as a training tool:

The intent of dominance display is to exclude the subordinate from some activity, like breeding. The alpha wolf isn't trying to teach the subordinate anything.

Edited March 19, 2013 by TheLBD

[chuckandsteve]

I think her point of dominance was that she needed him to follow her in order for him to stay with the pack when there were 10 dogs there.

I guess i am more wondering if it could be the place and staying away from us for a few days or the trainer that is stressing him. When he goes there its not for training (though she does do some with him) its for boarding, and he has been exceptional in training sessions with her at parks etc and her dogs

[hankdog]

Oh my ballerina daughter would die for Justices turned out feet. He looks really proud if himself there.

Chuckandsteve from my experience Jake has become sensitized to going to training and he's never had any negative reinforcement except actually seeing dogs which is stressful for him. That being said I don't mind using mildly aversive training methods in principle but find them counter productive with Jake in particular since his level of arousal around dogs is so high you would be off the scale on aversive to make any impact coupled with being a bull breed that was bred to take wallops from large animals and go back for more you would be at best wasting your time and at worst fanning the flames. So that's a long winded way of saying I don't know but it's sounds like you're making progress if he can hang out with a pack of dogs.

[Panzer Attack]

I agree totally with Snook. I would be concerned if my dogs were afraid of anyone TBH, especially if they'd worked well with them in the past. Don't be scared to bring it up with your trainer - this is YOUR dog, and you need to make sure you're both comfortable.

Justice looks so little in that picture! Awww I loves him. You guys are an amazing team.

Things are going well with Scooter, he had a proper training session with me today and was responding really snappily! The consult with Cosmolo has really improved MY communication with both my dogs, and Scooter is much more willing to look to me for guidance and attention than he ever has! His aggression with Rudy has toned down, and I've even got my housemate (mostly) on board. Woohoo!

[Cosmolo]

With regards to dogs being worried/ timid/ fearful in the presence of the trainer. This can happen when aversive methods are used where the level of aversion is at a higher level than what the owner is able to deliver for whatever reason. It can also happen where the trainer preceeds a stressful situation which leads to the question- is the dog over threshold during training? In many respects it should be easier for a dog to stay under threshold in the presence of the trainer due to the influence of prior learning history, consistency, controlled situations etc.

For example when a dog meets with me once a week for 4 weeks they spend say 6 hours with me. With their owner, they spend 28 days x 12-24 hours. As a result the opportunities for inconsistency are greater (regardless of the handlers skills) AND the dogs only experience with me have been during those training sessions so if i have done my job well, they should not have had much opportunity to practice the 'bad' behaviours during my 6 hours of training time. With the owner, they have had months or years of practicing the bad behaviour hence why the dog over time starts to behave better when the trainer is present- it is context specific and the trainer is part of that context. This can be a challenge in itself as it can become harder to set up certain situations to help the owner to deal with them. I'd go as far as to say the dogs thresholds to reactivity are raised with the presence of the trainer, over time.

So i'd be examining why the dog is more worried in the presence of the trainer. It may not be the trainers fault- or it may be.

I am very happy to read your post too Panzer :)

[megan_]

I'd be concerned about a trainer that is effectively punishing fear. That certainly isn't going to change the emotional state of the dog. Even the trainers that I know that use prongs and ecollars have said you don't punish fear.

[corvus]

By definition you CAN'T punish fear. Punishment is an operant conditioning thing and from a strictly theoretical perspective it acts on behaviour. Fear is an emotion. It is far more likely to be influenced by classical conditioning. As a general rule of thumb, the more emotionally-driven the behaviour, the less effective operant conditioning is likely to be in changing it and the more effective classical conditioning will be. Bob Bailey has a great analogy. Pavlov represents classical conditioning and Skinner operant conditioning. One sits on one of your shoulders and the other sits on the other. When one grows, the other shrinks in proportion. If a dog is in a highly emotional state, Pavlov is big and Skinner is small. Your job as a trainer is to make Pavlov smaller and Skinner bigger, because while Pavlov is big operant conditioning isn't much use and it's hard to train a dog with classical conditioning alone. When Skinner is big, you have a lot more options, but he reminds people regularly that Pavlov is always on your shoulder. The implications of this reminder is that even when you have a nice, operant dog and are using operant conditioning, the dog is still making basic, emotional associations. For example, if the overall training experience is pleasant for the dog, they have a positive emotional response to the trainer and perhaps the training grounds, maybe the shoes the trainer wears, or a special bag the trainer will bring with them full of goodies... That kind of thing. So if you have a dog that has a negative emotional response to the trainer, we can assume some kind of negative association has been made. It may be the trainer themselves or it may be something indirectly associated with the trainer. Either way, if it were me I would probably pull out. Negative emotional responses are resistant to change because they help keep an animal safe. So whenever I'm not sure what the behaviour was triggered by I back right off to avoid making it worse before I can figure out what's going on.

Incidentally, what the trainer was doing sounds like flooding, which is something a lot of positive trainers have massive issues with because they think it is inhumane. Make no mistake, it certainly can be by my reckoning, but not always. The problem is the point is to deliberately put the dog over threshold, as in expose them to something they are uncomfortable with at an intensity that they really can't handle. Then you wait until they realise there is nothing they can do to make the scary thing go away, and hopefully they then realise that they are actually not dead and maybe the scary thing is not a threat after all. It works like that sometimes, but other times the dog just learns that they can't control scary stuff happening to them in certain circumstances. There's some evidence to suggest flooding can be surprisingly effective and humane if coupled with other things, but not very practical things.

[Weasels]

We should clone Bob Bailey.

Edited March 19, 2013 by TheLBD

[chuckandsteve]

Thanks, after reading through this i am thinking its the house/boarding he is reacting to rather than the trainer. He is overly attached to me, so maybe its the leaving me, maybe its that he knows he has to live with the pack of dogs there.

Could be right about the flooding, he is bad on lead with dogs when i get to her house she lets him off, then lets another dog out with him, then another, then another etc all good dogs none like him. I hadnt thought too much about it as i cant get him near another dog unless she is with me and handling the other dog, so i am always just happy to watch him play

Another thing i found interesting is at group training he stands out in front of me and barks if he feels threatened by another dog, when she takes him he hides behind her or between her legs.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Is it possible that he is stressed by having to deal with up to 10 dogs staying at the boarding house?

Whilst they may all be good dogs, if he has trouble reading signals it could be very stressful 24 hours a day for him to read them and try to fit in. Particularly if he is only there occasionally, and the pack is fluid i.e. there are perhaps 1 or 2 new dogs each time for him to negotiate.

Just my 2c.

[chuckandsteve]

Is it possible that he is stressed by having to deal with up to 10 dogs staying at the boarding house?

Whilst they may all be good dogs, if he has trouble reading signals it could be very stressful 24 hours a day for him to read them and try to fit in. Particularly if he is only there occasionally, and the pack is fluid i.e. there are perhaps 1 or 2 new dogs each time for him to negotiate.

Just my 2c.

Yeah thats what I am starting to think, he is having a ball when I pick him up but maybe the initial is throwing him, which is what I think the trainer meant by saying all the weird smells were unsettling to him. At a training session its only one maybe 2 dogs he works with so the pack might be a bit much.

He is a bit of an odd dog, I can pick how my other 2 will react to anything, this one still suprises me and I've had him a year.

Edited March 19, 2013 by chuckandsteve

[hankdog]

I think that's true with our "odd" dogs, their thought processes might be slightly different to regular dogs and this makes them react unpredictably. Whenever I read a book that says "do X and the dog will think Y and do Z" I just know that's not what's going to happen at all. I think that's why you have to have an overall strategy that you consistently apply no matter what reaction you get from the dog.

[Tassie]

@ Snook aaaaaw How angelic is Justice there. What a good boy he is - and what a good owner you are. You must be delighted with hsi progress.

[megan_]

He does have a very "I'm a good boy" look about him Snook.

C&S - I think S&T is onto something that 10 dogs all at once may have been overwhelming - even for dogs without issues.

Lucy is such a silly sausage. She can be scared of simple things (eg the shade thing that I put on the car window to keep her cool. She didn't want to get in the car when I stuck it up and was scared for a few weeks even after I took it down).

Last night we did a little training session. They work on the peanut, wobble board and balance discs but I wanted to do something different. I have a balance ball for me - the ones that you sit on - and a few days ago I shaped them to put their front paws on it and push it along in the kitchen. This is good for building core strength.

I got the ball out last night and put it in the garden where we were training. The plan was a bit of a warm up, some core strength (pushing the ball along) and some agility (SG's check check and zoom zoom).

When it was Lucy's turn to train she ran out the house very excited as per usual and jumped straight on the ball - all 4 legs. Of course it started rolling so she had to balance herself. She rolled, balancing all the way, for about 7m! All that time she wasn't at all scared, tail wagging having a ball. She looked like one of those cartoon circus animals. I eventually stopped the ball and she got off, absolutely no fear at all.