Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Wobbly]

I love him to bits and he can be so very good. But I am sitting here in tears today and feeling like a total failure..

I used to have days like that.... :hugs:

Every so often I still say to my husband "Remember what she was like when we first got her?" and we both kind of cringe and shudder at the memory. Dear lord the bad old days. Funny thing was, like Zig she was great at home (once we rid her of the notion that nipping and jumping for attention was good), but a nightmare in public when she got over excited (which was pretty much her permanent state of mind when she was outside the house).

I couldn't take Jarrah to group obedience, I did once, but it was such a disaster I didn't go again for years, we do go now that she's over that adolescent madness though.

FWIW, just based on my own experience I think you've got yourself a high drive dog, and you're suffering the combined effects of that and adolescence. Not that I'm an expert or anything, I'm completely not, so I may be way off base with that, but your experience does sound so familiar to me.

I wish I could offer some really useful suggestions that'd fix it, but I'm no expert dog trainer, I just muddled through as best as I could, and it wasn't easy. I will tell you what I did, it may not be the best way, and for sure other people more knowledgeable than me could probably give you better ideas, but here's how I kept my sanity intact(ish).

I got onto google maps and found a place nearby me, remote enough that I wouldn't run into other dogs or people. I checked via the map version of google first, then further with the satellite images before I went out there myself. I had a couple of false starts here, tried a few State Forests (dogs allowed in NSW) which all ended being unsuitable for one reason or another, but finally found a good spot at an old disused quarry which is crown land. I'm assuming Quangers is Queanbeyan? Kowen Pine forest looks like it might be worth a visit to see? it even has a few dams and a river from a quick look?

So then I had a place to let her burn off energy, off leash so she could really RUN without stressing myself too much about her abominably over friendly, over excited, hyper manic, nuttiness around dogs or people. Because our spot has dams we played swim fetch, and the swimming really tired her out and made her much more tractable. One of the things Steve K9pro said when we were there the other day, was that perhaps her aggression to dogs (it was never bad, and only occurred 15 or so minutes into a play session with the other dog when she got REALLY excited, no growl, no hackles, just standing a little taller and tail up a litle higher a few seconds before she pinned the other dog) was perhaps frustrated prey drive. He didn't say that with certainty, because he never saw her aggression so he couldn't say for sure, but I guess it was a speculation he felt worth mentioning. I agree completely, 100%, in hindsight, I do think frustrated prey drive was behind a lot of her grievous behaviours.

Not that learning tug and fetch or getting her running for 2 hours a day was quick fix, it wasn't. I've learned that, the more a dog does something fun, the more their enjoyment of that behaviour reinforces it, so they want to do that even more, a feedback loop. The high value she had for other dogs and hence her over excitement at seeing them was incredibly reinforced by the time I got her. But when we started avoiding other dogs completely, it stopped reinforcing how great they were, and she enjoyed the fetch so much, that became reinforced, the more we played fetch and tug, the more she loved it, which at least gave me something to get her focus, to get an emergency recall. The frisbee became as fun as other dogs, she became as fixated on the firsbee and playing with me as she was with playing with other dogs. So when her excitement was unmanageable, at least I could redirect it very easily into something I controlled. I did a pretty poor job of it really (no "out") but even the bad job I did helped me in managing her enormously.

I remember at the time being told that the excessively high value she had for playing with other dogs could only be stopped with strong corrections. I'm not sure if that's true now, but I believed it at the time. I don't have the stomach for strong corrections, so the only other alternative I knew of at the time was to avoid other dogs altogether, which I did, for years.

So every day I would take this crazy dog for a 2 hour run at the quarry and she swam her little heart out (whilst I buried my head in hands and wondered what am I going to do with this nut case of an animal). The net result being that at least I stopped allowing her to get even more reinforced on the idea that other dogs were THE best, most exciting thing in the whole wide world, and started really reinforcing the idea that the frisbee was THE best, most exciting thing in the entire world. I also had to play fetch every evening for a half hour, when she got her second wind. I used balls for that, because the house is less exciting and I didn't want to dilute the power of the frisbee by using it in a boring context like home.

Remember the more you allow him to play with other dogs, the more reinforced he'll get abut that, and the more he'll want to. He doesn't sound fear reactive to me, he sounds like he reacts to other dogs the way he does because he thinks it's the best fun in the whole world to play with them, the best outlet he knows of to satisfy all his adolescent excess energy expenditure needs. We humans just can't compete with another dog for chasies and wrestling and speed and excitement. It's a different thing to the nervous and fear reactive dogs, and for our dogs, with their huge value for other dogs, allowing them to play with other dogs is counter productive, it just makes them even more excited about other dogs, not at all what we want.

So, 5 years later, Jarrah still has an excessively high value for other dogs, and I do still run the risk of having my arm torn off when she sees another dog running, chasing a ball, playing or doing anything fast moving and exciting looking - she's never forgotten how much fun she had playing with other dogs and how exciting that was. But if I stick a frisbee in her mouth, that is more fun than other dogs, so then those running dogs cease to exist to her anymore, and she acts like a normal dog, trotting along happily on a loose leash with a frisbee in her gob, ignoring the other dogs whizzing past us. It's not perfect, but a huge win given where we started. When she meets other dogs in calm contexts, (when they aren't running), she has actually developed some really nice greeting manners (no idea how that happened tbh, but I'm relieved it did), but only in a calm context.

I spent about 4 years only exercising her at the quarry, I probably could have started going down to the dog beach (on leash ofc around other dogs, always and forever now) a lot earlier than 4 years, but well, we got into a routine. We do go to the dog beach now (yay).

The other thing I should have done that I think would have helped a lot is tons of training, learning new tricks etc - brain work tires her out more than anything, I did do some, but it probably would have made it a lot easier for me if I did more, I just didn't know that at the time.

In the end, we got through it, she's 6ish now, and I am happy to say she actually makes me proud in public a lot these days (and sometimes she still makes me cringe too - when there's other dogs chasing stuff and she completely forgets I'm there on the end of leash because she wants to play with them so much XD But a frisbee in her mouth makes her forget the other dogs and gets her trotting happily alongside me on a loose leash again).

None of this is any expert testimony, I am the furthest thing from a dog expert you could ever find, but it really helped me get through Jarrah's adolescence. So they're just ideas for you to consider and maybe try if you think they might have some promise. The only thing I really regret now (apart from the fact she still has a massive value for other dogs, but she had that before I got her, so it's not something I had any say over the development of) is that I never taught her an "out", and that cat thing I've mentioned (that I have been so completely in denial of because, out of sight out of mind is a talent of mine).

And on that cat thing, Snook, my ideal would be to have access to a cat that is completely unperturbed by noisy dogs, who I could have in a cage to put at threshold distance, and gradually move closer, lots of treats for Jarrah for calm behaviour. To teach her that a cats presence means good things (and ofc something for the cat in the cage to make it happy and calm too). I've a notion that it would work, if I could do it for a half hour or so every day for however long it took, but ofc I don't have access to a cat like that, so I am going to go to a good trainer to see what alternatives he can come up with. I don't want her to be buddy-buddy with cats, that's unrealistic, but I want to dispell her belief that they are evil incarnate so she isn't so reactive to them. I think inadvertantly that's what Ive been doing anyway with the frisbee, because she has improved enormously over the years with her reactions to cats and all I've really been doing about it apart from avoiding feline haunts is diverting her attention to the frisbee when we do see cats. The problem with using the frisbee is that it's an excitable good thing, I'd rather use food as it's a calm good thing, and calm is what I want. But where we stand now, she's too over stimulated to take food in the presence of cat, I'd need to be able to control threshhold distances for her to be able to take food.

Staffyluv, I so feel for you, (and hope your arm gets better ASAP) but I've a notion that if Zig is like Jarrah was - very high drive and going through adolescence is exarcerbating the issue, then things will end up good so long as you just do the very best you can to manage him now, so you get him through the adolescent madness safely, provide him with the best training background you can (and keep as much of your sanity intact as you can), and he'll be good when adolescence wears off. OFC I might be completely wrong about Zig being like Jarrah, so if Cosmolo, or someone else who is really good at dog psychology says I'm way wrong, ignore my bleatings. XD

[Wobbly]

she has actually developed some really nice greeting manners (no idea how that happened tbh, but I'm relieved it did)

Actually, on thinking about it, I do know what enabled her to develop those nice manners, and it's relevant so I will mention it.

When we went and saw Steve K9pro (the time we went all those years ago when she was abominable, not this time round) and I told him of her madness around other dogs, he told us to get her to sit or down when around other dogs before she met them, and if she couldn't/wouldn't do that then take her home, same with every time she got really over excited in an inappropriate context, take her home. She learned pretty quickly that displaying inappropriate excitement signalled the end of the walk, and she learned being calm (and initially sitting) around other dogs was the only way she was ever going to get to meet them.

This is my speculation on what's going on in her fuzzy dog brain: There's responses she can control and responses she can't seem to help herself with. It's easy for her to control her response to calm dogs and do what she needs to do to get me to let her meet them ie - be calm herself, and from there it was a pretty natural evolution for her to greet calm dogs in a quiet calm mannerly fashion, I didn't teach her the manners, the calm enabled her to get them herself. When another dog is running really fast though, even though she knows she only gets to meet that dog if she's calm, she can't really help herself, it's just a hardwired instinct for some dogs to chase fast moving stuff, an involuntary response (I might be very wrong on that, as I mentioned it's a speculation, but I think it's correct from my observations). So I was successful there with her response to calm dogs, but not with really fast moving ball chasing, frenzied playing dogs, that doggy instinct to chase is a compulsion she finds too hard to ignore. When she has the frisbee in her mouth I think (I might be very wrong, again just a speculation of mine) that in her head she already has the prey object, so the instinct to chase is tempered enough that she doesn't need to act on it.

Steve gave much better advice than I am able to convey here, but unfortunately at the time my limited understanding made it difficult for me to fully process all the info he gave us properly, I think I only managed to integrate parts of what he told us into my mind in a very rudimentary fashion. I understood enough that it vastly increased our quality of life though. I got the actions right, but I didn't neccessarily really understand the whys and wherefores, so I really hope I'm not playing Chinese whispers and passing on anything erroneous.

Another thing that helped (this one was inadvertent on my part, just a lucky fluke I did it right, I was only trying to manage the behaviour there and then, I didn't understand the concept of operant conditioning then, happy coincidence I hit on a good idea). A friend of ours got a crazy adolescent cattle dog and he used to visit our house with him. We have in our house "The Chair That Jarrah Is Not Allowed On" (that's capitalised on purpose, she adores this chair, I block it with stuff so she can't ever sit on it). To her it's the most amazing chair in the whole wide world, she loves it. So when our friend came round with his adolescent crazy dog, I let Jarrah on The Chair That Jarrah Is Not Allowed On. She was so delighted to be on it that even when the other dog was barking at her to get her attention, she wasn't budging off that chair for anything, not even for a dog who was dying to play with her, and expressing that in a very voluble, impossible to ignore way.... And she ignored it! It worked so nicely that whenever a dog came round I let her on that chair, and gave her loads of treats and she just sat in that chair, so stoked to be in it the other dog may as well have never existed. Remaining on the chair neccessarily meant she had to sit, calm and still (and in the house the other dog couldn't run round, meaning she could control her responses easily enough). So that was another very strong reinforcer for her that all the best things in the world only happen if you can be calm around other dogs, that conditioning carried into the world at large and supplemented and reinforced all the stuff Steve told us very well.

More ramblings, sorry I'm excessively verbose at 4 am, hopefully there's helpful info there for you & Zig Staffyluv. It's great you can see Cosmolo, that will give you the tools you need. The real turning point for me, in the midst of adolescence was seeing Steve. There is a vast difference between we pet owners, who interact closely with just a few dogs in our lives, and professional behaviourists who put in a lifetime, countless hours of studying and interacting closely with a huge variety of different dogs.

[Staffyluv]

Snook thanks for the offer to borrow one of Justice's thunder shirts - just wondering if it would fit Zig?

Zig is 26kg this morning (but he fluctuates, depending on how much running he does between 26-27kg, so not a lot).

I would really appreciate it if you think one would fit him.

Wobbly, Zig sounds a lot like your girl. Thanks for the tips - I will try anything if I think it will work.

This morning we went down to the park at 5.45am. There was no one there but he was still 'on guard'.

We spent 45 minutes at the park.

So I tried this:

On lead, I was running backwards and calling him and when he got to me and sat I threw his ball.. I was calling come, come, to me and he was really excited to do it and get his ball.

We did this in between practicing walking on loose leash - every time he got in front I did the come, come, to me and he came and I threw his ball.

The park started to get busier (still not a lot of distraction), so we moved down near the pond and I made him wait to go in.

Then we went back to just me running backwards and calling him and giving him the ball. Here is where I started to substitute the ball for treats. So I would say ready and then he would sit, look at me and I would throw him a treat to catch instead of the ball.

At first he spat them out but after a few goes if he at the treat, I threw his ball and he finally seemed to get that a treat is a good thing..

At the end this morning we finished with another pond dunk and look at me all the way back to the car with ball catching and treat catching.

I am solely working on getting him to focus on me and not pull on lead.. I am not working on his sits and stays (he just did them automatically because that is what we do at home)..

All the running and jumping he is now sound asleep under my desk..

This was an incredibly good morning for us. The park was quite busy by the time we left and I didn't want to leave on a bad note, so as soon as he was seeing other dogs and losing focus I knew it was time to go.

[Staffyluv]

I have a question about physical training compared to mental training.

Do you think that mental training wears them out more than physical training?

I have noticed with Zig, that if we do lots of mental stuff - where he has to think and react, that he becomes very tired for the rest of the day.

Where as a good couple of hour run somewhere, he will come home and dunk in his pool and then sleep for a couple of hours but then he is back up and into it again.

Yesterday we did 45 minutes at the park of just walking on loose lead and focusing on me instead of everything else around him and he slept nearly all day.

This morning, I hit the snooze button at 5am but it turns out it was the off button, so we both slept in. I got up at 7am and I went back in and he was still asleep at 9am.

Could yesterday have really worn him out so much?

He got up and at half a frozen turkey neck and now he is back to sleep again

[Weasels]

Another thing that helped (this one was inadvertent on my part, just a lucky fluke I did it right, I was only trying to manage the behaviour there and then, I didn't understand the concept of operant conditioning then, happy coincidence I hit on a good idea). A friend of ours got a crazy adolescent cattle dog and he used to visit our house with him. We have in our house "The Chair That Jarrah Is Not Allowed On" (that's capitalised on purpose, she adores this chair, I block it with stuff so she can't ever sit on it). To her it's the most amazing chair in the whole wide world, she loves it. So when our friend came round with his adolescent crazy dog, I let Jarrah on The Chair That Jarrah Is Not Allowed On. She was so delighted to be on it that even when the other dog was barking at her to get her attention, she wasn't budging off that chair for anything, not even for a dog who was dying to play with her, and expressing that in a very voluble, impossible to ignore way.... And she ignored it! It worked so nicely that whenever a dog came round I let her on that chair, and gave her loads of treats and she just sat in that chair, so stoked to be in it the other dog may as well have never existed. Remaining on the chair neccessarily meant she had to sit, calm and still (and in the house the other dog couldn't run round, meaning she could control her responses easily enough). So that was another very strong reinforcer for her that all the best things in the world only happen if you can be calm around other dogs, that conditioning carried into the world at large and supplemented and reinforced all the stuff Steve told us very well.

That is so cute! I can just imagine Jarrah all smug on her special chair :D The fact it was actually teaching her valuable stuff is a massive bonus :laugh:

Staffyluv absolutely mental work is tiring, I would say more so than exercise. As my first trainer said to me, exercise without brain work will just transform a bored dog into a fit, bored dog. I shudder to think how much time I'd have to spend running to tire out the kelpies physically

[Staffyluv]

I thought as much - I just can't believe how exhausted he seemed to be yesterday after our morning at the park..

[hankdog]

They get mentally fitter as well. When I started Jake was up for about a 2 minute clicker tricks session, now he can go longer than the treats last. Todays session I put out a big box , a paper serviette, a soft toy and a counter bell. Clicked for touching serviette, tipping box, shaking toy till it squeaked and ringing bell but since he doesn't like the toy he got 3 treats for that, one for bell ringing and 2 for tipping the box since that's new and hard work to get it right and funny to watch him do so bonus for me. I spread everything out so he has to make choices and walk around and back to me for his treat. He worked it out and finally chose box tipping as his primary payoff , maybe because he got a laugh for it as well. He kept playing till all his dinner and a bit extra was done and was trying to have a few bonus goes of targeting stuff as I packed away. It's also definitely helped him learn the link between action and reward.

Edited February 8, 2013 by hankdog

[Wobbly]

There's really just no accounting for the things they find completely awesome sometimes. :laugh:

The fact she's not allowed on that chair is a big part of why it's so awesome. The forbidden is so much sweeter apparently. XD

I think I might follow your advice Snook & Corvus and look into a thundershirt for Jarrah too, I am really interested in how it might affect her responses to things that arouse her, both serious distress (cats) and serious "omg, must chase!" excitement (zoomying dogs). I seem to remember that something similar, a pressure jacket of some kind, is supposed to help autistic human kids deal with over stimulation too.

Yeah agree with the mental stimulation being more effective for tiring them out, I still do find though that I often need to let Jarrah let off some steam by running around before she's able to concentrate on thinking though. Sort of like we might give ourselves a bit of a shake and stretch before we sit down to think.

Haha LBD I don't even think an entire olympic marathon team could manage to tire out some of the kelpies I've met. XD

For those of you with shell pools at home, I have a question. I have thought about getting one, Jarrah would love it, but how are you stopping the dogs running around your house wet and wiping their muddy paws on your floors after they've been paddling? I don't think I want to lock her out because she see our yard as a bit of a priviliege to earn, it's where we play and I find letting her out there useful as a bit of a small reward sometimes too, so I don't really want to be locking her out there (it's the way it is in her mind because she's only allowed in the yard when I'm home, I don't trust even a 6 ft fence if she decided she really wanted to get out). Do you towel dry before they come back in, or is your house's floor plan just naturally suitable?

Great to hear Jake is doing so well, and Justice too - I love that massive grin they get on their heads when they're really enjoying a good zoomy. XD

[hankdog]

Well I could care about the muddy paw prints.... meh more character for the house.

[megan_]

I had a shell pool but water is apparently poison and they wouldn't go anywhere near it. I wish they loved to swim it would make summer much easier on them

[corvus]

Erik can clicker train for 40 minutes quite happily. He will get little breaks while I work with Kivi, but in those breaks he's doing down-stays, so technically he's still working. Today at the beach I ran him through all the tricks we are currently working on. It took maybe 15-20 minutes, and he was begging for more when I ran out of things to practice. I have to dream up some new things to teach him because he's so hungry for new skills. Clicker training is his most favourite thing. It does wear him out faster than physical exercise, but he needs both. And clearly he has plenty of stamina for training. A long clicker session plus some play and running at the park over an hour or so and he will quite happily come back home and start making a nuisance of himself looking for more to do.

WRT other dogs, I prefer to be the gatekeeper than a competitor. My dogs are both pretty social and like to greet, but they've been taught that if they are interacting with me, it pays to wait until I tell them to go for it, and if I call them away they usually come. It took a fair bit of work, but it sure makes life easier.

[Staffyluv]

Wow, just WOW!..

Why did I not take him to formal obedience classes before?

If today was any indication of what it is going to be like with him, I wish I had done it ages ago.

When we arrived there were a few dogs having a bit of play time in a sectioned off area.

We went to watch and were invited in and he had about 5 minutes or so of play.

Then we were called for our group and off we went to stand in a circle around the instructor.

She asked a few questions about each dog and then showed us how and then asked us to walk out dogs at heel around in a circle a few times to get an idea of how each of us are handling our dogs.

She suggested that I walk on the outside of the group as Zig and I walk much faster than the littler dogs (there were 3 of us with bigger dogs on the outside).

He heeled all the way around after the first lap being a bit iffy because I was trying to walk him slower (she said we will work on getting the bigger dogs to go slower later on).

He sat on command, he heeled on command, he dropped on command.

He worked wholly for his tennis ball..

I was so impressed by him this morning in a group of 3 bigger dogs and 5 smaller dogs.

All dogs are happy and friendly and for once, he wasn't the one pulling to get to all the other dogs.

He barked a couple of times while waiting and the instructor said if I wanted to I could do some tricks or commands with him while she was talking instead of just having him sit there - which we did.

The second time he barked, I walked him out of the circle and waited a few seconds before coming back and he didn't bark again.

I have to say, I am stunned at his reaction today - and I hope that it continues.

Mostly, it was a very positive experience.

Instead of having him so far out of a group that I couldn't hear what was going on and he was always pulling to get to the other dogs - we were in the middle of the group, he was 1 metre away from a dog each side and yes, he looked at them but he was also focused on me when I asked him to.

[BC Crazy]

Well done staffyluv !! Bet you are wrapped & very rightly so. With progress like that it keeps me hopeful with my Stella. Maybe one day we to can attend group classes without all hell breaking loose. Great work & congrats to you both :)

[Staffyluv]

Thanks BC - I am totally amazed.

I didn't do obedience classes because so many (including myself) thought that putting him into such a distracting environment would not be the best thing.

But honestly, I just got to the point where I thought I had tried just about every type of leash, collar, harness and training that I could think of (including 2 sessions in a behaviourists class).

The only thing left was proper obedience classes.

In the other class we spent so much time away from the group - but this time we were right there in the middle of it all and he was in his element.

I had explained my issues to the instructor before hand and she said lets just see how he goes.

I am truly amazed - I am also hoping it isn't a one off and next week is just as good and we can progress each week.

[Staffyluv]

That's fantastic Staffyluv! It sounds like the class is a good fit for you both and your trainer knows what she's doing. Don't be surprised if Ziggy fluctuates a bit from week to week but you're off to a great start!

Thanks Snook - it was just such a pleasure to work with him today.

I am sure there will still be ups and downs but I know now that he/we can do it.

It will take time but today I saw a glimpse of the dog I knew he could be. I mean, I have always seen it - I just saw a lot more of it than I ever expected to at his first class.

To be honest, I really expected the distraction to be too much and we would have to leave (but I had to try).. I am so glad I did.

[BC Crazy]

So very true Snook :) Sometimes you feel the harder things get with your reactive pooch, the more you try, the worse their behaviour gets. It's like you take one step forward, then 2 back. You put everything you have into their progress. I & I'm sure all of us have cried many a tear in sheer despaIr when you are at your wits & exhausted what you feel is every a possible,available avenue. Then you read a positive post on this great thread & you think there may be light at the end of your tunnel :)

Edited February 10, 2013 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

Hi everyone.

Was after some advice regarding Stella, again...

Long story sorry but were on a 3 week caravaning trip when on day 4 OH had accident in our new boat & cut his Archillies tendon so now he is unable to walk for unaided for 3 months so we are here indefinately.

First week Stella wad great. Didn't bark or get anxious at all really. But by 2nd week started getting a bit territorial around our van etc when other dogs approach. Now she has really escalated with barking aggressively, lungeing etc at pretty much anything that moves in our street. We have both dogs enclosed in our annexe & one of us is with them at all times. I have tried her thunder shirt which does help. Also tried to distract her but without success as she is so quick to escalate from 0 to 100. Was thinking if trying a water spray bottle ?? But any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I am finding her anxiety very upsetting atm & I really need this behaviour to stop as she is getting far too aggressive & upset. We also don't want any complainents either I suprised we haven't already.... Sorry for the ramble guys but am at my wits with my girl. She is so good most of the time & at night in the van she is perfect. Not one sound. Her reactiveness is just soooo frustrating.

And anything seems to trigger her. From other dogs to mowers, & anything in between

Edited February 12, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Panzer Attack]

(Panzer here)

Oh BC I don't have any advice, but want to send you virtual hugs Scootie is getting worse again too, I feel your pain. Poor you, poor OH, poor Sonny and poor Stella. It sounds like she's incredibly sensitive and picks up on emotional changes (like Scootie does) - certainly makes life challenging x

[BC Crazy]

(Panzer here)

Oh BC I don't have any advice, but want to send you virtual hugs Scootie is getting worse again too, I feel your pain. Poor you, poor OH, poor Sonny and poor Stella. It sounds like she's incredibly sensitive and picks up on emotional changes (like Scootie does) - certainly makes life challenging x

Thanks panzer. Isn't just so distressing for all concerned I have tried everything I can think of with her & no improvement as yet. She is getting lots of daily exercise etc. Maybe she needs more mental work, I just dont know what to do

[Weasels]

(Panzer here)

Oh BC I don't have any advice, but want to send you virtual hugs Scootie is getting worse again too, I feel your pain. Poor you, poor OH, poor Sonny and poor Stella. It sounds like she's incredibly sensitive and picks up on emotional changes (like Scootie does) - certainly makes life challenging x

Thanks panzer. Isn't just so distressing for all concerned I have tried everything I can think of with her & no improvement as yet. She is getting lots of daily exercise etc. Maybe she needs more mental work, I just dont know what to do

BC sorry I haven't followed your posts closely so apologies if you've done this, but have you tried a desensitisation & counter-conditioning protocol with her? With Weez we started with the thing he was least crazy over (bikes), then we did scooters and after just those 2 things he has generalised to so much and the only thing he reacts to now is a single gsd who stands outside our house twice a day (). It has changed our walks completely tho. If you are interested I can PM you the video of our training, it does take 2 people to do the training.

If she is fearful I would really recommend against the water bottle, it will almost certainly increase her anxiety (either that or she won't notice)