Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Cosmolo]

Staffyluv, can i ask why only 1/3? You are likely to get a quicker, better response by making him work for every scrap of food he receives- nothing for free.

[Staffyluv]

Staffyluv, can i ask why only 1/3? You are likely to get a quicker, better response by making him work for every scrap of food he receives- nothing for free.

I am using the time I have. Even taking time out to do 4 ten to fifteen minute sessions is hard at the moment and that is about all I get out of him before the distraction sets in again.. My actual workload is pretty high at the moment - leashing him, walking down to the park and training all takes at least 20 minutes or so (breaking my work day up like that isn't easy with my current workload).

I wish I had more time, someone else to out but I don't.

As I mentioned above, I have finally found some treat type foods he will eat - honestly, it is all crap food and I hate giving it to him. After yesterday with trying all those things out on him, he is scratching like crazy today.

Apart from that he only eats RMBs - I still make him do some work at home for his meal. He has to sit and wait and look at me for it and I am handing it to him (not putting it in his bowl, so the food comes from me).

[Cosmolo]

Fair enough Staffyluv- just remember that much of the conditioning or the work for food work can be done at home- even when sitting on the couch or behind the computer. It's great that you have found some treats that he likes- i tend to think he would become less fussy with what he will accept the more his free food is restricted so that you could then give him 'better' or more skin friendly treats. Not sure if you have mentioned it before- have you tried the Happy Paws treats? I found them quite good for one of my sensitive dogs.

[Staffyluv]

Fair enough Staffyluv- just remember that much of the conditioning or the work for food work can be done at home- even when sitting on the couch or behind the computer. It's great that you have found some treats that he likes- i tend to think he would become less fussy with what he will accept the more his free food is restricted so that you could then give him 'better' or more skin friendly treats. Not sure if you have mentioned it before- have you tried the Happy Paws treats? I found them quite good for one of my sensitive dogs.

Yep he works well for them at home...

He will even work without treats at home, just for a pat or a tummy scratch or even a good boy..

Where can I get happy paws treats? I haven't heard of them. I am willing to bake a leg of lamb at this stage.

I am hoping that a trainer at dog training can help us because I really am so incredibly frustrated with him. It's like he is two totally different dogs.. Is there an ADHD for dogs?? :laugh:

[hankdog]

I reckon there is, and an oppositional defiance and autistic and also BAS (being a $@it)! Some days Jakes got all of them. Somedays I feel like doing other things with a thunking great leg of lamb. One day you'll look back and be so proud if yourself and how well you've trained Zig, hang in there.

[Wobbly]

Haha Staffyluv, I keep reading your posts and it sends my mind back to Jarrah's adolescence. A few differences, but so many similarities. I think you're doing a better job of managing than I did. XD

Did you ever try using food a bit like a toy? Like running around with it, throwing it and generally making a food reward associated with really exciting? Just a thought, perhaps worth a try.

I've been thinking that you're following the exact same course I was, which worked out well for us - I tried everything that was suggested that sounded remotely hopeful, and kept persisting (even though I despaired at times). In the end I think the main factors that finally made a civilised dog out of Jarrah were the combination of my continued persistence in working with her, combined with the natural calming effect of leaving adolescence behind and becoming an adult dog.

I think the turning point for us was when Jarrah hit about three years old, and I found myself noticing more and more often that she was becoming a "good" dog. I think for some of the amstaffs, adolescence is really difficult, the arousal threshold is so incredibly low, and they get so excited that it seems like they've literally lost their mind sometimes (like 50 times a day). If you didn't get the dog as a pup and missed that window of opportunity to introduce them to potentially exciting stimuli in a controlled, calm, unexciting way, it's an uphill battle for sure.

I agree with Hankdog, just hang in there and keep persisting with anything that seems to be working. In a years time, when his adolescence wears off and the ADD subsides you'll see the pay-off, he'll settle and become the dog you want him to be.

In Jarrah world, I do have a serious reactivity problem that I need to broach. Cats. I have ignored it because we so rarely come across them, but I need to deal with it. I know how it happened and it's something I regret bitterly. When Jarrah was younger I left her at a particular kennel (you can PM me for the name if you like) when I went to India for a friend's wedding. They asked if there was any training I'd like, I couldn't really think of anything - it's always seemed to me that dog training is more about owner education than anything else and so educating the dog in the absence of the owner is a bit pointless. But I wanted her to get the extra human contact and stimulation of training so I said can you make her OK with cats. At this point she wasn't bad with cats, she just wanted to chase them like any normal dog would. In my mind, making her OK with cats would be exposing her to really boring non moving cats, until cats (well maybe only still ones) become a normal part of the landscape, boring. So thats what I thought they would do, since they had a nice cat who completely ignored the dogs and would have been perfect for the job. I imagined they'd pop the cat in a crate and gradually move her closer to Jarrah's run, lots of treats for ignoring the cat etc.

That's evidently not what they did. I don't know exactly what they did do, but they turned her into a slavering, raging, red zone maniac whenever she sees a cat (and initially when she thought she saw something that maybe might have been a phantom cat. She's not seeing phantom cats anymore, so she has improved a lot in the intervening years since this happened at least).

In the ordinary course of things, were her response to cats only prey driven, the advice we got from Steve K9pro the other day would have quite naturally made cats not an issue. But this isn't the ordinary course of things and there's a lot more to her reaction to cats than

prey drive. I'm lucky that I can deflect her interest from cats with a frisbee, which is really my only saving grace with this issue right now.

I manage the issue well enough that provided I'm on my guard I don't have any problems, but seeing the progress in this thread is inspiring (especially Justice's progress) and I'm wondering if perhaps rehabilitation is possible.

There's only really a problem perhaps once or twice a year when a cat will streak out into view when I'm not ready for it, but it's a BIG issue when that happens, if I'm not fast about transfering her arousal into a positive frisbee/tug very quickly, she'll get worked up into a fear/rage/fight frenzy in a matter of seconds. Poor girl

I think my plan of action for this is to first get an "out" (we're making good progress here as a result of an appointment with Steve K9pro). Once I have that, it'll be a really good tool to use to help her I think. From there I will see a trainer called Glenn Cook, who I think is very good (I want to see different trainers to understand different training methodolgies and philosophies - many ways to skin a cat). I am not sure what he'll say about the prognosis, but for the moment I am hopeful we might be able to get a good outcome on this.

It's a tough decision to press the "post" button here. I don't like to talk about this issue because of my guilt - I caused it - I actually paid someone to completely trash my dog's naturally good temperament (mercifully only in regards to cats). They obviously scared her and maybe they hurt her. I don't think my ignorance of their methods is any excuse, I should have done more research on them before I left her there. Unforgivable. But done is done, I made a gigantic error in judgenent and it's had awful consequences. Now all I can do is look forward, and do what I can to help her out of this mess I put her in.

[megan_]

Wobbly - we have all made mistakes that our dogs have suffered for. I have beat myself up many times about this but I now accept that we all make mistakes and little bitch doesn't have a line of perfect dog owners waiting for her who would have done everything perfectly. We have each other and we'll muddle our way through :). As long as the community and my dog is safe I'm willing to forgive myself now.

Staffyluv - the Happy Paws Treats are from a DOLer - happypawstreats.com.au. I don't want to sound like a nag re: working for food . I only train my dogs for a few minutes a day (nothing like 5 mins of heeling or anything - I wouldn't even do that much heeling with a top performance dog) and they get all their food this way. Do a good set of weaves = a few mouthfuls of kangaroo etc. They get their breakfast via rewards for good walk behaviour and food puzzles and then dinner through very fun, fast training. They very rarely get treats, it is all just normal food. For the walks I use food as a passive (ie calming) reward but for training I use it as Wobbly suggests - I make it very active and fun.

Had a strange incident with Lucy on the weekend. She normally loves her walks. Runs to me, hops on the couch and sits nicely for the leash to go on. On Saturday she ran to her bed and didn't want to come on the walk. I thought she may be a bit ill so I took Fergs on a very short walk and let her be. When I got home she hooned around happy as Larry. The time came for our agility lesson and she didn't want the leash on OR to go in the car (she turned her back and tried to go back into the garden). She was actually panting like she did many years ago when in the car. I was very concerned at this regression. She was great at agility. Then home again (a bit more relaxed as she was tired).

Off to the groomers and the same thing! I went home and wrecked my brains re: what had changed to make her so scared. I couldn't think of anything or any negative leash or car experiences. Then it hit me - 2 weeks ago I bought those suction back window shade things to keep them cooler. I removed them before I picked them up from the groomers and - what do you know - she was back to her happy self! Loved this morning's walk and car trip!

Silly sausage :) .

On the good side, she had a great agility lesson and showed me how she can make GOOD decisions when threatened. During the lesson the instructor's BC came up behind a chain-link fence. Lucy was running towards a tunnel right by this dog (separated by a fence). The BC suddenly started barking at her and before I could even call her she whipped around and ran straight back to me! Went straight into a "I'm a good girl" sit and earned a huge amount of treats for her effort.

Two years ago if she was off leash and she saw a dog through a chain-link fence it would have been on. What's more once Ace had gone away she continued to do agility and wasn't at all fussed.

[Staffyluv]

Wobbly I think you are onto something with the adolescence thing..

I do remember (it has been a lot of years), having some issues with Ollie when he was around 2-3 years old..

We had another set back this morning and I think I am going to stop walking him altogether - so the only exercise he will get is in our yard, I just can't deal with the pulling etc anymore.

He has really injured my elbow and I am about to go and go to the doctors as I can't move it.

I don't want to keep him cooped up at home, I think he will go nuts and dig more (The only times he doesn't dig is when he gets plenty of exercise). But at this point, the only time he behaves is at home.

I will still go to obedience on Sunday and hopefully I can convince one trainer to come to our place so they can see the difference in the dog - he is like 2 completely different dogs.

One is calm and happy to work and train (at home) and the one out is a nightmare some days.

Don't get me wrong, we can have days out walking and he is good - no real pulling, if I say leave it when we see another dog - he does, if they other owners want to say hi, he can even wait for a dog to come to him 'some days'. But these days are getting rarer and rarer.

Thanks for the link to the happy treats - I will order some and see how we go, cause nothing else works.

I had devon this morning and at home for 5 minutes he was great, taking it with heeling, waiting etc.

I put his collar and lead on, he got in the car gently, he waited until I called him out of the car and then he started.

I stopped about 2 feet from the car and waited with treat in my hand in front of him and he sat in front of me and he wouldn't look at me (it is like I am not there some days).. There wasn't anyone else around us, there was only the park in front of us - maybe I need to take him to a different place (or that might be worse, new smells, sights etc).

[Cosmolo]

I hope the trainer has some answers. If they don't i'd be seriously thinking about going to see someone who can help you so that you don't have to continue on such a downard spiral.

What are you currently walking him on? Flat collar/ halti etc?

[Staffyluv]

I hope the trainer has some answers. If they don't i'd be seriously thinking about going to see someone who can help you so that you don't have to continue on such a downard spiral.

What are you currently walking him on? Flat collar/ halti etc?

We have tried a halti but he scratched his face so badly that it bled).

I have a lupi harness a sporn harness as well and they both work for a limited time. Admittedly he doesn't pull as much in these but there is also less control of him because he can spin around a lot easier.

At the moment I am using a martingale and it has been the most successful in getting him to stop.

I hope so to Cos.

We have seen a behaviourist who suggested we do her classes. We have done 2 lots but he is so focused on the other dogs that we end up 50+ metres away from the class, I can't hear anything and I end up working on my own, just copying what they were doing in the class.

I don't want to keep spending $175 for a few classes that don't help us.

I am happy to pay for one on one tuition because I really don't think the classes help either but I am at the end of what I know as a pet owner, even with the great advice I have got from here.

I am not going to be able to do a whole lot with him - I have torn tendons in my elbow. I have had cortisone this morning for it and am on anti-inflam and pain meds now..

I love him to bits and he can be so very good. But I am sitting here in tears today and feeling like a total failure..

[Cosmolo]

You have not failed. You will succeed- the path is just yet to be determined. Repeat this to yourself 100 times. Seriously.

I do think when you're ready to walk him again you should try a front attaching harness- it will give you alot more leverage than a martingale.

I am hoping to do some sessions in Sydney and Canberra in the next few months. Hopefully you could make it to one if you're still struggling.

[Staffyluv]

You have not failed. You will succeed- the path is just yet to be determined. Repeat this to yourself 100 times. Seriously.

I do think when you're ready to walk him again you should try a front attaching harness- it will give you alot more leverage than a martingale.

I am hoping to do some sessions in Sydney and Canberra in the next few months. Hopefully you could make it to one if you're still struggling.

I would love to come to one if you come to Canberra.

I know I haven't failed (that would mean giving up and I won't do that), just feeling a bit sore and sorry for myself after today.

Do you have a brand of front attaching harness that you recommend?

I will get one (we have all the other stuff, we may as well have one of those too:)) and give it a try.

I think I can still walk him (as I tend to use my left hand anyway and it is my right elbow that is hurt).

We will be doing lots of focus work at home while I am recovering and my son said he would handle Zig at dog training if I can't.

[Cosmolo]

The Sensible harnesses are the best ones. Black dog balance harnesses are okay. Don't get a gentle leader fromt attach harness.

[Staffyluv]

The Sensible harnesses are the best ones. Black dog balance harnesses are okay. Don't get a gentle leader fromt attach harness.

Thanks, I will get one and see how I go.

I have just sent Underdog a message.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Staffyluv

[Staff'n'Toller]

Do you have an indoor dog pool anywhere near you Staffyluv? They can be great for exercise - and no other dogs to bother you if you can book private sessions.

[Staffyluv]

Do you have an indoor dog pool anywhere near you Staffyluv? They can be great for exercise - and no other dogs to bother you if you can book private sessions.

Not sure, I will have a look because he loves swimming - I let him swim every morning in the pond at the park.

That's a great idea, especially while my elbow is healing.

ETA - I just had a google and there was one but it is closed now.

Maybe I should buy a pool deep enough for him to swim in..

Edited February 6, 2013 by Staffyluv

[Staffyluv]

What are your thoughts about my suggestion that it might be anxiety related and trying a Thundershirt?

Sorry Snook, I missed that...

I don't know - he has no issue with storms, thunder or any loud noises like fire works or anything. It is definitely more excitement from what I can tell.

The fool sits in his clam shell in the middle of thunder storms.

I wonder if it could be? Maybe he is stressed because it is often a 'fight' to walk around and meet others - it's not the relaxing, nice walk it should be.

I was thinking with my arm sore, not making it all about training - just concentrating on his walking on lead. Going to the park at 5am when there is no one there and just walking around (no ball, no treats, just lots of praise and talking)... Just walk..

[Staffyluv]

It is, thanks - I don't think that Zig's issue is anxiety but hey, anything is worth a try if it is going to make life easier for both of us.

My son pointed out today that Zig acts like this when we don't have another dog at home.. He only gets over the top excited when he is home alone, so when I take him out he is always looking for another dog. I never even thought about that..

So he suggested getting another foster dog.. To see if that was the case (helps a dog, tests a theory and the dog will eventually be rehomed if the it doesn't work out).. It means 2 lots of training and walking again but I have done that a few times now.

Something else to thing about.

I am going to try Cos's idea of the front attaching harness and he has had no dinner and only half a breakfast today.

Tomorrow, I am going to try the early walk (5am ish) with no distractions around and see how we go.

No play time on this walk, just walking and walking.

ETA I have another 'treat' that he goes nuts for.. Getting to drink water from a pop top water bottle.. Every time he sees my water bottle (he has one as well) he wants it.. He only wants to drink the water from it..

Edited February 6, 2013 by Staffyluv

[corvus]

The Thundershirt works on arousal more than anything IME. We use it when Erik is anxious but also when he is over-aroused and it is just as effective. When he's very anxious and barking it will bring his arousal down so that he stops barking, but he is just as anxious. I can feel his heart pounding. He looks a lot calmer, though, so you have to be careful you are interpreting the behaviour correctly. It's great for pairing with counter-conditioning.

I don't know what Zig is like, but I truly believe Erik does not like being in a state of high excitement, even if it's good excitement. When he's that high he can't properly process what is happening around him and act appropriately. All his responses are too intense and he loses the flexibility to adjust his behaviour to a changing environment. This is especially challenging for him in mixing with strange dogs, because he can't respond appropriately to subtle changes in body language. He over-reacts and causes trouble for himself. If I decide he is too aroused for greeting another dog he actually seems quite relieved. I fancy he knows on some level that he is not really capable of appropriate behaviour at that moment. Once I cue LAT, which tells him he won't be interacting directly, he will cross to the far side of me and avoid looking at the other dog. It generally means we are too close. Farther away he will start LAT again.

The exception is when he is training or playing tug or fetch. He gets high as a kite, but it's all right because he is only being asked to focus on one thing he knows well. I imagine this is why the frisbee works so well for Zig. But if something unexpected turns up he is liable to flip out purely because he is already so aroused. I can usually get him to hold a down-stay, but this is after I did a lot of work with him to get his arousal down and his off switch working during training sessions. Other dogs are not so aware of their surroundings or are more focused on one thing.

So in summary, 1) don't assume the TS only works for anxiety or sound sensitivity and 2) high arousal can be stressful for dogs, particularly where they need to deal with unpredictable or ever-changing signals.

[Staffyluv]

I am thinking about getting one as I can always on sell it or give it to rescue if it doesn't work.

I just have one question from those that use them.. Do your dogs get hot in them?

Zig gets hot really quickly. He can chase a ball for 5 minutes and he is looking for a puddle, clam shell or any water to get in.

His excitement does increase and he is always looking around and doesn't focus on anything until he sees another dog. then he is like a steam train trying to get to the other dog. sometimes I can say leave it and we go on our merry way, other times I change direction and that works and then there are the times when nothing I do or say makes any difference