Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Weasels]

Does he take food in the car? In the front yard? At the neighbours place? Once you've found his threshold for food refusal you'll know where you need to work from :) Building up from there will have more success than teaching him the alphabet (at home) then asking him to read shakespeare (at the park).

Edited January 29, 2013 by TheLBD

[Cosmolo]

I would feed him absolutely nothing for free staffyluv- it might take a week or so to make a difference but it DOES make a difference- i have done it with multiple dogs.

Food is the easiest reward to manipulate hence why i'd be trying this as a first port of call. If he is even slightly overweight- this needs to change. He doesn't 'need' you right now and it's not a bad thing for him to need you a little more!

I also think that any play with other dogs at the moment is probably counter productive but i can't be certain because i don't know him.

[BC Crazy]

Sonny wasn't at all food orientated as a youngster. Discussed it with his breeder & she quite directly told me I had far too much on the menu. And not to feed Sonny until after I walked him. Cause I was having trouble with his recall. I soon had Sonny working for treats & very happy to come when he was called :) the only reason he wasn't interested was he wasn't hungry enough :)

[corvus]

How smelly is your food staffyluv? I agree with Corvus that working for food can be important because you can use it as both an active (get him hyped up) or passive (get him to calm down) reward. Toys tend to be active only and there are times when that isn't appropriate.

Too right.

I think it is Cos who has said that every dog - bar a very ill one - is food motivated. Dogs need food to live and they know it.

Aidan is also fond of saying things like that. They have to be food motivated. But I have come across dogs like this in my study. In fact, I had to dump a staffy mix because he just couldn't concentrate on the task. He'd give it a few minutes max, then it would be "Oh, a bird! Look, a toy! Let's play tug. Or I can just run around with it on my own. That's fine, too." He liked food well enough, he was just rarely calm enough to be able to work for it and was insanely distractible.

Anyway, I had a sudden brainwave. Staffyluv, you need the Give Me A Break game. Leslie McDevitt used to have a rescue JRT mix called Snap. This dog was a bit of a basket case. He could not concentrate on one thing for more than a few seconds. She had to start working him in her basement, and even there he would race off to investigate at the slightest sound from the plumbing or whatever. She eventually got him offering her all the attention she could want. The GMAB game was, I think, pivotal. The general idea is to ask for attention in small doses, then release the dog to do what they want. The more you release them the less they want to go. This is basically how I got Erik training in dog parks. He went from being able to give me about 2 seconds of focus even if there were no dogs in the park to being able to do complex tricks and clicker training with a strange dog approaching or getting in the way. Erik's ability to attend to me almost regardless of what is going on is hugely useful. It's the only reason he can be let off leash, really. If he wasn't so attentive he'd be a bit of a worry off leash. He is to some degree naturally attentive, but it took me months of very patient work to get him to the point he's at now. I did the same with Kivi, although it was a whole lot easier with him. Kivi will literally work around a dog with its head in my treat pouch without taking his eyes off me, and he's my uber social one. So I can attest that it does work, and very well. There are videos on demand that show it on CleanRun, I think.

[Staffyluv]

Good news - we are in at the dog training club..

Here is an example of his reaction to food. This morning he has had a rack of 3 ribs and that is all he has had all day.

My son was having a glass of milk with a couple of chocolate biscuits, Zig walked passed, sniffed the air and went to get his ball and bring it back to him.

This food thing has been an ongoing issue as far as training is concerned - our trainer said that not all dogs are food focused (It just makes it much easier to train if they are). We have been using the tennis ball for ages but even sometimes that doesn't get his attention - he is so easily distracted.

Hopefully with some formal training at the dog club, with the distractions we will get to the bottom of it..

[Staffyluv]

Sonny wasn't at all food orientated as a youngster. Discussed it with his breeder & she quite directly told me I had far too much on the menu. And not to feed Sonny until after I walked him. Cause I was having trouble with his recall. I soon had Sonny working for treats & very happy to come when he was called :) the only reason he wasn't interested was he wasn't hungry enough :)

Zig gets about 100-150g of roo meat at night (he rarely eats it, maybe once a week).

We walk at 6.30am every morning and he does not even want breakfast when we come home.

His chook carcass or ribs can sit there until lunch time some days.

Cos, he doesn't look overweight to me and I can quite easily feel his ribs down his sides but in saying that, I don't think he looks skinny either.

He is very fit and is quite happy to run for a couple of hours chasing a ball.

I usually throw a ball for him before we walk, to kill off a bit of excess energy - he seems to be nicer to walk once he has burned off a bit.

Corvus at home he is a total gem. I don't even need a lead on him to get him to heel, stay, sit, drop, wait, catch, fetch, look at that.. Home is about as great as it gets and training at home, he will take treats..

It is just the distraction out.

I think I mentioned when walking that he sits just out front of me (head and shoulders past my legs) - no pulling etc, it just seems to be where 'he' wants to walk and trying to get him back to me is, well a PITA because he is always looking around... At home, he walks exactly by my side.

I think that having the classes is going to be good because I need to learn to train him with distractions.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Staffyluv

[Cosmolo]

He turns his nose up at the food because he doesn't need it and isn't used to working for it- he is getting it for free later. You need to commit to not providing free food for at least 2 weeks to see a change. I have only had 2 clients dogs where i would not recommend this- these dogs were already too lean, EXTREMELY fussy and food deprivation would not have been in their best interest.

Their is little that can be achieved putting him in a distracting environment if you have nothing that he wants.

(I am not meaning to sound blunt at all- just in a hurry)

[Staffyluv]

He turns his nose up at the food because he doesn't need it and isn't used to working for it- he is getting it for free later. You need to commit to not providing free food for at least 2 weeks to see a change. I have only had 2 clients dogs where i would not recommend this- these dogs were already too lean, EXTREMELY fussy and food deprivation would not have been in their best interest.

Their is little that can be achieved putting him in a distracting environment if you have nothing that he wants.

(I am not meaning to sound blunt at all- just in a hurry)

Blunt is fine (I am not one to take it to heart and get all offended).

OK, so getting help with training isn't a good idea?

I don't have any issues when there are no distractions - it is when there are distractions that I lose his focus on me.

I would have thought that having the distractions (with the guidance of trainers) is how I would correct this behaviour?

The first session is Sunday morning (without dogs). I might just go along and talk to them and tell them our issues and see what they say.

His first session won't be until the following Sunday - so that gives me about a week and a half to get try and get him wanting food/treats.

I really don't want to do another training session on the fringe of a group and not hear what is going on again (we have done that the last 2 times we have registered for training)..

[Staffyluv]

I don't have any advice to offer but just wanted to wish you luck with it all Staffyluv. I can feel how frustrated you are through your posts and I hope it gets easier very soon.

Thanks Snook, so do I.

I don't think I explain it very well either - so that probably doesn't help when others try to offer advice

[Cosmolo]

There is little to be gained by putting a dog in a more distracting scenario when you have nothing to counter or help you help the dog deal with the distractions. All that will happen is that the dog will practice their bad behaviour and of course the associated emotions and this will all be reinforced. Introducing the distractions is important- but you have to be careful about going over threshold or really going anywhere near threshold when you don't have a working coping strategy and consistent motivator in place.

Does that make sense?

Some people say practice makes perfect- but you have to be practicing the right things.

[corvus]

I think everyone is giving you excellent advice here, Staffyluv. I would ask you what you are going to do in class if you can't reliably get Zig working for food anywhere but at home? It's not fair on him to put him in over his head with distractions and it is going to make you very frustrated. Foundations first. You need:

1) A conditioned marker or cue that tells Zig to orient to you right now because he's about to get something awesome. I usually use "Hey!" This is your foot in the door. It should be so well conditioned that he doesn't even think "Wait, do I want that something awesome right now?" He just looks to you. Practice it at least three times, three times a day for the next three weeks. Just pair it with awesome stuff. It's an exercise in classical conditioning.

2) Get him used to working for food. Cosmo's method is fine. In the past I have gone for frequency over quantity (lots of opportunities to earn a few bits of food), but you'll probably get it happening quicker if you do it Cosmo's way. Get him doing things around the house for food. You came inside when called? Good dog! Have a treat! He should feel that at any time he might get an opportunity to earn a tasty tidbit.

3) An idea of how much he can cope with before his brain breaks and he can't concentrate on food anymore. LBD has already suggested this and I think it will help you. If you know where his threshold is you can be better at staying under it and 'dicking around' there and gently pushing the envelope where you can do it in a controlled manner. This is an exercise in desensitisation. The idea is to give him exposure to stuff that is exciting without provoking him to great levels of excitement. He's practicing being around them without losing his concentration.

4) A plan for what you do when he loses his ability to focus. Example, get more distance, wait impassively until he gives up pulling, do a u-turn, arc off in a different direction (not as frustrating as a u-turn if his issue is frustration), teach take a breath, teach LAT, practice downs. There are plenty of options. We can help you pick one if you're not sure what would be best. If you know what you will do then you can just do it when you need to. He will appreciate the promptness and consistency of your guidance.

5) Do some off switch games so he learns to rev up and then relax again. This will help him manage his arousal and improve his self control and awareness when he gets excited.

You will have a much easier time of teaching him to focus on you in distracting environments if you build all this up first. Baby steps. If you build a strong foundation you will get places. If you don't, there's every chance you will be fixing one thing or another for a long time to come. What you don't want is him getting used to being excited and distracted around stuff. Generally I assume if a dog is distracted they are probably uncomfortable with the environment. For example, it is too exciting for them and they can't split their focus between you and all the exciting stuff going on, which creates conflict in them because they want to be able to do both and they can't. A bit of counter-conditioning never goes astray. Be kind to him. If he's conflicted, make it easier for him to choose you. Do this by reducing the intensity of the competing stimuli (distance), bringing his arousal down (massage, downs, if anything like that works), or bringing food into the equation. I know some people that use squeeze tubes to deliver peanut butter. The licking has a calming effect. If your conditioned attention cue is good enough, you can use that, but then you have to follow it up with something from that list.

ETA I still think GMAB would help you a lot. The video on demand is pretty cheap.

Edited January 29, 2013 by corvus

[BC Crazy]

I sympathise with you Staffyluv. It is hard enough to make progress at times without going forward only to go backwards again. I find that happens with Stella & you do get your hopes up.

He runs on empty your fella. Doesn't eat much at all, does he.

[Skye GSD]

He turns his nose up at the food because he doesn't need it and isn't used to working for it- he is getting it for free later. You need to commit to not providing free food for at least 2 weeks to see a change. I have only had 2 clients dogs where i would not recommend this- these dogs were already too lean, EXTREMELY fussy and food deprivation would not have been in their best interest.

Their is little that can be achieved putting him in a distracting environment if you have nothing that he wants.

(I am not meaning to sound blunt at all- just in a hurry)

I totally agree with Cosmolo - keep working on his focus at home and if you have it there, take baby steps to the front yard, down the street, then to an oval or training ground with minimum distractions. If at any stage along the way you lose his interest (and I don't mean he has to be looking at you the whole time!)just say "sorry" and head home again. It took me eight months of baby steps to get back to a club scene and to say this was fustrating at times is an understatement but it worked. For some dogs their highest reward (or fear)is distractions or other dogs so you need to minimise these while you work on your relationship outside the home environment. I, too, spent more time outside a training class than in it so to take a step back and concentrate on just our partnership has been the best thing I could have done.

[Staffyluv]

I sympathise with you Staffyluv. It is hard enough to make progress at times without going forward only to go backwards again. I find that happens with Stella & you do get your hopes up.

He runs on empty your fella. Doesn't eat much at all, does he.

He doesn't eat much but is not underweight either.

I did some research yesterday and looked at some pictures and compared him to other amstaffs (he is more amstaff than stafford in build).

He could probably lose a little to get that real tucked up tummy that the really lovely shaped animals have.

Someone asked about smelly food - if it is strong in smell he turns his nose up.

He is even turning his nose up at roo now and that has been our staple of a night for ages.

He won't eat liver or kidney..

He won't eat BBQ chook (but will eat raw chook on the bone, like wings, necks and carcasses)

He did eat cheese for a while but if it is the matured version, won't take it now. I might try some of those horrible cheese slices that have no smell and look like plastic. Same with ham and other sandwich meats (but I worry these are to high in salt).

He was on barf patties but stopped eating them months ago.

He seems to only want to eat meat on a bone and occasionally his kibble in his kong. So that is what I have been giving him.

He had a chicken wing for dinner last night.

He had 3 ribs of lamb on a rack (no backbone, just the ribs) this morning but he had to heel/sit/wait with me for about 5 minutes to get it.

Is this what everyone is talking about by no free food??

[hankdog]

I was walking today and spotted oncoming dog, wild looking for cover , calculate if I speed up I can get behind the car on the other side of the road. Oops other dog speeds up and makes for car.... turns out little terrier is reactive and so as I approach the owner calls out a warning and apology as the little guy starts furiously lunging and barking because he can see us under the car. Oh so that's what I look like to others, not so bad really.

We passed a new dog on the block today, it barked ferociously from behind a solid fence and Jake didn't go straight to bark. Lots of staring and sniffing at the fence and then some wild eyed LAT and little bit of crying. I kept him loose leash and let him figure it out and after a bit he decided to take treats and then move on. It was really good because I could see him thinking which is great that he can slow down enough to use his brain. I know he has one in there somewhere.

We have 2 new dogs moved in across the creek. Jake is very fastidious about were he toilets and has always gone off across the river to the wilds but since the newbies have arrived he won't go there and waits until we are on our walk. Poor dog they're 2 little poodle crosses but if they're barking he comes running inside all upset to tell me about it. Inside the big bulldog is a little pansy!

[Tassie]

That sounds like you're making really significant progress, hankdog!

[hankdog]

Had an interesting day. Out walking on a new route and big dog barks from behind a fence, so we settle and then keep walking to the gate. Two golden labs are wagging and wuffing at their side gate and since we've already settled Jake happily sits to look at them. Next thing he starts yipping in a funny high pitched way I've never heard before. Labs love it and one disappears and comes back witha toy that he starts tossing and catching. Lots of excitement and Jake starts little jumps and turns, everyone seems to be having fun but I move on because energy levels are rising and I don't want it to go south. When I get home the new neighbours poodle crosses are playing in their garden, my workroom has a balcony where Jake can sit and watch them and all week he's been running in to tell me about them and then we go watch them and I explain to Jake about how much fun it would be to play like they do. So we settle and in he comes to call me and while watching them I realise the yipping and capering he did earlier looks very similar to how these dogs behave. So I'm wondering if he's possibly been absorbing their play style and trying to model some pro social behaviour? Anybody had anything similar happen. You can bet we will be visiting those labs again.

[bronsoonWA]

Staffyluv, I recently went through a similar thing (except Oscar is obsessed with food - he just went fussy for some reason). I stopped offering anything but less than his required amount of kibble for a few days and then I used cooked sausage. This was recommended by our trainer and I liked it because I chose lean ones (10% fat) with no preservatives. After using just sausage for a week as training treats (and a small kibble kong) I introduced liver again and he seemed to like the variety and now he will take anything. I'm not actually sure how this worked but it did.

Hankdog, our trainer noticed that once (out of about 50 times) Oscars body language was playful towards another dog behind a fence, but she told me not to pursue it because he has poor social skills and it could easily turn sour and it would set him backwards. But perhaps Jake isn't as socially inept as Oscar!

Our behavourist has been on holiday since mid December so we have had a break from training. I also gave Oscar 2 weeks off walks because of the heatwave and a few walks where he was just way over threshold after being charged by an escapee chihauhua. We cross the road went behind a car and then were cornered against someones house Oscar just dropped to the ground in fear. I was furious at the owner who laughed and slowly walked over to retrieve him. Some people just dont get a scared dog will attack if required.

We are back into it now and he is doing so much better. When we approach a barking fenced dog (or sometimes just a house where there has been one) instead of pulling apulling with raised hackles and getting ready to bark/lunge he decides we are going to cross the road and avoid. I'm unsure whether to reward this behaviour by cross the road or to lure him past with treats. I have tried both and I am leaning towards asking him to walk passed, as long as he will still accept food. I was proud that he had learnt that we dont bark and lunge at scary dogs, we aviod them. But it seems like to progress further I should ask him to pass them.

[Staffyluv]

Wish me luck - I have cut his food by one third and he is training for treats really well at home with no distraction.

I am going to do the same at the park this week very early of a morning and later some afternoons with some distraction to see how he goes.

I went to the intro at the local obedience club this morning and talked with a couple of the trainers there.

They both think he will benefit from the formal obedience training. So we will be going into a small class of 5 dogs (including him). It is only a 45 minute class (unlike our last classes which went for 2 hours), plus lots of homework for both of us.

My first homework was to find something that appeals to him more than his tennis ball. So off to the deli and I bought one of just about everything.

Slices of different hams, beef, chicken and salami were not interesting, turkey was interesting, cabanossi is even more interesting. Hot dog was also pretty good but the cabanossi was the one that he took over his tennis ball.

I tried cheese, hot BBQ chook as well but he still went for the ball not the food.

I also bought some puppy treats (on the advice of the trainers today) and they were better than the ball - finally I have something to work with.

[hankdog]

Don't know if you have a south African shop near you but try get some biltong, it's dried salted beef stuff. Dogs can smell it a mile away,( and it survives the wash in your pockets).

Bronsoon I have a chi owner in my street with the same attitude, he calls it the Anglo- Mexican war which is hilarious if you're not on the end of a lunging dogs lead. Jake has less than zero social skills unfortunately, but sometimes I get excited when I see a glimmer of normal dog behavior. My instinct would be to allow him to cross the road to avoid if he willl go quietly but I know there's also an argument to not encourage the fearful behavior. I guess it will depend on where you are in the process.

Edited February 3, 2013 by hankdog