Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

So my DA dog has been doing really well at obediance. He passed straight through begginers, class 1 and nearly class 2 first shot (they were iffy so I told them to fail him as I liked the class and he is there to get use to dogs not get in the obediance ring anyway).

Until the last 2 weeks. He has just lost it started barking and carrying on. First week I thought he is just having a off week but then he did it again yesterday. I couldn't even get within 50 metres of the class and 3 weeks ago he was sitting in the middle of the pack with only about 2 barks the whole hour.

I don't think it has been really aggressive just seems to be so excited. He has been worse on his walks too. He is always ultra alert and doesn't want to go down the streets that have dogs that bark from behind fences.

He is going back to the private trainer but I wondered if anyone had any ideas in the mean time?

What has happened that has changed his attitude? Are the dogs working closer together? Are you allowing him play time during the class? It could even be something as simple as you allowing him to strain on the lead on his way over, which may be causing him to become over aroused. LAT could work for you, but it would definitely be useful to figure out what has triggered him to act this way. Sometimes it's really obvious (like the pug biting him, poor baby!) but sometimes it's a thousand times more subtle.

[chuckandsteve]

Yeah thats my problem, no idea. Though OH mentioned the neighbour has a new dog, the other side of the house to which he lives though. His exercise routine has been a little less due to it being my busy month at work. But I'm not sure either of those will have had this effect.

[Staffyluv]

So my DA dog has been doing really well at obediance. He passed straight through begginers, class 1 and nearly class 2 first shot (they were iffy so I told them to fail him as I liked the class and he is there to get use to dogs not get in the obediance ring anyway).

Until the last 2 weeks. He has just lost it started barking and carrying on. First week I thought he is just having a off week but then he did it again yesterday. I couldn't even get within 50 metres of the class and 3 weeks ago he was sitting in the middle of the pack with only about 2 barks the whole hour.

I don't think it has been really aggressive just seems to be so excited. He has been worse on his walks too. He is always ultra alert and doesn't want to go down the streets that have dogs that bark from behind fences.

He is going back to the private trainer but I wondered if anyone had any ideas in the mean time?

What has happened that has changed his attitude? Are the dogs working closer together? Are you allowing him play time during the class? It could even be something as simple as you allowing him to strain on the lead on his way over, which may be causing him to become over aroused. LAT could work for you, but it would definitely be useful to figure out what has triggered him to act this way. Sometimes it's really obvious (like the pug biting him, poor baby!) but sometimes it's a thousand times more subtle.

Ziggy over reacts at most situations.

We are learning to curb that exuberance as most other dogs don't like it when a 28kg staffy cross comes running at them to say hi.

He doesn't get anything unless he is calm.

He doesn't get his lead on (to go to the park or to train) unless he is sitting calmly and waiting for it.

We don't go out the door, unless he is calm.

We don't get in or out of the car until he is calm.

We don't enter the dog park unless he is calm.

He doesn't get his toys unless he is calm.

I find it very challenging with Zig because he really couldn't care less about food.

Occasionally he is interested in cheese or liver treats.

We had about 10 minutes of success with hot dogs and the same with turkey.

Once he has tasted something a couple of times he is not interested.

We use a squeaky ball to train with. Slowly I am introducing a non squeaky ball as the squeak tends to bother some other owners at training as it disrupts their dog and their training (I completely understand and we spend a good deal of time, way out of the group)..

We tried the clicker but again it only seemed effective for a short period of time.

The biggest thing with him is that he doesn't get anything until he calms down. We don't even walk forward, we will remain still and wait.

Once he shows he is calm, then we walk, play ball, do all the things he wants to do.

If we go off leash, I have to watch his excitement levels. If it starts to escalate, his recall becomes affected, so I call him, leash him and we leave the park.

Look at me has been really good for us as well.

Blocking is another resource I am using now.

I block him from other dogs - I put myself between him and the other dogs.

At the moment I am using fences and buildings to block him on one side, so I can block from the other side. Hopefully one day, I will be successful in just using me.

They are a challenge

Edited December 10, 2012 by Staffyluv

[corvus]

One thing I have found incredibly useful with bringing excitement levels down quickly is teaching my dog to take a breath on cue. I taught it by holding a treat above his nose and when he opened his mouth to take it I'd pull it out of his way and then pop it to him when he closed his mouth. Because dogs inhale when they go to swallow something same as we do. Nothing calms him faster when we are out and about. I also use downs a lot and used to "trade down" active behaviours for slightly less active behaviours until I got him to a quiet down. I don't have to trade down so much anymore, but it was useful once upon a time.

Take A Breath is another CU thing. Another way to teach it is to watch for nostril flares and mark and reward when you see one. A nostril flare indicates inhaling. I couldn't see it on Erik, but it was quite clear on Kivi. I still use TAB if Erik gets really wound up, but we rarely have to go through a process of calming him anymore. Just TAB, a few LATS maybe, a quiet down or two and we are good to go. It's been about a year since we had to, say, take him off the beach back through the dunes because the beach itself had got him too aroused and he was flinging LATs out at absolutely everything.

[hankdog]

It's amazing what dogs can learn, on another thread someone had taught their dog to prompt their OH to change the toilet roll, now that's a useful skill. Corvus you must be an expert trainer to be able to teach him to take a breath on command. When I watch my trainer with Jake she can really get the timing so easily but I do feel a bit like I'm doing open heart surgery with a wooden spoon somedays. Oh well I'm all he's got so we will make do. Ratbag had a better session today he came flying out the car ready to go for his life so we just sat and did some tricks to calm him. Staffyluv I've been using the freeze technique to get good walking, pretty idiot proof as soon as the leash tightens you stop for 10 seconds. If you use your martingale you will hear the chains click before the leash tightens and I use that as my cue to stop. Jake takes 6 weeks to show a change in behavior and this is week 5 so he's getting it now. We took him out for a walk on his own and we walked at a snails pace and as well as walking well he also started to look up which is great and slow walking and stopping takes all the energy out of the walk. He was calm by the time we got back and we casually chatted in front of Chili and any time he reacted I would hand the lead to Vicki and walk away. In the end he was sniffing around and running back and forwards for thrown treats all within about 6 meters of Chilli. Poor dog I think I nearly walked the paws off him this week and we've had a no dog no food thing happening for a week, think I will banish black thoughts and sleep in tomorrow and he can have breakfast in a bowl at home.

Edited December 10, 2012 by hankdog

[Staffyluv]

I don't know how it happened but this morning we were walking and he got to the end of the lead in front of me and I said 'wait'.

So he stopped and waited for me..

I use wait when I want him to sit and wait for something (toys, dinner, don't come out of the car yet)...

Why on earth, didn't I think of it before..

Every time he got to the end of the lead, I said wait and he stopped and waited for me..

I still wish he would walk beside me.

He does when we are in training and I ask him to heel - he walks with his head level with my thigh, watching me.

But out on a walk, he won't heel and he always has to be out front, preferably at the end of the lead..

At least he isn't really pulling my arms out of the socket, like he was originally.

Zig is definitely a challenge and a work in progress..

[corvus]

Corvus you must be an expert trainer to be able to teach him to take a breath on command.

Not really. :laugh: It's easier than it sounds. You just have to look close is all. Getting your timing right takes practice, but that's all.

[hankdog]

You'd think so but no, so many training bloopers. Proofing him walking up to a bus shelter of people led to him treating previously innocent bus shelters as suspicious. Taking every meal on the road last week taught him not to eat at home out a bowl and yesterday's favourite making recall more formal, calling him in from outside three times "jake come" sit in front if me and get a lick of peanut butter. Last night called him from where he was sleeping on the couch to come to me in the room next door, if he can see me he will normally just look and say "yea whad'ya want". Well trained dog jumps off couch runs past me to cupboard where peanut butter is stored! So much more than timing.

I think half the problem is I am a rubbish pack leader. As part if giving it all last week I started making sure I walk through doors first etc, I find this really hard it somehow offends me to be so rude on a very basic level. Interesting what you learn about yourself when dog training.

Edited December 11, 2012 by hankdog

[corvus]

Aww, hankdog, hang in there. Some dogs really sharpen our training skills. My Erik has managed to find the slightest of holes or weaknesses in any training method I have tried and exploited the hell out of it. I don't even want to say some of the things he's done because they sound insane and no one will believe me. It takes some playing around to figure out which signals he is using to predict what and what is reinforcing. And some thinking outside the square to figure out what to do about it. I learnt to be careful about what I was doing and what it might predict. Is my cue as strong as an environmental cue he's using? Am I following one cue always with the same behaviour, thus giving him the opportunity to skip forwards to that part of the sequence and skip an earlier part?

Don't beat yourself up about being a pack leader. It's not that big a deal. I don't think you need to walk through doors first and if it makes you uncomfortable you shouldn't do it. Being a good leader for your dog just means being consistent and predictable, I think. And listening to your dog. Take it slow, listen, be predictable.

[Staffyluv]

They are as different as we are - what works for one, may not work for another.

Training is an ongoing thing and sometimes small changes need to be made to get the end result.

My old stafford was so easy.

My new staffy cross is a nightmare a lot of the time but he is a really nice dog (he just has some issues)..

You would think both being some sort of staffy (one pure the other a cross) that they would be similar to train - that couldn't be further from the truth.

Zig challenges me at every opportunity. Give him an inch and he takes the whole mile every time.

Hang in there, we all have days (or weeks) where we wonder why it isn't working like we think it should..

[SammieS]

I have some catching up to do...

StaffyLuv - I think we all have works in progress...! I have moments like "why didn't I do that before" all the time!

Hankdog - I thought I was a terrible pack leader too... I think I just didn't have a great relationship with Asti so I decided that I'd work on making her feel safe and trying to get her trust and make things fun. I enrolled both our two in a Clicks and Tricks class, and it was so much fun and it meant I could see Asti having fun and that she could 'learn' right from wrong and now these tricks are something in my toolbox that I can use to reduce to reactivity. The tricks also meant that we spent time together without other dogs and I could set her up to succeed...

Corvus - I'd be interested to know how Erik expoited the holes in your training and what you changed to get around that. I was thinking you might have some ideas/tips that could help us. It would seem that the ClicksTricks class also made my two smarter! and think "outside of the box" a bit more, as we were doing free shaping, so any new ideas on how you worked with Erik would be great!

That's great news in your last post Snook! Justice is doing so well and coming along great guns - I'm a little jealous...? I wish your trainer could come to qld!

however, all is not lost...

I'd like to put a title on my post called "Reactive Dog? What reactive dog?"

Two weeks ago I decided that seen as I'm doing longer and longer hours at work (due to a project going live in January and we are soooo not ready!) that with Angus (our 16 month old Frenchie) being awake at 5am I would get up and walk our dogs through the bushland behind our house. For a little while I've avoiding doing the bushwalks with Asti our reactive Frenchie (who I have mentioned several times in this thread) because the paths are too narrow and we always encounter off lead dogs (which aren't allowed to be offlead anyway) and owners who don't recall their dogs so we can pass without drama.

So, our 5am walks have actually turned into something exciting, Asti is starting to get up earlier waiting for us to go! I think the big difference is that we have gone from passing 3-4 crazy dogs each afternoon to maybe passing 1 dog in 3 days in the morning... this has meant that Asti is starting to change her association with the bush walks and enjoying them. She's starting to walk ahead of us now instead of slinking behind and wanting to turn around and pull in the opposite direction to go home!

Yesterday we visited the holistic vet for some acupuncture for Asti. We were early and decided to visit the pet shop next door to see what treats they have. Asti was outstanding, she was able to show selfcontrol in the new environment, dog treats, toys, kids coming in and out and the friendly shop owner who insisted on man-patting her head! It was about 10 minutes of walking around before she reached threashold, so my husband took her out the front door where calm was restored and she was happy to sit and watch visitors enter/leave.

My final and proudest moment was going back to the vet where there was another very scared and over threashold dog behind cuddled by its owner, we managed to side step around them and we got Asti to perform her tricks for treats and she performed them perfectly even though we were in a new and fairly stressful environment. I was so happy I took a photo! Maybe I should put it on the fridge like parents do when their children bring home paintings from kindy?! ha!

Its all a big step forward, because some days, I think Asti's training is going backwards... thanks for letting me share, I think only other reactive dog owners would know how much the above really means!

Sammie

[BC Crazy]

Quick update with my girl Stella. Have been flat out so I have missed lots on my fav thread, so am trying to play catch ups when I can

Stella has made some improvement when we are out & about as far as her reactivity is concerned regarding other dogs. I find if I talk to her

if a happy tone as the dog approaches like, "lets say hi Stel" what a nice dog blah, blah, I seem to find she doesn't get quite so intense & focused

on it & she has even actually meet one of her 'enermies' the other day & was very well behaved. We had a very quick "hi" & bye without incident where as

before she would of been barking at him from 100 metres away. Know this all sounds a bit crazy but I figure what ever works I'll do. I don't want her to

love every dog but just don't want her to completely lose it at the sight of one approaching. Off lead there have also been improvements, not so pushy, more

giving eye contact,lots of talking but avoiding & continuing on her merry way without incident. Which is great I have become a lot more aware of her body language

& seem to be able to read her far better than before & can interupt her negitive behaviour with a quick, lets turn around game that I have always played with my 2. We

just about face & off we go as soon as I think we may be going to get anxious or her mood is escalating.

At home we are going backwards big time unfortunately I am off to the Vets on Monday to pick up some new meds for her as the Endep just doesn't seem to be working for her any more.

Poor girl is back to not resting all day & running franticly & whining at the slightest noise/sound. I have her in her Thunder Shirt pretty much all the time which does help a little.

Her eyes have this awful scared look of fear in them that upsets me so much. Poor little girl. I am holding back tears as it upsets me so much to see her so tormented. I try to calm her

but you can't reach her emotionally. It's like she is shut down. It is no way for her to live like she has been of late. We are right back where we started from in that respect.

Anyway we will see what the Vet's come up with on Monday folks. Maybe he might be able to prescribe something for me as well :laugh: I feel like I have been to hell & back this week with her

as I am having to get up to her lots during the night as she 'thought' she may heard a bird or something talking 2 doors up & she is going off her nut in her crate

[corvus]

Sorry to hear about Stella. It must be very hard. I know how I feel when Erik is having a bad week and he's never been anywhere near that bad. Have you tried giving her some things to do to keep her mind off her surroundings? Frozen Kongs are the Awesome. The combination of licking, chewing, and spending lots of time concentrating on the Kong is gold for us here. I don't know what we'd do without them. It may also give an indication of how bad it is and what the problem is exactly. I work backwards. What do I need to do to get Erik to a place where he will work on a frozen Kong?

SammieS, Erik is very talented at turning my training around to benefit him. He will bark and lunge at things to get me to call him back. Then it's turn on a dime and race back to me and do whatever I ask him to do for a treat. He similarly learnt to 'play' with Kivi when told to go play by biting him until he squealed so I would call him back. He very much likes training. He knows all the ways to get me to train him. Generally these problems can be solved by taking a step back and calling him over BEFORE he does something obnoxious. However, I took this one step further once and started rewarding him for ignoring things he might have been thinking about barking at. Next time he saw anything he had been rewarded for not barking at he started barking and lunging at them. He had apparently decided to use my interest in these things to tell him what he could use to get my attention. That one has been much harder to deal with. I just make sure he's on leash and ignore him. If he wants my attention on walks there are two ways to get it. If we are still, lying down quietly in front of me. If we are moving, falling in beside me and making eye contact. It is still a work in progress. It's difficult at times to walk the line between responding to him when he genuinely needs my rules and guidance and ignoring him when he's being a brat. How do I know when he's barking because he doesn't like something and when he's barking at something because he is trying to get me to call him away? They sound and look exactly the same! I mostly use LAT. If he's offering lots of LAT, I assume he's genuinely unsettled and needs help. If he's firing up at something the moment I disengage with him slightly, he's probably trying to get my attention and I ignore him. If he gets carried away with the barking and doesn't come around on his own, I suggest quietly that he knows what he should be doing and it's lying down quietly. He gets high levels of reinforcement for doing that bit.

ETA to fix name! Gettin' my DOL dogs mixed up. Sorry BC Crazy.

Edited December 15, 2012 by corvus

[BC Crazy]

Thanks for your compassion Corvus. Stella is a very difficult girl pretty much most of the time. A whole lot of dog.....She is also a very loving, super smart, extremely sweet girl with reactive overload who performs at her worst in the back yard.

Stella loves her Kongs but she doesn't like them frozen. She just runs off & leaves it on the ground. Even if they are not frozen she will smell it but just runs off on her mission if she hears the slightest thing

As we speak Stella has finally laid down for the first time today thank goodness. For how long we will just have to wait & see.

No worries re name corvus, been called much worse :)

Edited December 15, 2012 by BC Crazy

[corvus]

I just thought I'd put this out there in case some found it useful... Not saying that it's perfect or anything! I had just turned the video on a few weeks ago to film some training when Erik decided he was disturbed by this softball practice going on in the field. I pretty much had to leave the video on while I managed him, but when I checked it later I realised it's actually not a bad video for showing LAT in particular, and our use of default downs. Erik is very barky, so this is pretty low level reactions from him. If this happened tomorrow I don't think I would reinforce so much, but he wouldn't need it. I hadn't been aware he had improved that much! The sheer frequency of his offered LATs is an indication he's pretty disturbed in this video. Erik deeply mistrusts ball games.

The second bit of the clip shows him barking for attention instead of because he was bothered. See if you can pick the difference. It's hard especially because the volume is quiet.

[BC Crazy]

Watched that utube clip with great interest corvus. Stella is also a very reactive barker.

After a lengthy chat with our Vet this morning he advised me to up Stella's Endep from 50g to 75g per day & see how she goes. He said as the Endep was agreeing with her & she isn't having any side effects

to continue with it. It seemed to him that it just the dosage we have to get right. We will just see how we go Hopefully she settles down a bit.

We are off to Victoria on the w.end for 2 weeks. 12 hour car ride. Lets hope it works alright. LOOOOONNNNGGGG way if it doesn't :laugh:

Edited December 17, 2012 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

I'm so sad to hear Stella is struggling, poor girl. Somewhere in general discussion is a thread asking about Xanax and others have posted their experiences... might be helpful. Jake has now been on Prozac for 2 weeks, has definitely helped with his separation anxiety (bit lonely going to bathroom by myself now). Initially he was dopey but has now picked up but it is nice to not have to leap out of bed at sunrise.

I'm not really objective enough to say if it's helped with his reactivity, I hear myself always telling people he's improved but I tend to wear rosey glasses so I'll rely on my trainers impression tomorrow. My vet was not positive about putting dogs on drugs so I have ambivalent feelings about the whole thing.

Lovely to have some good news, Justice and a summer bromance. Hehe Snook three in a bed you must be squished in the corner or hanging on the edge.

I wish I could take Jake to a tricks class, he's such a good tricker but I've run out of tricks to teach him. He does a marvelous death roll and last week was happy to do it in front of Chilli which was great. And bulldogs upside down always make me laugh.

Erik's lovely Corvus but your black dog who is so patiently watching the treats going past him is just beautiful, reminds me of my Hank, something very noble about him.

[BC Crazy]

I'm so sad to hear Stella is struggling, poor girl. Somewhere in general discussion is a thread asking about Xanax and others have posted their experiences... might be helpful. Jake has now been on Prozac for 2 weeks, has definitely helped with his separation anxiety (bit lonely going to bathroom by myself now). Initially he was dopey but has now picked up but it is nice to not have to leap out of bed at sunrise.

I'm not really objective enough to say if it's helped with his reactivity, I hear myself always telling people he's improved but I tend to wear rosey glasses so I'll rely on my trainers impression tomorrow. My vet was not positive about putting dogs on drugs so I have ambivalent feelings about the whole thing.

Lovely to have some good news, Justice and a summer bromance. Hehe Snook three in a bed you must be squished in the corner or hanging on the edge.

I wish I could take Jake to a tricks class, he's such a good tricker but I've run out of tricks to teach him. He does a marvelous death roll and last week was happy to do it in front of Chilli which was great. And bulldogs upside down always make me laugh.

Erik's lovely Corvus but your black dog who is so patiently watching the treats going past him is just beautiful, reminds me of my Hank, something very noble about him.

Hi Hankdog, thank you for your compassion regarding Stella. I know I'm not the only one who has a reactive dog & is at their wits end but you just feel so alone & helpless

in this situation at times. When you are doing everything you can to help them & you love them so much it just rips you in two to see them so agitated & stressed. Stella can

be near exhaustion & still run helter skelter in a blind haze whining in our back yard over what appears to a neighbour that has sat down on their rear deck or their is a bird

in our tree or just anything. I have tried to put her in her crate at times & also inside the house but she tried to run through our glass sliding door, head butting it, almost

breaking her neck. Crating her I have the same worry, self harm.....

Some good news though since I have increased her meds there is some markable improvement. She is resting under her favourite tree ATM after a 2 hour beach swim & play. She slept right

through the night last night, first time in ages. While she still flips out she calms back down quicker I know it is very early days but you grab onto any glimmer of improvement

in this situation, don't you. Stella is the sweetest, dearest, most loving girl & she tries so dam hard to be good & do what it asked of her & in all other aspects she is almost perfect in all

honesty... Reactivity with her I believe is something that is almost out of her control. It is like a compulsion. Dam frustrating for me, so can't imagine what it must be like for my girl

Edited December 19, 2012 by BC Crazy

[disintegratus]

Glad she's doing better BC crazy :)

I know the feeling. The other day I took Thundercleese for a walk and he didn't flip out at anything. The worst he got was an easily broken stare at someone walking across the road. I was so excited I called my entire family and my boyfriend while he was at work to tell them how awesome it was that I went for what most people would consider to be a normal walk! :laugh:

My Thundercleese is the same in that he tries sooo hard to be a good dog, his only shortcoming is his fear aggression. In everything else (except his short stabby fur that falls out everywhere) he's practically perfect, and I could honestly never ask for a dog more devoted to me.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

I'm so happy you're finally starting to begin to solve the Stella puzzle BC Crazy :) *hugs*

Small brag - my lil Poots was allowed to free range last Sunday when le boy's family was over. Nephew is 11, nieces are 6 and 4. The 4 year old niece (under VERY close supervision) stalked Scootie all day and he was pretty pleased about it! The 6 year old was taught how to pick him up (by me) and was grinning ear to ear giving him cuddles and receiving kisses. SO PROUD. When he started to get a bit overtired and grumpy we put him away, and then he came back out to say goodbye. :D