Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[flux]

My dog isn't agressive, but he is "special" and used to get into scrapes (never bitten or attacked another dog, one of those socially inept, why do other dogs pick on me when i jump on them? Or greet them with my hackles up?) mostly due to his fearfulness. I've taken him to a behaviourist and now Riley is just a bit quirky at times (very quick to raise hackles, stiffen tail.. over rabbits). I discovered a local off lead spot on a river near where I am in Canberra, turns out the day was even better because the side of the river we were on was just us, whereas the other side was covered in dogs. In my instance there is actually no need for this separation at all, but it was nice to have exclusive river use! And it was good to have dogs all around us being busy and active without dogs necessarily interacting with us. The water was also a great drainer of energy for everybody! I'm not sure if you can figure out some equivalent watery spot to help?

Also we often walked off lead in pouring rain, when nobody else was likely to appear, and really early on a Saturday morning or late on a Sunday when it was less likely to bump into other people and their dogs. Obviously I completely agree that nobody should be letting highly reactive dogs off lead without some sort of safety net in place. My post is just about off leads walks and exercises I have done to avoid other dogs. They certainly helped me to relax!

[hankdog]

That's such a good idea although I can't think of anything except maybe I will row Jake over to the island in narrabeen lakes and we can just camp there until he gets over his nonsense!

[Staffyluv]

We have a new issue that has developed over the last week.

Walking at the park (on lead) and he sees another dog:

He usually stops and wants to look (no matter how far away it is) and I have allowed that for a few seconds and then I say 'lets go'.

A few times of late, we have actually met the other dogs. He is over the moon to say hello and that is all good - it is when we go to leave that it starts.

Now I have had staffords most of my life - I have heard all sorts of noises come out of them and staffy crosses like Zig.

But he is screaming when we leave the dogs - so loud that we have had comments the last 2 days..

It sounds like a little kid actually screaming in tantrum.. (Which I am sort of thinking that is exactly what this is because he doesn't want to leave).

His time at leash free parks is very limited and he hasn't been for a few weeks now because we have been working more on lead (he is a puller and needs lots more work where this is concerned)..

So, I always take the squeaky tennis ball - one squeak and he looks directly at me.

He gets to say hi to the other dog, gets very excited and it is time for us to go (I don't like him getting like this as it escalates to me losing his attention).. When we leave, he is always trying to go back to the other dog. Then the screaming starts.

I squeak the ball to get his attention and when he sits for it and waits a few seconds, once he seems calmer, he gets his ball.

Am I rewarding the bad behaviour giving him the ball - because he did it this morning and immediately sat for the ball after screaming???

I don't want this screaming thing to continue - it is new and it is not nice..

Suggestions would be most welcome, thanks in advance.

[hankdog]

Well that's interesting because now that we work with Chilli, the point that Jake most struggles with is when he has to turn his body away. He will turn his head for a treat as he approaches then will stand, very tensely in front of Chilli but as you try turn his body away is when he lets rip. He also has bloodcurdling yell down to a fine art. I think it's better than snarling ( which he's never done) and I find it less aggressive sounding than barking but I know it' freaks people out and the sound really travels. At the moment we are practicing walking up and turning away and I feel that once we can quietly do that a huge hurdle will have been achieved. Maybe just circling him in front of a dog is the way to go, I've started saying "come away" as a command and practice on my chooks who he has some interest in but I think it would be important to nip it in the bud before it gets too wild.

[Tassie]

Sounds like a tanty to me, staffyluv. :laugh: My agility feral girl does a major screaming tanty (souinding like she's being murdered) if she's left in the car while I take the boy off to do something which Kirra thinks she should be doing - something with jumps, or tracking etc. She couldn't care less if he's only going to do obedience :laugh: .

Just at a quick read, since he puts so much value on saying hi to the other dog, I'd be doing a few turn and go moves first - maybe reward with ball, then if he's really compliant, you can cue him to say hi - briefly - then turn and go - if he does that nicely, reward with a turn back to go say hi. (Hope you have some cooperative dog owners around :D .) Rinse and repeat - trying to get the turn and go in before he gets too fixed on the saying hi bit - and for the last 'go' - reward with great excitement and a nice game with the ball.

Lots of purposeful changes of direction, with marking and rewarding as he pays attention again - can often help with the pulling while walking, too.

[corvus]

He gets to say hi to the other dog, gets very excited and it is time for us to go (I don't like him getting like this as it escalates to me losing his attention).. When we leave, he is always trying to go back to the other dog. Then the screaming starts.

I squeak the ball to get his attention and when he sits for it and waits a few seconds, once he seems calmer, he gets his ball.

Am I rewarding the bad behaviour giving him the ball - because he did it this morning and immediately sat for the ball after screaming???

I don't want this screaming thing to continue - it is new and it is not nice..

Suggestions would be most welcome, thanks in advance.

What happens if you squeak the ball before you are about to leave? This kind of thing is dog dependent. For some dogs it's a sign that they are getting the idea and are in the process of exchanging one behaviour for another. For other dogs it means they have figured out screaming results in squeaky balls. ;) Depends how clever your dog is. Trust me, dumb dogs are better! Anyway, regardless of which one it is, squeaking the ball before the screaming starts should go a long way to making sure you're both on the right track. You can't reward a behaviour that never occurs.

[corvus]

Well that's interesting because now that we work with Chilli, the point that Jake most struggles with is when he has to turn his body away. He will turn his head for a treat as he approaches then will stand, very tensely in front of Chilli but as you try turn his body away is when he lets rip.

This sounds very much like you are bringing him in too close to the other dog. He is uncomfortable, so when you ask him to turn his back on the other dog you're actually asking him to put himself in a more vulnerable position as he can't see clearly what Chilli is doing when he's turned away. It sounds like you're doing something like Behaviour Adjustment Therapy (BAT), which is awesome! But it's also quite a subtle method. I wouldn't want to presume it's going right or wrong. That's up to you and your trainer to assess. The general aim of BAT is to avoid all unwanted reactions. If the dog does any it is presumed they are too close or are being taken away before they are ready. The emphasis is on allowing the dog to disengage in their own time and rewarding that by taking the dog away. That may not be what your trainer is going for, though. Might be worth discussing it with them.

[Staffyluv]

He gets to say hi to the other dog, gets very excited and it is time for us to go (I don't like him getting like this as it escalates to me losing his attention).. When we leave, he is always trying to go back to the other dog. Then the screaming starts.

I squeak the ball to get his attention and when he sits for it and waits a few seconds, once he seems calmer, he gets his ball.

Am I rewarding the bad behaviour giving him the ball - because he did it this morning and immediately sat for the ball after screaming???

I don't want this screaming thing to continue - it is new and it is not nice..

Suggestions would be most welcome, thanks in advance.

What happens if you squeak the ball before you are about to leave? This kind of thing is dog dependent. For some dogs it's a sign that they are getting the idea and are in the process of exchanging one behaviour for another. For other dogs it means they have figured out screaming results in squeaky balls. ;) Depends how clever your dog is. Trust me, dumb dogs are better! Anyway, regardless of which one it is, squeaking the ball before the screaming starts should go a long way to making sure you're both on the right track. You can't reward a behaviour that never occurs.

OK, I think I might try squeaking the ball before we leave and see how that goes.

Usually I just say lets go and start to walk. He walks but then turns back tot the other dog and carries on.

He wants his ball all the time, but only gets it when he is compliant and he relaxes a bit..

I think I am using the squeak at the wrong time.. I need tomame it more of a lets go so you get the ball, instead of a lets go, you can have the ball when you chill out... If you know what I mean..

Tassie, you are right, it's just like one massive tanty, little turd..

I love this thread, it and our trainer have made such a huge difference to mine and Zig's relationship.

It is still very much a work in progress but it is usually a joyful thing..

[hankdog]

Well that's interesting because now that we work with Chilli, the point that Jake most struggles with is when he has to turn his body away. He will turn his head for a treat as he approaches then will stand, very tensely in front of Chilli but as you try turn his body away is when he lets rip.

This sounds very much like you are bringing him in too close to the other dog. He is uncomfortable, so when you ask him to turn his back on the other dog you're actually asking him to put himself in a more vulnerable position as he can't see clearly what Chilli is doing when he's turned away. It sounds like you're doing something like Behaviour Adjustment Therapy (BAT), which is awesome! But it's also quite a subtle method. I wouldn't want to presume it's going right or wrong. That's up to you and your trainer to assess. The general aim of BAT is to avoid all unwanted reactions. If the dog does any it is presumed they are too close or are being taken away before they are ready. The emphasis is on allowing the dog to disengage in their own time and rewarding that by taking the dog away. That may not be what your trainer is going for, though. Might be worth discussing it with them.

Not really BAT I think more a general desensitization and just working out what he is about. I suppose I sort if knew he was very reactive but after a few sessions she told me on Monday that Jake is on the extreme end of reactive and she's not really sure how much improvement we will get. I have been told PTS before but he has improved since I got him so it's still pretty hard to hear. Pulling out all the stops this week, he's been to the (not supportive) vet who has reluctantly put him on a months trial of Prozac, his Thundershirt has been ordered and I'll just figure out a way to sew ice packs in it and all meals are being taken on the road and eaten in presence of other dogs. You can do this Jake!

[Skye GSD]

I would be avoiding all other dogs and concentrating on focus/obedience. Make yourself his sole source of fun and forget trying to sociaiise him until you achieve control. My girl was extremely reactive to the point where she would bark and lunge at another dog from across the oval. I contacted Steve Courtney from K9Pro and with the introduction of a prong collar and his Loose Leash Walking program, eighteen months later Skye is now the poster girl at my training club for what you can achieve with strong leadership. Every week we have owners turning up with reactive/aggressive dogs that have been "expelled" from other clubs due to their disruptiveness and I feel their pain because I have walked that same road.

It is not something that can be fixed overnight but through baby steps. Patience is not my strongest virtue and there were some days on our journey that I thought we would never get a handle on it but when people tell me I can't do something (several trainers told me to give her up to the police force as she was too strong for me and I would never make a pet dog out of her) my determination kicks in.

I will never take Skye to a leash-free park or beach but she does have other dogs that she "plays" with on a regular basis.

I should also add that Skye is now trained in a group situation on a martingale collar. She will always have a reactive streak if pushed by another dog but the bond we have created over the past eighteen months is nothing short of awesome compared to where we have come from and a simple "leave it" command is enough to stop any unwanted behaviour.

Hang on in there - change your behaviourist if you are not seeing any improvement or getting any encouragement. You can buy all the books in the world but to spend money on a good behaviourist with an open mind to training is, in my opinion, the only way to go with dogs like ours.

[megan_]

I do believe that hankdog has consulted with Steve and is seeing a trainer in their area too with Steve's knowledge.

I don't believe that hankdog takes their dog to offleash parks. Rather, they are focusing on control when in the vicinity of other dogs.

[Skye GSD]

I do believe that hankdog has consulted with Steve and is seeing a trainer in their area too with Steve's knowledge.

I don't believe that hankdog takes their dog to offleash parks. Rather, they are focusing on control when in the vicinity of other dogs.

My post was not intended as an advertisment but merely to show where we have come from. I commend hankdog and others on here that are seeking to improve their dogs (and their own) lives and sometimes that journey takes us in many directions.

I was also not referring to hankdog taking Jake to offleash parks - merely that it is something I can never do with Skye.

If there was any suggestion I would give it would be to eliminate all contact with other dogs until the focus/obedience has been trained at home, front yard, down the road, park with no distractions then the outskirts of a training club - all this takes months of training but is totally worth it in the end.

[hankdog]

Yep he was under Steve and has a prong which does wonders and we moved to a closer trainer because I need more hands on help. If you saw him away from other dogs you would think he was reasonably well trained. I suppose not actually knowing any other reactive dogs and thinking how much he has improved since I got him it was unsettling to hear he is still extremely reactive. I asked for an expert opinion and I do value my trainers experience so it's just hard to know when you cross the line between determined and foolhardy. But thankyou Skye for replying because it is comforting to hear from others who have been through and come out the other side.

[Staffyluv]

I had a bit of a break through this morning with Ziggy..

A guy walking his 2 staffords, stopped by me and to offer some advice with Ziggy (he was having another tanty cause the dogs were there and I wouldn't go near them)..

What a great guy he was. He used his 2 to show me what he does when his bitch is reactive.

So I held his boy and he walked his girl past us, all the time blocking her. She was walking against the fence and he was between us and her. Every time she tried to get around him, he would stop and put himself between her and us. They have done it a lot but he only had to do it twice before she just walked past (albeit, giving me the evil eye)..

Then he let me walk past him and his 2 dogs a few times, having Zig against the fence and me blocking him..

Crikey, it worked - the third time past, he walked on because he must have realised I wasn't going to let him near the other dogs.

We tried it again past a little JR that he is allowed to say hi to and it worked again...

No tantrumm, no loud screaming and no pulling..

Now I just need to make sure there is always a fence or a building that I can use when we walk..h

We have also been using his new martingale collar from Ruthless instead of the sporn harness.. Just trying different things to work on the pulling..

He seems to sort one thing out and start another..

[Tassie]

Nice to have a bit of a win, anyway. staffyluv.

Yes, the putting the dog on the other side of you - or you between the dog and what the dog wants is quite powerful - I'll someimtes accompany it with saying to myself and the dog - "Nothing to do with you - trot on" - or something similar - that's for me more han for the dog - helps remind me to stay focussed and calm LOL.

That was nice of that guy too. :)

[Staffyluv]

Nice to have a bit of a win, anyway. staffyluv.

Yes, the putting the dog on the other side of you - or you between the dog and what the dog wants is quite powerful - I'll someimtes accompany it with saying to myself and the dog - "Nothing to do with you - trot on" - or something similar - that's for me more han for the dog - helps remind me to stay focussed and calm LOL.

That was nice of that guy too. :)

It was nice of him.. A few years ago I helped him out one day when he just had his girl.. he needed someone to hold her.

We have crossed paths many times over the years and his dogs are really lovely dogs..

I used to use the walk on command with my old boy and I have been trying it with Zig but he just doesn't seem to get some things - he is definitely more of a challenge to train than my old stafford was.. But then, we had the old boy from a tiny pup (about 5 weeks old as his mother walked away from the litter and wouldn't have anything to do with them). Zig was at least 6 month old when we got him and had NO training at all. He wasn't even house broken.

I think I will be practising this exercise until he learns that is the way it will always be...

[chuckandsteve]

So my DA dog has been doing really well at obediance. He passed straight through begginers, class 1 and nearly class 2 first shot (they were iffy so I told them to fail him as I liked the class and he is there to get use to dogs not get in the obediance ring anyway).

Until the last 2 weeks. He has just lost it started barking and carrying on. First week I thought he is just having a off week but then he did it again yesterday. I couldn't even get within 50 metres of the class and 3 weeks ago he was sitting in the middle of the pack with only about 2 barks the whole hour.

I don't think it has been really aggressive just seems to be so excited. He has been worse on his walks too. He is always ultra alert and doesn't want to go down the streets that have dogs that bark from behind fences.

He is going back to the private trainer but I wondered if anyone had any ideas in the mean time?

[megan_]

There is a thread with a fair bit of useful advice (I think it was started by TheCheekyMonster?) Have you tried "Look at That" (LAT)?

[chuckandsteve]

No I haven't tried LAT. I use the look command and make him have eye contact with me, but I might ask the trainer a bit about it as he should be having a session this weekend.

I have always found it odd he is better at training than on his walks, but I put it down to to him being rushed and bitten by a pug one walk, and nothing bad has happened at trianing. Although 3 weeks ago they had us walk through the class 4 in off lead drop stays and one broke as we passed, that upset him but he didn't act out too much so maybe that was it.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

hankdog and Staffyluv, you guys are doing SOOOO well and should be so proud of yourselves!!! Dog training is always trial and error as no two dogs are alike. No trainer knows your dog like you do. Go you good things ! :) xx

A poster mentioned further up keeping the dog in training far away from humans and other dogs until they learn to focus on you (paraphrasing, forgive me). I've noticed now that Scooter is ready (physically) to exercise again that he reacts MORE to his normal stressors than he ever did before. This just tells me that he NEEDS to be around those things and shown how to deal with them. Dogs will need to be proofed at some stage, and if you're able to control the environment, why not? We are at the stage where, if we see a person or dog on the horizon, we turn and walk a different way. He can see them but looks to me for guidance, and he's starting to trust that I will lead him in the right direction every time :) His reactivity toward people walking past the house and the dog next door (props to the owner who has FINALLY filled in the rest of the gaps in the fence!) has decreased significantly, and I am so proud of him.

On another note - having a normal dog really helps you realise when your NQR dog is giving you cues. Rudy has helped me learn so much about Scooter. It's quite amazing!