Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Have you had him assessed by a behaviourist PA?

Yes. 2 vet behaviourists and currently seeing a highly regarded small dog specialist. I've made a lot of mistakes due to bad advice and am terrified to screw up even more

Ness, he's had his leg checked and manipulated and its healing really nicely (thank god) - bloods are clear, he's super healthy. This is really all my fault...

PA, I spent a lot of time thinking that Kenzie's reactivity was all my fault. And yes, partly it was. But it is very rarely ALL our fault. As one of my friends kept saing to me a dogs behaviour is a combination of genes plus environment. With Kenzie I kept blaming myself because while she had a great first 6 months with me (heaps of socialisation, training, etc, etc) after that age lots of things happened in my life which meant that I couldn't focus on her, didn't know how to deal with issues she was presenting me and I was possibly at my most anxious and stressed point of life. But they were the environmental bits, she had to have some sort of genetic predisposition to her behaviour for those things to create the problems she had/has.

So yes, a little bit of it will be about you but there is also the bit that you have no control over because Scooter will have some sort of predisposition to this behaviour in his genetic make-up. Unfortunately his environment has enabled his reactive behaviour. But as I have learnt it's not a closed door and improvement is possible. It sounds like you've recognised that he isn't going to be like all the other dogs, but remember you can make life more enjoyable for the both of you through training just don't lose hope for that.

18 months ago I thought that I was never going to have the performance dog that I wanted because she struggled to go for a walk down the street - I now have a dog who is working as an education dog with groups of strangers a few times a week, she can work off leash around (some) other dogs at agility training and on the weekend she got her Rally Novice title (and in that managed an environment with strange dogs in close proximity and also a cricket game in the background!!). So it is possible but it does take time.

I saw that you were thinking of getting another dog. I have to say since Hamish has come along I have seen some changes in Kenz. She is a lot more cuddly. She seems a lot more confident when we are out. She is demonstrating much better self control (it's almost like she's thinking "I have to be the grown up and show him what to do"!!). I have no idea if it is coincidence that she had a bit of a click with her behaviour management when Hamish came along or if he has actually made the difference. At the moment I don't care because it's a good difference!

But keep working with Scooter and remember he just is the dog he is and do what you feel is going to help him best.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

And everyone else... I only read the last 3 or 4 pages but it sounds like there are some great successes going on here!!! Well done!!!!! How nice is it to have people who actually understand your dog rather than just thinking that they're out of control!?

[BC Crazy]

I love having this thread for that exact reason Pretty Miss Emma. I have learnt so much from others as well. It is like having a support group which you really need at times with our beloved reactive kids.

They can really test you at times but the rewards are watching them move forward emotionally. Brings me to tears every time

Edited November 13, 2012 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

It's amazing how much training zonks a dog, Saturday afternoon after our obedience lesson I was kind of tempted to check for a pulse... Zoomies and walks works as a great energy release, but an hour of trying to behave is utterly exhausting.

I found a really great youtube clip on the internets the other day you guys might be interested in seeing. Brief synopsis - Very, very fear aggressive dog at the start, very polite, nicely social dog by the end. Particularly interesting to me was in the pack socialisation parts of it, the dogs were never actually playing. All those dogs, all interacting nicely, but obviously all taught not to take off lead time with a bunch of other dogs as an opportunity for rough & tumble.

Gee Wobbly, that's impressive work, isn't it? Wish there was a training group around here cause I would have my Stella there in a flash to help her gain some confidence. What a wonderful turn around for that boy

Edited November 13, 2012 by BC Crazy

[SammieS]

It's amazing how much training zonks a dog, Saturday afternoon after our obedience lesson I was kind of tempted to check for a pulse... Zoomies and walks works as a great energy release, but an hour of trying to behave is utterly exhausting.

I found a really great youtube clip on the internets the other day you guys might be interested in seeing. Brief synopsis - Very, very fear aggressive dog at the start, very polite, nicely social dog by the end. Particularly interesting to me was in the pack socialisation parts of it, the dogs were never actually playing. All those dogs, all interacting nicely, but obviously all taught not to take off lead time with a bunch of other dogs as an opportunity for rough & tumble.

Gee Wobbly, that's impressive work, isn't it? Wish there was a training group around here cause I would have my Stella there in a flash to help her gain some confidence. What a wonderful turn around for that boy

Hi Everyone, Just popping in... this thread has moved quickly! I need to go back and read the last couple of pages.

The youtube link was fabulous, if they had a place like that here, I'd be there in a flash! If only K9 Pro were in QLD!

We tried acupuncture for Asti on Saturday - mainly to ensure she's in alignment and her muscles are working evenly. Whilst we were there I mentioned her behaviour wasn't getting any better so he placed several needles into her calming points... she spent the rest of the weekend in a strange calm daze! it was almost like she was drugged up! even visitors said she seems so out of character... maybe acupuncture is one option moving forward for her. As anyone else tried it?

[kayla1]

Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I'm curious as to why some dogs react more in certain situations and not others.

As an example, Annie is more likely to react if she is walked at a local park or familiar area, yet is pretty good when I take her somewhere completely different (eg when I took her to training or other dog meets). I'm wondering if this is related to confidence, perhaps in the different environment she is not as confident so less likely to react, and more confident in familiar surroundings so more likely to react?

I should add Annie reacts primarily to movement (birds, dogs etc), so it's not fear based, which I guess would change it.

Or perhaps it's not confidence as such, but something else?

[Cosmolo]

I think while it can be confidence related it can also be related to expectations and anticipation. When an animal is familiar with an environment they develop a set of expectations as to how that environment should be- what objects are in what position, what animals they encounter etc. Those expectations can either lead to anticipation- therefore the dog is already going down the path of reactivity before anything happens OR when the animals expectations are violated (eg- they expect to see a certain 'thing' in that environment and they see something completely different) they become reactive for that reason.

[Allywil]

Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I'm curious as to why some dogs react more in certain situations and not others.

As an example, Annie is more likely to react if she is walked at a local park or familiar area, yet is pretty good when I take her somewhere completely different (eg when I took her to training or other dog meets). I'm wondering if this is related to confidence, perhaps in the different environment she is not as confident so less likely to react, and more confident in familiar surroundings so more likely to react?

I should add Annie reacts primarily to movement (birds, dogs etc), so it's not fear based, which I guess would change it.

Or perhaps it's not confidence as such, but something else?

Generally speaking, a fear aggressive dog will be more aggressive in unfamilar territory and act more aggressively from feeling insecure of their surroundings. A dog that is more aggressive in familar territory an old trainer told me once is like an extension of territorial aggression as if they are confident and cocky in a territory familiar to them with a perception of who belongs in that famililar territory and who doesn't.......makes sense I guess? Performance issues are noticed along these lines with sport dogs who perform beautifully on their training ground, but take them to a different field to compete and they are off their game a bit until confidence is regained.

Another common one is two dogs who live together and are bomb proof in the backyard, great mates and love each other. Take them out in unfamilar territory together and one will pick a fight with his mate and a scrap will develop why are these two dogs who get along great fighting all of a sudden? One of the two will be overwhelmed and insecure being in unfamilar territory that triggers the reactivity. That's one theory anyway

[kayla1]

Thanks for replying Cosmolo and Allywil.

Yes I see how it would be different for a fearful dog reacting.

Interesting, I think I see both examples of expectations.

Violation of expectations - we were at the park the other day and there was a car parked where it shouldn't have been (where cars don't usually park), so the dogs reacted by barking at it. Or at home, Annie will often bark at things that are out of place eg a spider on the wall, clothes that have fallen off the washing line etc. Is that what you mean by reacting to a violation of expectations?

Expectations leading to anticipation, which explains why Annie reacts more when we walk on the golf course - lots of birds, she expects to see them, so she is already in that state ready to react. Using LAT has been good, and she does defer to me quite a bit now, but it's much harder for her to focus when the rainbow lorikeets are flapping about in front teasing her. :laugh: But I guess it will always be more difficult in that environment when the dog is already anticipating reacting.

[Wobbly]

Wow, what an incredible transformation for Justice. Simply amazing Snook. I don't know whether I would have believed such a turnaround could be possible except for reading your journey with Justice. Truly amazing.

I have a friend with a fear reactive dog, the dog's reactivity is a result of a bad experience when he was younger, I wonder if they could effect the same transformation as you have? I will try to get them to read this thread to be inspired by your dedication and incredible success with Justice.

[Allywil]

ETA: I just wanted to add that I think no matter how much progress you make with a dog's reactivity and how well it gets turned around, you still have to behave as though you have a reactive dog and not get complacent. My job will be to make sure Justice isn't put in to any situations that could set him back and to ensure he only ever gets to play or socialise with friendly, well-balanced dogs in controlled settings. I'll never let him romp around in the park with random dogs or take him to places where there's a high likelihood of off leash dogs racing up to him, as these are the situations that created his reactivity in the first place.

Very wise words Snook, you can never fix reactive dogs 100% and in the right circumstances with enough pressure they will revert to their default reactive behaviour. Although vast improvement can be made, a bit like an alcoholic I guess, you can't expose them to the demon freely without being mindful of the potential consequence. You can set a reactive dog back faster than you improved them from a real trigger situation......knowing the triggers to avoid is good practice :)

[megan_]

Well done snook. Lucy is such a territorial butch I'm sure shed have a kaniption (sp) with another dog (other than fergs) in the car.

[bronsoonWA]

I have been following this thread for sometime, even before registering!

I am experiencing similar problems and would love a bit of guidance. Apologies for the long back story; my question is where to start/what to focus on as I realise I am the weak link here.

I have a 2 year old pit bull rescued 8 months ago from a shelter - no back story. He is quite an anxious dog and was frightened of his own shadow when we got him. Now he is much more calm and confident at home and with our other dog - but still quite fearful on walks (tail between legs, ears back unless stopping to listen). 2 months ago during an on leash late night -avoiding other dogs- walk he was attacked by another dog (6 puncture wounds, no stitches) and now he is reactive to all strange dogs (he is very very preoccupied at a distance, he stares and i can't break it) and if they get too close he will growl and lunge. He has also just started barking with hackles up at passing dogs when he has supervised play in our front yard.

Now, I have had two private sessions with a dog behaviourist, (Kathy Kopellis McLeod for those in Perth). Which was great for me to learn the basics of counter conditioning. I haven't seen a difference him yet. I actually think he is getting worse; but it may be that I am reading him better and so realising he is at his threshold more often.

He is a placid angel inside the house, so calm and very lazy. His basic obedience is OK I am working hard but he can do sit, stay (but only for 2 steps away) and down (but I have to almost touch the ground with my hand) and will willingly do it for kibble or a pat. As soon as we get outside our fence-line, I can't get him to do anything; not even for baked liver/sausage/cheese.

I have spent many hours reading everything I can get my 'eyes' on but I'm having trouble taking lessons from inside with no distractions to the next step outside which is seemingly too much. I think I need to teach leave-it and look at me; but I can't get him to do that outside our yard.

At the moment I am walking our neighbourhood plying him with liver/cheese when we pass a dog barking behind a fence or on the other side of the street. Most of the time he wont even take food, he just stares. I do a u-turn and pass again with a wider girth or block his sight with my body until the other dog passes as best I can. If we're inside our yard and he barks I just tell him it's time to come inside and he follows.

There are lots of things I would love to work on (Look at me on leash, leave-it, sit stay in presence of other dogs, not barking at passing dogs) but I feel very overwhelmed and like I need a starting point.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

Hi BronsoonWA and welcome to our lil slice o dog frustration paradise!

Reading your post, 2 things jump out at me.

1. His obedience is nowhere near proofed enough inside your house for you to start him outside. Dogs do not generalise very well and if he needs that much encouragement to perform the basics, you need to send him back to 'kindergarten' and keep working on him until he's snappy and responsive inside. After that I would take him in the backyard (or front yard if he's more comfortable there, Scooter HATES the backyard cos he was attacked out there) and start from scratch.

2. If he won't take food he is way over threshold and you need to reel him back in. He needs you to look after him, and that means you need to remove him from the situation far enough back that he can begin to relax enough.

More experienced people will come in here, but I very much recommend that you keep working with a trainer. Hope this helped a bit and feel free to ask all the questions you want!

edit: thinking about it a little bit, if he's that overwhelmed as soon as you step outside, have you got a front window facing the street that you can work him at, so he can still SEE outside but not actually be there, which seems to be too much for him? Or work him on a lead inside the house with the front door open?

Edited November 18, 2012 by Panzer Attack!

[bronsoonWA]

Thank you Panzer and Snook so much for taking the time to reply. In a nutshell you have fixed my problem which was working out what to work on first. I know it must appear really simple to others. I have read that obedience is the foundation to any behaviour, but I always skipped over those bits thinking he was trained 'enough' just because he sits and comes when called (inside). Also, our behavourist didn't mention any obedience. I had to say he doesn't know what 'leave it' means when she suggested I tell him to 'leave it'.

Last night I read and printed Dr Karen Overall's Relaxation protocol, which is basically a 15 day program with what appears to be obedience exercises but it trains the dog to relax and to be able to learn commands with distractions. I have watched a few videos of her on Youtube and I like her style (scientific, nothing is absolute).

He needs you to look after him, and that means you need to remove him from the situation far enough back that he can begin to relax enough.

I know this isn't exactly what you were saying, but I have been really concerned since he was attacked that it was my fault (in his eyes) for not protecting him. Do you think is this an issue I need to 'fix' since I have been continuing to expose him to stressful situations?

If you're happy to list the books you've read so far I'm sure a number of us would be able to make some great suggestions to add to them as I'm no doubt not the only one who's been through stacks on this subject. Please also don't hesitate to ask as many questions as you've got but also remember that only a few of the people who come in here are professional dog trainers and the rest of us are just giving advice based on our own experience.

So far I have bought and read Patricia McConnell's Leader of the pack and I have "Feisty Fido" and "Cautious Canine" on the way. I have also just seen she has one on dog-dog reactivity. Other reading has been on the net and includes online info and youtube videos (i try to only read info provided by people with appropriate qualifications) karen London, Karen Overall, Kathy Sdao. And probably others I can't remember.

You are very correct Snook, I am hugely overwhelmed. Sometimes I actually feel quite emotional that I'm not doing enough for him. This I think is actually escalated as I read more, the more I learn the more I realise there is to learn!

One of the biggest issues I find is when I read, I understand, but when I try it with him and if it doesn't work I think "well what now, it didn't say what to do if he does xyz".

For the record, I intend to enrol in Kathy's Reactive Rover classes, but they're off for the summer so I need an approach for the mean time.

Thank you, I think it is the support that is most beneficial.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

Firstly, great book list! I have recommended most of them to another member in this thread who I'm sure will say the same LOL. I'm a huge fan of the Relaxation Protocol, it teaches self-restraint as well as everything else, which is SO important in a reactive dog.

Please try not to be too hard on yourself, the breed can unfortunately be prone to reactivity, and you're taking appropriate steps and recognize the problem which is soooo important! :)

I know this isn't exactly what you were saying, but I have been really concerned since he was attacked that it was my fault (in his eyes) for not protecting him. Do you think is this an issue I need to 'fix' since I have been continuing to expose him to stressful situations?

I (and this is just my uneducated opinion!) don't believe dogs think like that. When Scooter got attacked the first time I agonized about it for weeks (the dog next door ripped a fence post out and tried to drag him through when he was young ) and blamed myself for not protecting him, but guilt is a useless emotion, and how could either of us have predicted what happened? You're still his pal at the end of the day, you feed him, cuddle him, care for him... And luckily for us, even if they DID think that way, they would forgive us anyway!

The most important thing you can do is learn from what happened, make sure it doesn't happen again, and build up your (both of you) confidence through training and bonding. :)

Edited November 19, 2012 by Panzer Attack!

[hankdog]

Hey Bronsoon I'll just add that it can seem overwhelming but you just have to keep going and then one day little bits start making sense. Not everything works for all dogs but if you work with your dog a lot you learn about your own dog and start to figure out how he learns and what will work with him. He's probably just as confused as you. The need to excercise without seeing other dogs is a big problem. I have used office parks on the weekend, next to the highway because there are cars to shield your dog from seeing other dogs and pretty much just think of unpleasant places to walk a dog and go there. Late night is when other reactive dogs come out, not a good time. I have also run him around shopping center carparks at odd times... welcome to the world of crazy! Council bin day is a bonus, can walk bin to bin.

Edited November 20, 2012 by hankdog

[bronsoonWA]

Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt - this book is worth its weight in gold if for nothing other than the Look at That (LAT) game which is the primary tool I've used in counter-conditioning Justice and it's the first thing our behaviourist taught me other than getting me to reinforce "look", "let's go" and "leave it" which we'd already started working on.

Thanks a lot for the list, i'm looking into them. Interestingly, Patricia McConnell recommends LAT for shy dogs who just want to hide from other dogs, and Look at Me for dogs like Oscar who stiffen up and stare. Since my first post, I have seen improvement. Previously all I did was make a fuss if there is a dog "oh look, how exciting a puppy, yay isn't this fun" and give him some treats. Now I do that combined with finding and respecting his threshold distance which has meant that In the past 5-6 times I have had him out and there did happen to be dogs at some stage, he never had a reaction, just a stare which i responded to with a happy "let's go" and some treats when he looked at me or the new direction.

Hankdog, I've been having fun finding novel ways of exercising him too. I've been driving him to local parks at sunrise for runs on the lead and also very early morning plays on playgrounds (on lead). he loves jumping over things and running up the stairs to slides, very good exercise for him. Yesterday I found a fully fenced children's play area which is amazing for him to be off lead. I went at 5:30 am to beat the children - it specifically says no dogs but I walked them first for the 'toilet'.

I tried an obstacle type course in the backyard, he wasn't interested. I also tried a flirt pole but he's too weary of the pole being above him.

I've also been working on obedience, specifically stay - in 3 days he will sit and wait while his dinner is put on the ground and wont start until i say OK. I'm so proud of him. I can also walk around him in a stay and get about 5 steps away with back turned before he stands up. It just goes to show how much potential they do have, we just need to unlock it.

[ChristineX]

Hi Bronsoon, welcome to the club! I'm a longterm client of Kathy's, so if you have any questions, just ask! And yes, dogs are amazing once you start working with them, :) , I would not be without my two, even Duke (Kathy's client)!

A book to add to everyone's list - Terrier-Centric Dog Training - from Tenacious to Tremendous by Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell. I thought it would be about terrier oriented training, but 80% of the book is devoted to management of reactivity!

One of the interesting ideas is to teach your dog to move from your left side while walking, around your back to your right side to continue walking - in order to gain that little bit more distance from the object of reactivity!

[hankdog]

I have had Saaba envy but now Jake has a Saaba. We've switched trainers to a nearby trainer (with Steve's understanding) since Jake has started being able to see some dogs I wanted to make sure I didn't make mistakes. Vicki is only a twenty minute drive away so we can go see her once a week . This was our second time seeing Chilli her border collie, it's so awesome to see him in action he just gives Jake all the calming signals and doesn't show the tiniest bit of startle or unhappiness. Now that's good training. Last week we just practiced walking towards him and getting Jake to look away for a treat. With Vicki's excellent timing Jake very quickly learned to look away for a treat, I tend to overpay Jake and talk to much and this confuses him, he remembered all week and has looked at me for approaching people and also on our practice friend dogs. Today we worked on trying to turn him away smoothly, he can look at dogs but when you try turn him and walk away he goes off planet. This will be a useful skill because dogs walking towards us are a huge problem and when we try get away he often needs to be dragged away barking so a nice smooth exit will be a lovely skill.