megan_ Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) My dog is small. Any dig that she could fight I could take on with a few kicks. Anything that I couldnt handle would harm her anyway. The point if the muzzle is to avoid that though. Relaxed me = much more relaxed Lucy. Edited January 10, 2012 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My dog is small. Any dig that she could fight I could take on with a few kicks. Anything that I couldnt handle would harm her anyway. The point if the muzzle is to avoid that though. Relaxed me = much more relaxed Lucy. Fair enough, thanks for sharing, I respect your view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It is easier to break up a dog fight when you only have one lot of teeth to deal with. Of course no one wants to get into this situation but in the event that you do, i can't imagine why anyone would want two dogs potentially latched on instead of one. Muzzles ease owners stress. A stressed owner decreases a reactive dogs threshold significantly- we want to increase the dogs threshold so we need to deal with every factor affecting it. It is flawed to either ignore an owners emotional state or expect them to change it quickly- it just doesn't work. Owners emotional states (like dogs) take time to change and in some cases, muzzles help in the meantime. In addition to the other suggestions- i think its important that if a reactive dog has some 'dog friends' that thet do get regular interactions with them if possible. Regular predatory drive rewards can also help to stimulate and tire a reactive dog. Edited January 10, 2012 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It is easier to break up a dog fight when you only have one lot of teeth to deal with. Of course no one wants to get into this situation but in the event that you do, i can't imagine why anyone would want two dogs potentially latched on instead of one. Muzzles ease owners stress. A stressed owner decreases a reactive dogs threshold significantly- we want to increase the dogs threshold so we need to deal with every factor affecting it. It is flawed to either ignore an owners emotional state or expect them to change it quickly- it just doesn't work. Owners emotional states (like dogs) take time to change and in some cases, muzzles help in the meantime. In addition to the other suggestions- i think its important that if a reactive dog has some 'dog friends' that thet do get regular interactions with them if possible. Regular predatory drive rewards can also help to stimulate and tire a reactive dog. Simple Cosmolo, the dog that gets latched onto is your muzzled dog which can also come with severe injury to your dog, why on earth would anyone want their own dog injured by an off leash dog when it could potentially diffuse the situation being unmuzzled and come through it unscathed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 A dog intent on doing damage to your dog is going to do so regardless of whether your dog has a muzzle or not- severe injury is possible anyway. Just because a dog does not have a muzzle does not mean they will at all be able to diffuse a situation. Having a muzzle means that the owner (who is responsible for dealing with the situation- not the dog) has a better chance of splitting up the dogs more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Posted by Megan As my post said, these are ideas to help exercise your dog while it is being rehabilitated. Dogs with issues still need mental and physical stimulation. I am sorry Megan, I don't mean to be difficult. I guess I am confused about the idea of rehabilitation and the idea of mental and physical exercise being two seperate things. To my way of thinking a structured obedience program provides both the mental and physical needs of the dog whilst at the same time solving the problem. I mean if the behavorist is only treating the DA problem itself and not the whole dog (meaning the mental and physical needs of the dog) at the same time, then I would have reason to doubt their value. But that's just me. In my experience, all the obedience and agility training in the world will do little to calm a dog's anxiety and reactiveness, particularly if it is fear aggression. Yes, they may be less 'wired' if they are tired, but the learned responses to other dogs remain a safety issue. Some dogs remain this way for life - but they still need exercise don't they? I think this is a great thread. Things I use with my reactive dog include: 1. cycling with her on our walkydog along a bicycle path (she remains very focussed on running, gets loads of exercise, can pass other dogs safely because she can't get to them) - but this might not work as safely with a large, strong dog and of course it's not legal to use on your local streets which is a shame IMO 2. fetch the frisbee on the long line at a local unfenced park. No-one else seems to take their dogs there because it's near a busy road - we go there, use the long line and have it all to ourselves 3. agree with the muzzle although I have always felt worried about it for some reason. Makes the dog look like Hannibal Lector. But seriously I need to get over this hang-up because it is a very sensible precaution Looking forward to reading ideas from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkes Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My dogs love targetting but I have never really known how to go beyond the touch nose or paw to object. We did get to post it notes on walls but since then I haven't known what to do. Targeting gets them thinking about the task, rather than reacting, and it's simple so it's worth getting creative with it. One exercise I use in my reactive and aggressive dogs classes is to have two dogs target cones spaced some distance apart. We can bring them in closer over time. For safety, leash length can be set appropriately. You have to keep them busy with this, no idle time. Take them out of the car, do the exercise (however many reps you have decided the dogs will do before they get bored), then back in the car. I've also used a wire mesh fence for protected contact. Have the dogs target the fence post on opposite sides of the fence. Use only where appropriate (for e.g dog is advanced in behaviour mod, but has a bite history). Don't do the "he's really good today, so I'll push it too far" thing! Ahhh, thats a good one. Thanks Aidan. I have a new 7mth old dog in foster care who is not aggressive but has no manners with other dogs and can escalate when she is told off. She started off barking at everything that moved but now we have got it to her just barking at other dogs. I've been using targetting as a distractor for the first couple of days just to teach her to ignore other dogs. It seems to be working.\ She is also massively active so it is helping to tire her out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It is easier to break up a dog fight when you only have one lot of teeth to deal with. Of course no one wants to get into this situation but in the event that you do, i can't imagine why anyone would want two dogs potentially latched on instead of one. Muzzles ease owners stress. A stressed owner decreases a reactive dogs threshold significantly- we want to increase the dogs threshold so we need to deal with every factor affecting it. It is flawed to either ignore an owners emotional state or expect them to change it quickly- it just doesn't work. Owners emotional states (like dogs) take time to change and in some cases, muzzles help in the meantime. In addition to the other suggestions- i think its important that if a reactive dog has some 'dog friends' that thet do get regular interactions with them if possible. Regular predatory drive rewards can also help to stimulate and tire a reactive dog. Simple Cosmolo, the dog that gets latched onto is your muzzled dog which can also come with severe injury to your dog, why on earth would anyone want their own dog injured by an off leash dog when it could potentially diffuse the situation being unmuzzled and come through it unscathed Seeing a muzzle can also motivate some idiots to get control of their off leash dog, or at least makes them realise when you say your dog needs space that you are indicating that your dog bloody well needs space!!! (as opposed to the usual response that their dog is friendly!) In my case a muzzle can keep people away from my dog who is scared of people :D He has seen a behaviourist but I would still like people to give us space and a muzzle achieves that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 A dog intent on doing damage to your dog is going to do so regardless of whether your dog has a muzzle or not- severe injury is possible anyway. Just because a dog does not have a muzzle does not mean they will at all be able to diffuse a situation. Having a muzzle means that the owner (who is responsible for dealing with the situation- not the dog) has a better chance of splitting up the dogs more quickly. Who told you that Cosmolo Haven't you ever seen a dog take on more than it can chew, turn tail and run away, many DA dogs are fear biters acting on a learned behaviour when they charge at other dogs aggressively? But the difference is with a muzzled dog, it's ability to fight is compromised to diffuse a situation where an unmuzzled dog isn't. Your own dog muzzled isn't safer in a fight with a dog who isn't muzzled and is more vulnerable to cop a real hiding, for my dog, I don't want that to happen if unmuzzled provides a better chance at survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Imace - cosmolo is a respected trainer. I was advised to use a muzzle by steve from k9pro - again, very highly regarded. What cosmolo has written sounds like common sense - surely you'd have to agree that, in the very rare event of a fight, pulling away one fighting dog would be easier than pulling away two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 A dog intent on doing damage to your dog is going to do so regardless of whether your dog has a muzzle or not- severe injury is possible anyway. Just because a dog does not have a muzzle does not mean they will at all be able to diffuse a situation. Having a muzzle means that the owner (who is responsible for dealing with the situation- not the dog) has a better chance of splitting up the dogs more quickly. Who told you that Cosmolo Haven't you ever seen a dog take on more than it can chew, turn tail and run away, many DA dogs are fear biters acting on a learned behaviour when they charge at other dogs aggressively? But the difference is with a muzzled dog, it's ability to fight is compromised to diffuse a situation where an unmuzzled dog isn't. Your own dog muzzled isn't safer in a fight with a dog who isn't muzzled and is more vulnerable to cop a real hiding, for my dog, I don't want that to happen if unmuzzled provides a better chance at survival. No responsible owner or trainer would put any dog, let alone a reactive one in a situation where it had to fight for it's survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 A dog intent on doing damage to your dog is going to do so regardless of whether your dog has a muzzle or not - severe injury is possible anyway. Just because a dog does not have a muzzle does not mean they will at all be able to diffuse a situation. Having a muzzle means that the owner (who is responsible for dealing with the situation- not the dog) has a better chance of splitting up the dogs more quickly. Who told you that Cosmolo Haven't you ever seen a dog take on more than it can chew, turn tail and run away, many DA dogs are fear biters acting on a learned behaviour when they charge at other dogs aggressively? But the difference is with a muzzled dog, it's ability to fight is compromised to diffuse a situation where an unmuzzled dog isn't. Your own dog muzzled isn't safer in a fight with a dog who isn't muzzled and is more vulnerable to cop a real hiding, for my dog, I don't want that to happen if unmuzzled provides a better chance at survival. No responsible owner or trainer would put any dog, let alone a reactive one in a situation where it had to fight for it's survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've copped a lot of flak for using muzzles before. My own dog was never attacked while wearing a muzzle, her body language was not attenuated by the muzzle significantly and she could still hold her space. Other dogs don't understand what the muzzle is for, some are even more cautious because they don't know what it is; i.e they don't see the muzzle and decide to take advantage of the wearer. I use a muzzle when I either have no option for safety, or when the dog doesn't really need a muzzle but has a history which makes it prudent. My late GSD had an enormous amount of freedom thanks to a muzzle and drag-line. She got to enjoy just being a dog without posing a significant threat to others. I could train her to cope with things that would have carried too much risk without a muzzle, and in later years I was confident that she didn't need the muzzle thanks to that training. In the unlikely event that another dog had attacked her, I have little doubt that she would win, but then it would be my word against the other dog owner's. I was confident that I could remove an attacking dog from her with minimal harm, and would recommend that all dog owners learn how to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 A dog intent on doing damage to your dog is going to do so regardless of whether your dog has a muzzle or not- severe injury is possible anyway. Just because a dog does not have a muzzle does not mean they will at all be able to diffuse a situation. Having a muzzle means that the owner (who is responsible for dealing with the situation- not the dog) has a better chance of splitting up the dogs more quickly. Who told you that Cosmolo Haven't you ever seen a dog take on more than it can chew, turn tail and run away, many DA dogs are fear biters acting on a learned behaviour when they charge at other dogs aggressively? But the difference is with a muzzled dog, it's ability to fight is compromised to diffuse a situation where an unmuzzled dog isn't. Your own dog muzzled isn't safer in a fight with a dog who isn't muzzled and is more vulnerable to cop a real hiding, for my dog, I don't want that to happen if unmuzzled provides a better chance at survival. No responsible owner or trainer would put any dog, let alone a reactive one in a situation where it had to fight for it's survival. Of course not, but an owner/trainer's resposibility can't control the actions of someone else's dog, a roaming DA dog suddenly appears charging towards your leashed dog, what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Then you either shoo the other dog away or you are involved in a dog fight. Has happened to me - my dog ended up in hospital She only survived because some people came to help me get the other dog off mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've copped a lot of flak for using muzzles before. My own dog was never attacked while wearing a muzzle, her body language was not attenuated by the muzzle significantly and she could still hold her space. Other dogs don't understand what the muzzle is for, some are even more cautious because they don't know what it is; i.e they don't see the muzzle and decide to take advantage of the wearer. I use a muzzle when I either have no option for safety, or when the dog doesn't really need a muzzle but has a history which makes it prudent. My late GSD had an enormous amount of freedom thanks to a muzzle and drag-line. She got to enjoy just being a dog without posing a significant threat to others. I could train her to cope with things that would have carried too much risk without a muzzle, and in later years I was confident that she didn't need the muzzle thanks to that training. In the unlikely event that another dog had attacked her, I have little doubt that she would win, but then it would be my word against the other dog owner's. I was confident that I could remove an attacking dog from her with minimal harm, and would recommend that all dog owners learn how to do this. That's your experience shared fair enough, but what you have experienced is not what will happen across the board in all cases. I know of a DA Rottweiler who suffered a terrible leg injury from a smallish DA dog, had the Rotty been unmuzzled, he would have easily taken the other dog out given the size difference instead of having severed tendons in his front leg as a result. The vet believed the muzzle intesified the injury as all the Rotty could do was tear away his leg trying to free himself with no teeth to fight off the offending dog adequately. I am merely pointing out that a general feeling to muzzle a DA dog means it's all good, is not necessarily the case in all situations. A muzzled dog can be similar to a boxer stepping into the ring with hands tied behind his back is what I am referring to in a volitile situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) A dog intent on doing damage to your dog is going to do so regardless of whether your dog has a muzzle or not- severe injury is possible anyway. Just because a dog does not have a muzzle does not mean they will at all be able to diffuse a situation. Having a muzzle means that the owner (who is responsible for dealing with the situation- not the dog) has a better chance of splitting up the dogs more quickly. Who told you that Cosmolo Haven't you ever seen a dog take on more than it can chew, turn tail and run away, many DA dogs are fear biters acting on a learned behaviour when they charge at other dogs aggressively? But the difference is with a muzzled dog, it's ability to fight is compromised to diffuse a situation where an unmuzzled dog isn't. Your own dog muzzled isn't safer in a fight with a dog who isn't muzzled and is more vulnerable to cop a real hiding, for my dog, I don't want that to happen if unmuzzled provides a better chance at survival. No responsible owner or trainer would put any dog, let alone a reactive one in a situation where it had to fight for it's survival. Of course not, but an owner/trainer's resposibility can't control the actions of someone else's dog, a roaming DA dog suddenly appears charging towards your leashed dog, what then? How is it any different to being confronted with a DA dog when you are walking a panzy dog who won't fight back (a good thing I might add- I just tease him a little for being such a push over). One boy is just as 'defenceless' without a muzzle on as the other boy would be with a muzzle on. My reaction when I have both dogs is the same- to body block and move the other dog off. I know neither of them can/will do any harm so it is up to me to defend them. Not all dogs will defend themselves, as I have seen when one of my boys was attacked by dog significantly smaller than him intent on ripping his throat out- he just rolled over and tried crawl away while I tried to catch the little S*#^!! He did NOTHING to defend himself, and has shown no inclination to defend himself around other reactive dogs that have lunged at him. An off lead DA dog is a problem regardless of your dog- if it is muzzled or not, reactive or not. ETA- I would prefer to take the initiative and be the one to remove the offending dog than allow my dog to 'take one out'. I am trying to eliminate the behaviour so why allow the behaviour to occur? Also since the muzzled dog is on lead you have control of your dog and would be able to grab the other dog and use whatever force necessary to remove it instantly, instead of removing it, only to find your dog still attached and trying to keep them separate long enough for someone else to help. This way once you have control of the other dogs mouth/head there can be no further damage done. Edited January 11, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Getting some good responses mace. No responsible owner or trainer would put any dog, let alone a reactive one in a situation where it had to fight for it's survival. Of course not, but an owner/trainer's resposibility can't control the actions of someone else's dog, a roaming DA dog suddenly appears charging towards your leashed dog, what then? That dog has to get past me first. I know of a DA Rottweiler who suffered a terrible leg injury from a smallish DA dog, had the Rotty been unmuzzled, he would have easily taken the other dog out given the size difference instead of having severed tendons in his front leg as a result. You'd rather risk losing your dog or getting a dangerous dog tag? I'd take a live, injured dog over a council ordered dead dog. I would prefer to take the initiative and be the one to remove the offending dog than allow my dog to 'take one out'. Agree. And like Cosmolo said earlier, much easier to do with only one set of teeth to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Then you either shoo the other dog away or you are involved in a dog fight. Has happened to me - my dog ended up in hospital She only survived because some people came to help me get the other dog off mine. Yes that's right, now imagine your dog getting taken down like that because it was muzzled and if unmuzzled would have wiped the floor with the offending dog in a fair fight?. In my belief, you handle a DA dog accordingly in public to prevent reactivity, but if the unthinkable does happen, I would prefer my dog to have a fair chance of survival, muzzled it won't have that fair chance to defend it's self as it would without one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It was my DA dog that was attacked by a roaming dog much bigger and stronger than her, and though she is DA she was so obviously outclassed she didn't even try to fight back, just screamed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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