hankdog Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Hey Snook don't beat yourself up, you are doing so much and occaisionally you might do something wrong- point is you were doing something, not just ignoring your dogs situation, so cudos to you. The way I see it there are three parties in the situation, the reactive dog, the dogs owner and the rest of the planet who (often unwittingly) pose a problem for us. So now those owners might have just learnt that it's not appropriateto let their dog run up to every dog out there and maybe that lesson will one day stop their dog from being bitten or becoming reactive, probably not but we can hope! BC Crazy Jake saw a reputable behaviourist 2 weeks ago and he suggested we try a product called Calm made by petark, it is a "natural" mix of happy stuff including tryptophan so you could give it a go before going to get more expensive vet medication. I got him in February and he is a recycled pound dog. I later found an ad for him on a designer bulldog website, he was advertised as part of a breeding pair. He and his girlfriend were found roaming the streets and never fetched by the owner. She was rehomed quickly but he was on the PTS on this website. He has some scars so has probably been in at least one fight but my guess is he's a naturally anxious dog who was not socialised and the trauma of being impounded and separated from his partner has made him what he is. The behaviourist we just saw described him as a mixed bag of problems!! Jake was also put on a prong collar by the behaviourist, I was secretly hoping there was a magic reset button or perhaps a sage sibe to teach him manners. The session started with Jake having a good bark at the trainer as he opened the gate, I'm pretty much getting used to the embarrasement nowadays. Anyway controvery over prongs aside (but just a note that no one should consider using them without a behaviourists guidance) Jake is pretty good at listening to it in the garden, but he needs little correction at home anyway but once on the road he ignores it or throws a huge tantrum so I've been driving him to a park and then training him in the park. I drive because it can take me 40 minutes to find an on leash park without off leash dogs Yesterday I thought I struck it lucky on the second park but once out the car I realised there was a small dog at the far end of the park but since it was a football pitch sized park I just went with it. After 10 minutes a lady turns up with 2 large dogs and lets them free, Jake loses it. So instead of leashing her dogs and taking them to the adjacent off leash park she chooses to throw her ball right at us, so I'm sitting on the floor being a human thundershirt for Jake. Some days I get bloody minded so I thought "No way I'm leaving, you take your dogs and go." Anyway her and the other dogs' owner get in a huddle and must have called the ranger because he turns up 10 minutes later and goes to talk to them. Much animated discussion and pointing at us and she finally puts her dogs on leash and humphs out the park So today if she's there I will call the ranger- I think I might be becoming a reactive dog-owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 It will be a last resort to try medication Snook. I am usually dead against it but I think I have a pretty extreme case here. We are both exhausted by the end of each day & Stella is not the type of dog I like to leave alone for any length of time. She is such a sweet girl, all I want to do is help her relax.What you are saying is very true as is with Justice, her anxiety levels soar so high so quickly that nothing seems to help as she is too far gone, so to speak. Your post #336 made me think that medication could well be warranted in her case. She would feel like crap all day having to be constantly hyper vigilant or noise phobic - whichever the case may be. When you have a dog that winds up over it's threshold for long periods of time, no learning is occurring. If you are at the stage where you are not getting anywhere, chemical help is needed. Very good point Staff n Toller. That 's exactly what Stella is, you describe her to the letter. Hyper vigilant & noise phobic, she's both. I do try to distract her train of thought when she starts to get wound up but it is like she is in a trace like state if you will, oblivious to everything & everyone around her, until she can calm herself back down which takes a while. Am in the process of speaking with my vet to see what he suggests but am aware she does need some form of chemical help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Smartypaws, thanks for your vote of confidence & interesting to hear your boy is having a lot more "green" moments than previously with a little chemical & relaxation intervention One day I am hoping my girl will have some "green" moments too, instead of the firey orange/red we are living in at present. Snook, don't be too hard on yourself about the descisions you make regarding Justice. It is easy in reflection to say "oh I shouldn't of put him in that situation" but when you are there you only have a second to make that call. I would love $$ for every wrong call I have made regarding my 2 precious BC's & yes like you I beat myself up at every opportunity I get about it :laugh: Especially regarding Stella cause she is just so different. I'm like where have I gone wrong with her.I do blame myself & yet I think it may be a genetic thing, still doesn't stop me. My Sonny is such a lovely calm, very together, well balanced boy & Stella is well, Stella. All I can say is thank god I haven't got 2 Stel's They'd have me committed I reckon :laugh: Hankdog, your poor Jake has had an unfortunate start but you sound like you have made very good ground with him Well done to you. I have tried Calm by Pet Ark on Stella without success. If you find a reset button on Jake will you let me know where it is, I'm in desperate need to push Stella's Just had to edit for quick update regarding Stel & after speaking to the vet have decided to give her a try on Endep. Seems to work the best apparently. See how we go, it will take a few weeks before I will notice any change but that"s fine with me as long as she gets some relief I will be happy. Has anyone else's tried Endep with their dogs?? I know I have used it & didn't know it was OK for dogs till not so long ago? Edited September 4, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 Snook - we all panic in emergencies. I now practice the routine (both with and without Lucy) and try to make it a game. Cosmolo also advised me that, when I practice at home, to start introducing the "I'm tense" body language and voice. After all, in an emergency, you WILL be stressed and he'll know. If he thinks "oh, we're playing the u-turn and don't faff around game" and you're stressed he'll be used to it. I've also practiced getting out the spray and spraying it as I won't have time to fiddle around in an emergency. We had another good practice session today. I worked from home today and took the dogs to a private agility lesson for my lunch break. Both of them saw a horse for the first time, looked a bit and then ignored it. Lucy had a great session and was relaxed the whole time even though she was in a strange place and she'd never met the instructor before (she is more fearful of humans than dogs). She worked really well and was confident enough to take treats from a stranger. She even started offering different behaviour when Geraldine didn't give her the treat. It re-inforced a few things things: * I often underestimate her and baby sit her. She take longer than Fergus to learn things (she missed out on her critical puppy development) but she is a smart girl and a very good little worker. She can work for hours and still be enthusiastic. * She loves agility and it has helped build her confidence. If your dog lacks confidence I highly recommend it. * When she is tired physically and mentally she is more calm in tense situations. I know this is a statement of the bleeding obvious but often our reactive dogs don't do as much work because we can't take them everywhere, and the circle of reactivity continues. As we were leaving a BC ran up to us. Geraldine blocked him but he was about 1.5m away and Lucy was completely calm. She even turned her back on him and got in the car. I'm convinced she was just to tired to make a fuss, but every good interaction helps modify her behaviour. I also took Fergus - my happy go lucky boy - to the vet this morning and he went ballistic when a dog suddenly appeared from behind a car. WTF? A bit of LAT sorted it out but it reminded me that even "He's Friendly!" dogs aren't perfect all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 If your dog is genetically predisposed to being reactive or timid, then medication is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I don't know what anyone could have against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) I think if you have tried every other remedy, exhausted all other avenue's without success & your dog is still living on the edge for most of their day, what choice does a devoted owner have. I am not happy with having to medicate my girl & am still getting my head around it TBH but I feel she would be a far happier, content dog if she could get some much needed rest during the day or even just lay down & chill without running franticly round the yard, crying. Edited September 4, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I don't think you need to exhaust every other avenue first though - that means the dog needs to suffer for longer. I don't like medication either and Lucy is happy 99% of the time so we don't need it. However, if she spent her life on the edge I'd be happy to give her some respite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Yes you are right megan & probably I should have come to this solution earlier but I wanted to try alot of herbal or alternative remedies first just incase one of them worked for us. The Daps or Troy Behave & alike. I tried lots of them. But here we are. Edited September 4, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 Sorry I didn't mean it ss "you should have tried earlier" rather that you shouldn't feel guilty about giving her meds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I am not happy with having to medicate my girl & am still getting my head around it TBHng. Feeling anxious is horrible, fixing that is a kindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Oh no your right megan I didn't take it that way. Just trying to see my through this too :) I just got to say in one of your previous posts that you put your hand up, like as if to say "stop" if an off leash dog approaches trying to deter them & get their owners attention to recall their dog. I try this too but so far the owners are none the wiser & just wave back at me like I'm saying "hi" to them. ERRR!! Snook has a very good idea everyone should look after a reactive dog for just a week it may help change the handle leash free. I am another who is fed up with careless people. They just think leash free means you get there & let your dogs off to run a muck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 You need to learn "crazy eye look" - if you come near me and my dog I just might go nuts, so it is safer for you to stay away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 IM(limited)E, all dogs love agility unless the owners put too much pressure on them. It's confidence and bond building! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye GSD Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Guys - I run the risk of getting shot down here but I cannot understand why you would even contemplate taking your dogs to a dog park or any park that is frequented by other dog owners where you would run the risk of putting your dog in exactly the reactive situation you are trying to control. I know where you are all coming from and we each have our own problems which, although lumped together as "reactive dog owners" (or special needs dogs as was the handle we got from a breed specific club!!),lends itself to different training techniques to get us over these hurdles. Skye was so bad that she would bark and lunge at another dog across the other side of the oval and there was no way I could walk past another dog on the other side of the road. With the awesome guidance of Steve Courtney at K9Pro I am now assisting in a class situation with Skye on a down stay (not tied) while I help individual puppy handlers. To achieve this I refrained from all dog interaction and concentrated on focus. Without it, your dogs cannot learn and it has taken us twelve months to get where we are today using baby steps. Even now, Skye can still react to the odd dog but because we have spent so much one-on-one time together, I can read her and stop it before it escalates. I have no desire to enter a dog park for exactly the reasons everyone has stated on here - other people have no idea what it is like to own a reactive dog and we really shouldn't blame them for that - there was a time when we didn't either. It is up to us to manage our dogs and not put them in a situation where, should it go pear-shaped, you can guarantee we will be the ones with the dangerous dog label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 The vast majority of people don't go tondog parks. Snook took her dog into one once when no one was there. The problem is that off leash dogs are everywhere. Most people here are working with professionals including Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammieS Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Snook - You're not alone, I have had fallen into the same trap of thinking Asti was ok and putting her in situations that were obviously too stressful for her... I still feel guitly thinknig about it! BC Crazy - We saw a holistic vet to get Asti aligned properly because some of her reactivity was due to her being in pain for 3 years with a constant migrane (due to her atlas bone in her head being 'out') and sciatia (sp?) pain up both sides of her back We never knew there was anyting wrong except that she did appear to "crab" when she walked!!! This vet recommended some herbal anxiety tablets which we used last weekend when we had a big party at our place and when Asti was let out of her crate for a wee break she was more excited to see everyone out in our backyard instead of being territorial and losing her brain! The DAP spray and pet arc calm stuff didn't work for Asti but these tablets seemed too :) We have signed both our Frenchies up to a Clicks and Tricks class for 5 weeks (week 1 last week was without dogs). We are learning free shaping and i'm super excited as the clicker training and teaching tricks is getting Asti to think and offer 'good behaviours' voluntarily and it has started to switch her focus from her environment to me! Wish me luck on saturday... my plan is to sit at the back of class so we can move in and out depending on how her reactivity goes. I have so much to say and not enough time to type - sending virtual hugs to all my reactive rover friends! I know exactly what you're going through! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye GSD Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 The vast majority of people don't go tondog parks. Snook took her dog into one once when no one was there. The problem is that off leash dogs are everywhere. Most people here are working with professionals including Steve. I understand that most of us are working with professionals and I ,for one, do not handle delayed gratification easily. You think you have a handle on some small step that you are taking and try to push the limit only to take three back and have to start again. I have also made many mistakes on our journey and will no doubt make many more so I in no way mean to demean others who have done the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Sorry didn't mean to sound terse - I'm on the iPhone and can't type long sentences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) To be honest I often wonder why I walk anywhere let alone to a park but somehow I need to walk somewhere rather than an aimless round the street meander...just me I suppose. I also find that at home is no distraction for jake, my own street is on the way to a dog park and somehow that means people walk their dogs off leash to the park plus there are 2 free roaming kelpies so a pretty wild street for us. My 2 favourite parks are on leash parks that have multiple exits to the street so if off leashers turn up we can make a quick exit but Jake seems to see a park as garden plus one for distraction so provided everyone follows the rules and stays on leash it's a good spot for us. Plus its easy to see dogs coming so it avoids the surprise dog that suddenly barks behind a fence or pops out a driveway and my personal nightmare the one you walk slap bang into around a corner. Holding up a hand to indicate to people to back off-no chance all my hands are being used to hold my mad dog, if they don't get back off from the whole wild dog thing the hands not going to make a bit of difference. Crazy eyes, well I think I may just look a bit like that when I walk anyway. Edited September 6, 2012 by hankdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Yes walking the streets almost sends my 2 off to sleep I think. They just go through the motions if you will, like robots. I usually walk the fire trails through the bush there are a couple of really good tracks that go for miles right behind where I live in the winter, which they love & hardly ever see a sole. From spring through the summers months I use our leash free beach daily. I have been going there for almost 20 years. I have seen some crazy things in at times, some horrible examples of dog ownership. a puppy get killed Some very careless dog owners as well. But on the whole most people are just caring dog owners like myself. I pick my time of day when I know it is the least busy & are usually there for a couple of hours or so.Both mine absolutely love it. They swim & play together, retrieve ball & I do a bit of training. We walk the length of the beach twice. I keep mine away from all other dogs, 99% of the time.There is only a couple that I know are O.K. & mine are happy to mingle with. Some days we mingle, some not. There is also one end of the beach rarely used by anyone & that's our little nook. We end up doing about 7 or 8 km's a day so its great exercise for everybody & we go in all weathers. We embrace the rainy days as we have the beach to ourselves :) Edited September 8, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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