Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[megan_]

My long line is made of soft leather-like material. I bought it from Erny and it is great because you don't get rope burn.

I have found that a telling off rarely helps. In fact, with Lucy it just made things worse (I assume she thought I was cross at the thing that was scaring her, therefore validating her fear). It has been a lot of work to keep her below her arousal level, but it has paid huge dividends. Not only is it more relaxing for me, her and the community, but she isn't getting conditioned to respond aggressively.

If you start a thread asking for recommendations for a behaviourist in your area I'm sure people will be able to recommend someone.

Oh, and I have often wanted to make Lucy a "big, scary dog" suit so that people give her space. I have found that if I say she is fearful, people actually move closer, try to pat her and talk in a baby voice! Of course that makes things worse. I now do a subtle body block, say "She needs space" and then add that she has been abused and attention makes her feel unsafe. For some people I actually hold my hand up as a stop sign - it is surprisingly effective, even though I feel silly doing this.

[BC Crazy]

I also do the Stop sign with my hand. You have to at times to get peoples attention.

I have also started a thread for a trainer/behaviorist a while ago & this is the second one I have seen.

[Kavik]

People never listened to me when I told them not to let their dogs approach when I walk Zoe At training I even made a badge that I wore that said "I BITE other dogs" and people just laughed and approached anyway

So glad I don't have to deal with that anymore!

[BC Crazy]

Thanks for your understanding Snook. It really does get to me cause I'm trying my very best & giving it my all as all of us are. Some days I am beaming as I think I'm making progress & there are day like yesterday when you feel you are failing miserably.

I too get very frustrated at tlmes with people just not listening to me. Stella has a very sweet face & I am the first to agree but that doesn't mean she won't growl/bite you or your dog if her buttons are pushed. I try & warn folks & it's like, "oh no, she's way too cute, come here girl“. I should know, she is my dog after all. Sorry I will get off my soap box now :) just very frustrated.

Had to edit just to say that I used to be quite intimidated by Bull type breeds Snook but am getting braver in their presence & it's only because I have had nothing to do with the breed & with all the hype & bad publicity. I have only had working BC's & ACD's. Good on you for trying to prove the stigma & hype wrong :)

Edited August 30, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

I really want to get one of those in-training harnesses for Poots but they don't make them small enough I mean honestly you'd think dog owners would have enough sense to keep their 20kg+ dog away from my 3kg one cos even in "play" he could quite easily get hurt or killed. Even though I hate doing it, I have to resort to picking him up when he's in danger cos it is sooo hard to get through to people!

The good news is, BC, the more you learn to look for her warning signals, the quicker you can react :) Now I've managed to calm down with him he's improving, slowly but surely.

[Wobbly]

Fingers crossed for a better morning out with Stella than yesterday. She bailed up 2 BC's on separate occassions. One an older girl & the other around her own age, both submissive She seems to be a bully at times & charges up to a shy dog. Likes to stand over them, until they lie down. She growls & sometimes bares her teeth. I don't know how to handle this apart from call her & put her back on lead. Yesterday I called her & she came back but I am finding she bolts back to her victim as soon as they try to get up for one last growl & then returns to me if I'm not quick enough to clip her lead on. This behaviour is very hard for me to predict as she only does this to "certain" dogs, others are fine. She is a very vocal girl & it all sounds worse than it probably is but I just don't know how to correct this type of behaviour. Yesterday she lost her freedom after the second incident & remained on her leash. She doesn't actually fight these poor dogs, always seems to be bitches btw, just likes to bully them into submission. Any suggestions or folks who have similar issues ? I find this type of behaviour very upsetting as Stella is a very sweet, effectionate girl usually.

BC Crazy,

I guess how you handle it is your prerogative, but personally I'd never let my dog off lead around other dogs. I haven't had an incident of my dog being aggressive toward another dog in over 4 years (her aggression wasn't fear based, so was much easier to manage). But still, even after 4 years of her approaching other dogs in a friendly appropriate manner, I'd never let her off lead with unknown dogs. I have let her off lead here and there with dogs who I know are calm and well controlled and have owners I know well and have discussed potential outcomes with, it's always gone really well because I am so careful about it.

My reasoning for never letting her off lead with other dogs is this:

There is still the chance she could hurt another dog. If she hurts, or even just scares a very soft dog badly, it may cause that dog to become fear aggressive toward all other dogs for the rest of it's life. I would be responsible for ruining someone else's dog, and making them go through all the difficulties and heartbreak you ladies in this thread go through. I would feel so terrible, so it's not something I would risk.

Jarrah has been so good with other dogs for so many years now, but I know all that progress could be set back to square 1 in the course of 1 incident. I'd consider her to be non-DA now, I would never risk ruining that.

It's just my opinion, and ofc you know your dog best, but maybe some of these points are worth considering in respect to letting your dog off lead if he has shown aggression in the past?

[BC Crazy]

I have noticed that very thing Panzer Attack. I am so much more aware of upcoming situations & have learn't to remain so much more calmer than I used to be. My confidence has also soared & I have even noticed that I have a much more upright stance in the face of adversity.

Must say I too would pick up my small dog if he or she was in danger even though I am well aware it is a no no :)

Wobbly appreciate your post & so do see your point. I am determine to conquer this DA issue with Stella so its back to the behaviourist. Wish me luck cause I am sooo going to need it.

I so grateful for this forum. It is almost a relief at times to know you aren't alone with some of these issues our beloved dogs throw at us, also all the things you can learn & all the support is very much appreciated :)

Edited September 2, 2012 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

Hey BC crazy just a suggestion, my boy is a nutter and also major food allergies, I've started keeping a dog diary, rating his leash walking, level of reactivity, food for the day etc as I'm hoping after a while I might pick some triggers. It may be that the unpredictable becomes predictable. Unfortunately Jakes just always predictable, see dog go bananas but I'm hoping something may jump out at me in terms of what makes him less reactive.

[BC Crazy]

Hi hankdog, interesting post. Might keep my eye on that. Diet is very important. I don't have kids but if I've seen dramatic change in my nephew if he has too much artificle stuff. He goes hypo. Why couldn't that happen to certain dogs? I am very strict with Stella's diet & monitor it closely. She has the same as Sonny only a smaller amount & I measure it all out as I have attendency to overfeed if I don't. Has Jake always been DA ? Stella is so frustrating because her reactivness to other dogs is so random. Could walk past 20 dogs, not a worry, no. 21 she chases & bowls over. She loves all little dogs & is so gentle with them.

She is a very reactive girl at home in the backyard where you would think she would relax. The slightest noise, a bird flies past, god the other day a man sneezed 2 doors up on his balconny & Stella went nuts. I had to put her Thunder Shirt on her to help her calm down poor girl. I do feel for her as it must be exhausting living on edge all the time.

[megan_]

We had another "put our training into practice in real life" scenarios on Saturday morning. We went for a walk in the Fitzroy gardens at about 7.30am. It was beautiful and we followed the paths all around the park. We walked into a nice secluded spot when out of nowhere this guy started running towards us, arms flapping, ranting about the devil or something. I realised we must have stumbled onto a homeless guys territory so we did a very quick uturn, I gave them the "walk fast, no sniffing" command (quick! quick!) and we hightailed our way out of there.

After a few minutes he stopped chasing us. The dogs stayed calm the whole time! I wasn't worried about my safety but I was worried that the dogs would go ballistic if a strange man ranted and raved at us. The upside is that I got a very good cardio workout!

Lucy starts agility next week so I'm very excited about that. She is great off leash and is very work focused so I'm not worried about her seeking out other dogs. Hopefully there are no runners!

[BC Crazy]

Bet you both got a start with you stumbling across that homeless guy :laugh: Funny now but I bet it wasn't at the time Good on the dogs for remaining calm

Good luck with your agility next week. I so wish it was us, I would love to be starting but we have a ways to go yet

[BC Crazy]

Hi Snook, yes it is not easy with Stella as she is pretty much a nervous wreck at the slightest sound. Don't know why. Think it is just her make up. She is a very complex girl, like no dog I have ever had before.

Thanks for sharing the link & I will be reading up on that. I haven't heard of it before. I will give anything a go. I have tried both the DAP spray & collar to on avail unfortunatley. To be honest Snook

I am thinking of seeing the Vet about her & maybe getting something very mild to take the edge off for her. She is almost frantic most of the day. By night time she is exhausted, poor little girl

[BC Crazy]

It will be a last resort to try medication Snook. I am usually dead against it but I think I have a pretty extreme case here. We are both exhausted by the end of each day & Stella is not the type of dog I like to leave alone for any length of time. She is such a sweet girl, all I want to do is help her relax.What you are saying is very true as is with Justice, her anxiety levels soar so high so quickly that nothing seems to help as she is too far gone, so to speak.

[Staff'n'Toller]

It will be a last resort to try medication Snook. I am usually dead against it but I think I have a pretty extreme case here. We are both exhausted by the end of each day & Stella is not the type of dog I like to leave alone for any length of time. She is such a sweet girl, all I want to do is help her relax.What you are saying is very true as is with Justice, her anxiety levels soar so high so quickly that nothing seems to help as she is too far gone, so to speak.

Your post #336 made me think that medication could well be warranted in her case.

She would feel like crap all day having to be constantly hyper vigilant or noise phobic - whichever the case may be. When you have a dog that winds up over it's threshold for long periods of time, no learning is occurring. If you are at the stage where you are not getting anywhere, chemical help is needed.

[ness]

Snook if you need to set something up that is controlled I can always help out. Either one or both of mine would likely be fine. Let me know you know where to find me if necessary.

Edited September 3, 2012 by ness

[Tassie]

What a bummer, Snook. Must have been horrible for you. But having followed your journey with Justice, I'd be pretty hopeful that one poor experience won't set him back too far - especially if you can get back to practising all the good stuff you've been doing together. The signs about "under effective control" that are aat dog parks and off-leash areas here don't seem to compute for people - they seem to think that dog park or dog beach = free for all.

[ness]

No probs Snook - Amy has even met mine briefly :laugh:.

[kayla1]

It will be a last resort to try medication Snook. I am usually dead against it but I think I have a pretty extreme case here. We are both exhausted by the end of each day & Stella is not the type of dog I like to leave alone for any length of time. She is such a sweet girl, all I want to do is help her relax.What you are saying is very true as is with Justice, her anxiety levels soar so high so quickly that nothing seems to help as she is too far gone, so to speak.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that you weren't using it as a last resort. I just meant that I'm not normally pro-medication unless it's clear that you're not getting anywhere with other methods and that I agree that Stella sounds like she would benefit from some form of medical intervention. It can't be much fun being so stressed all the time.

I just took Justice out for the last part of our homework for the fortnight (we're back at the trainer on Wednesday) which was to take him to a dog park and get him to practise "relax" and reward him for any kind of behaviour that shows he's relaxed. We went to a local dog park and stood outside the fence that surrounds the small dog area playing LAT for about ten minutes, which he was doing really well with. I tried to get him to relax and although he'd do the position he wasn't actually relaxed and he wouldn't sit or lie down for very long. I thought that was probably because I was standing and looked like I was on alert, rather than sitting and relaxing myself. He was doing so well with LAT watching the small dogs that we moved over to stand outside the big dog section and continued playing LAT. There were only two dogs in there who were just walking slowly around the edge of the park with their owners after having had a huge game of chasey. The owners looked like they had pretty good control of them and it was a big area so I stupidly decided to take Justice inside the park so we could sit at one of the benches away from the dogs and give Justice a chance to relax. Of course, as soon as one of the dogs saw Justice it started walking toward him. I called out and asked the owner to call her dog back and she couldn't and then her dog started trotting toward us. The owner didn't bother to move toward her dog and I stood between it and Justice but Justice managed to get around the side of me and lunged and growled at her dog. That got her moving pretty quickly but sent Justice's stress levels through the roof. She and her partner leashed their dogs, were clearly pissed off and threw their hands up in the air at me and left.

On their way out someone was coming in with their great dane and it looked like they were having a bit of a bitch to the owner about what happened. I wasn't planning on staying in there any longer than it took for Justice to settle a little bit so we could leave but of course, the owner of the great dane let his dog off and it barrelled straight for us and once again the owner was unable to call his dog back when I called out. At least this time I was able to keep Justice behind me and get the other dog to back off by leaning forward, stamping my foot and yelling "no" but it was so close that I was right in its face. I'm probably lucky I didn't get bitten. Even though Justice was behind me he was growling and trying to get at the dog. After the dog took off back to his owner the owner yelled out "isn't your dog friendly?" and I said I was training him to be calm around other dogs. He looked at me like I was a total moron and a few owners on the small dog side of the park had gathered and were talking and pointing at us. I headed straight for the gate to leave and as we got through the first gate (the entrance to both the small dog and big dog sections have a gate that goes in to a very small central area with one more gate that leads to the outside) a man on the small dog side who had been watching what happened let his dog stand on the other side of the gate and bark and growl at Justice while I was trying to get him out and another woman came up to the outside gate and went to let her dog in to this tiny enclosed area that I was trying to get Justice out of. I politely asked her if she could please back up and give us some space so that I could get Justice out of the park and she looked annoyed but at least backed up. I got Justice out of there, stressed to the max with the other dog still barking and growling at him, and walked him a decent distance away from the park and stopped to give him a chance to calm down and stop trying to rip my arm out of its socket. I looked back and the owners of the small dogs were all standing there pointing and bitching about us and shaking their heads.

I feel like absolute shit and am so bloody stupid for thinking anyone in a dog park would be able to control their dogs and stop them from running up to us. I feel awful for how stressed Justice was and am kicking myself for putting him in that position. We've been working so bloody hard and then I go and do something idiotic like that. I'm just hoping like hell that it doesn't make his session on Wednesday harder for him.

Don't be too hard on yourself. I could kick myself for times in the past when I have unwittingly pushed my dogs above their threshold, or when I have/haven't reacted in a certain way with out of control dogs, but you learn from these experiences. Ignore the owners of the small dogs that were pointing - it's your dog that matters. I hope it doesn't set you back too far. :)

[Smartypaws]

It will be a last resort to try medication Snook. I am usually dead against it but I think I have a pretty extreme case here. We are both exhausted by the end of each day & Stella is not the type of dog I like to leave alone for any length of time. She is such a sweet girl, all I want to do is help her relax.What you are saying is very true as is with Justice, her anxiety levels soar so high so quickly that nothing seems to help as she is too far gone, so to speak.

Hi BC Crazy. Don't feel bad about seeking out advice about the suitability of medication for your dog. Some dogs can really benefit from it. For example, dogs that suffer from anxiety, which is a medical condition just like diabetes or epilepsy. If your dog had diabetes, would you avoid medication until you had exhausted all positive improvements from diet? Or would you use medication and diet together to get the best outcome for your dog? For dogs with an anxiety disorder, the use of medication can be a crucial part of the behaviour modification process......not that I am saying that is Stella, just that sometimes medication is warranted......and not even as a 'last resort'. I wish I hadn't waited as long as I did to see a Vet Behaviourist ......

Your description of Stella always being on edge and her anxiety escalating really quickly rings a bell for me too. It was described to me in terms of red, orange and green zones - my boy spends little time in green and lives at the top end of orange, which means he dosen't have far to go to escalate into the red zone. Medication and relaxation protocols are helping us to spend more and more time in green. :D

[megan_]

Snook, I too am a card carrying member of the "put my dog in a situation that wasn't safe, cried afterwards" club.

I hate the term "friendly dog" as it implies that the dog loves all dogs, including dogs that get right in its face and dogs that are 20 times the size of yours. All without proper introductions. My boy is easy going and very friendly but I wouldn't be happy with a Great Dane barreling up to him.

Sometimes we have to remember that we're learning too and that mistakes are part of learning. At the end of the day all dogs left that park unhurt and you learnt that most dog owners don't have control of their dogs. I used to take Lucy to an off leash local park and we'd walk around the perimeter. It was a small park and the locals knew her and their dogs gave her space. It was perfect. Then it seems that every local yokel went out and got a dog over winter and the park was ruined. She has never set a paw in an off leash park again. I am VERY comfortable that I can control her but I don't trust other owners - the vast majority of dogs don't have anything that resembles a recall and most owners don't use it anyway. Their dog is friendly which apparently means it can do whatever it wants and your dog has to just take it. End of that rant!

I subscribe to the "Dogs in Need of Space" blog and they have some great advice on dealing with approaching dogs (because even if you don't go to offleash parks, you'll have to deal with these). They also have some great advice on coping with a dog that has problems and the guilt and embarrassment involved.

One thing that I've learnt is that, unless the dog is outwardly aggressive, I don't to the block and "NO/STOP/SIT" anymore as I find it escalates things. Lucy picks up by my tone that this isn't a good situation and reacts accordingly. Now I do the food drop (big handfuls of smelly, easy to spot food) and do the uturn while forcing a smile and a sing-song voice. This has worked for us so far. I also have a squeaky toy to throw if they're not interested in food. Of course this isn't going to stop a dog that is genuinely aggressive, but not much will. I really with pepper spray were legal here as I'd feel more comfortable if I had that as a back-up.