Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Two Best Dogs!]

I'm glad he's feeling better ☺️Hope you're feeling better too!

[corvus]

I know what it's like, PK! Back in June we made one emergency trip to ARH in the middle of the night with a seizing puppy. It was a few weeks later before Erik had a seizure as well and tipped us off to environmental causes. Erik did not recover nearly as quickly as Kestrel did, although he had a much longer seizure. It seems like they can be quite variable. I reckon Erik was a bit stiff and sore the day after, and he both dogs were not quite right until the next day, really. Hope Malcolm is feeling better and it never happens again.

[Papillon Kisses]

He was quite tired and hungry afterwards but has been completely back to normal since (well, his idea of normal ). It's like it never happened, but I think I'll need a bit longer to recover.

He was allowed to go to training today provided he wasn't too stressed before or during (which is the aim anyway). It went well, though during a break he decided to roll in possum poo... so there he is, collapsed to one side, legs buckling and body flailing around and my logical side is saying it's possum poo, you know it's possum poo, but the feeling side is concerned it's another seizure, and did I mention I need more time to recover?

Geez Mal!

How is everyone else?

[Two Best Dogs!]

I think it's their job to scare us!! Am glad he is feeling well enough to roll in poop at training.

We are good. We are very tired but good. Her incontinance has come back with the warmer weather so we will go to vet on Monday to discuss meds. I'll need to catch her peeing to see if her ph has gone up too.

Some setbacks but overall pretty happy with how she is going ???? I am less stressed over other dogs too, provided they're not moving very fast. Just trucking along.

How's justice? I've been seeing some cute photos on Instagram but I want to hear more about his day and his humans day!

[Papillon Kisses]

Damnit, he's now getting all OCD about regular shadows and not just light reflections.

[Two Best Dogs!]

I think we jinxed ourselves Thistle growled at the head trainer today. She hasn't done that at anyone in awhile, guess I pushed her too much too hard too fast. We had temporarily joined advanced class and it was very challenging.

Need to do more BAT with men. Just not many men in our lives! and only one male trainer.

[Simply Grand]

Hey Thistle, can I ask about your experience when you adopted Thistle? I'm sure you've gone through it before but I thought of you because my current foster Molly reminds me of Thistle and I'm torn about whether it is responsible to rehome her when I know she has fear aggression issues with humans as well as dog aggression, which I think stems from discomfort but not necessarily fear.

Molly is very manageable for someone who knows what they are doing and doesn't take chances, and she can be around people and other dogs with me as long as I keep on the ball and manage her. She is super responsive to what I tell her to do and but she worries me because if something goes wrong with another dog she would do damage (she has also shown serious prey drive towards small dogs and cats) and particularly worrying is that although her aggression towards humans is pretty clearly fear driven and only comes out when she feels threatened, she moves towards the threat growling, lunging and snapping, which makes me fairly confident that she would be quite quick to bite a person in certain situations. I'd be less concerned if she tried to move away, even with the snapping and lunging if the threat continued.

So my question is, how much did you know about Thistle's issues when you took her on? I know it's a tricky question but in the same situation again would you take on the challenge? Do you think it's fair for a rescue group to rehome a dog they know has these issues, even with full disclosure?

I'm also concerned because I think the chances of finding an owner as responsible as you guys all are is pretty slim and I can just imagine how awful is feel if I rehomed her then found out something had gone wrong and she'd killed someone's dog or injured a person

The rescue group's advice on next step is meds (Prozac) following a consult with a VB, which I don't have a problem with in general, and will definitely try, but given that she is still highly responsive to me when she's exhibiting these behaviours, not shut down with anxiety or in some kind of aggressive "red zone" I'm not sure how beneficial that will be.

Anyone else's thoughts very welcome too!

Oh, and I can't keep her, even if I wanted to as she and my dogs hate each other and have to be completely separated, with Molly attempting to kill (IMO) both of my small dogs when we've had slips. Luckily I've been right there and able to strangle her with her collar before she did any serious damage

ETA despite all that she is absolutely beautiful with me, I trust her completely not to hurt someone she trusts and in many ways is very easy to live with around the house, it's just the outside world that is a problem.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Two Best Dogs!]

This is a tricky one I think. Because her human issues were in a way both better and worst before I got her?

Worse in that she will give fearful but also silly bays at people 15+ metres away. Better in that she wasn't bolting all the time, was voluntarily going up to ppl. Dogs were not an issue at all, even when a big puppy surprised us and she jumped.

And different in that outside world she was pretty good if completely untrained. Before adopting I took her to botanical gardens, the vet, a pet store and a dam. Test walks and different environments. Couldn't walk on the lead but was your typical overexcited dog. She did cower all night first night home but was silly the next day. And I had no issues with guests or even the petsitter the first few months.

But then yeah then Scarlet attacked her and she became worse than when I got her. I'm not sure if her ppl issues became so extreme straight away after the attack and I didn't notice or not. My issue is more guests and the rare occasional man outside the house. I think because it's her safe space + I don't have guests over often. It really scares her.

It wasn't until October a good 8 months after adoption that I realised we had the "new" guest issue. Idk if I missed a fear period or it was from the attack or something happened while I wasn't home but she went from quiet with guests to the scared barking and growls. But she always retreats. Pisses, retreats. Haven't had her raise a lip or lunge or anything. and it's pretty specific to the house + ppl approaching her. It's mitigated if I bring ppl in then bring thistle in then we can work on counter conditioning. The "toward" her movement is the trigger?

TBH I wouldn't have adopted post-attack thistle even with full disclosure. But I was a first time owner a knew I couldn't handle a dog like that. Pre-attack thistle was a bit of a fixer-upper but not overwhelmingly so. More the kind I'd need to wait patiently. Post-attack thistle was a wreck and now we have finally buffed her up pretty nice and just working on those final touches. She'll always be a bit of a work in progress but we will get there.

I think full disclosure is a good idea but idk how it would affect adoption. If the rescue had known about Scarlet's issues and not told me I would have been after them for not telling me. So it's good for them that I think they honestly had no idea she was as she was.

I think some kind of management plan to give new owners to start out with is a good idea. And definitely be upfront about outright nos.

Sorry idk how helpful that all is. It's a pretty muddled timeline of ups and downs

Edited September 20, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Simply Grand]

Ah, I see, I wasn't sure about the timeline of Thistle's issues,

such a shame the attack set her back

Full disclosure will be an absolute given, even if it hinders her getting adopted, which it will, but there's no way I'd try and hide or down play her issues.

I actually haven't had anyone over to the house since Molly has been here, you've reminded me that I wanted to test that with her. She guards the car but she spent six months living in a car with her owner when they lost their house before she was seized and I'm sure some scary stuff happened so I'm not surprised about that.

It's really tricky being in this in-between position of knowing the dog better than anyone else but not actually being her owner, I know if it was my dog and I couldn't keep her (which if she had been and started trying to kill my other dogs I wouldn't) I wouldn't rehome her, she'd be PTS, but given that as a rescue we've basically committed to rehoming her it's tricky. And the other thing is if she was my only dog and she developed these issues there's no way I'd contemplate euthanasia because I know I personally could and would commit to manageing her.

Argh

[Two Best Dogs!]

Argh indeed it is a bit easier in a way - the big issues began when I was already a committed owner, she was now a solo dog and no one else in the house to consider.

Meanwhile scarlet got the short end of the stick - I surrendered her knowing she's likely be pts. Scarlet was outright aggression though, I couldn't in good mind rehome her too dangerous. Perhaps if I didn't also have thistle I might have kept her, hard to say. Human aggression is a deal breaker for me so I probably wouldn't. But then also you get attached so perhaps might have gone same route with training. Still would have had to choose between two dogs though :/

It is hard I don't like thinking about it much. I'm not much help I'm afraid.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Simply Grand]

No, it is helpful! Getting anyone else's thoughts helps me clarify what I think. And so many people don't really understand serious behaviour issues in dogs and just dismiss it as "oh they'll be fine" so it's good hearing from people who take it seriously.

[Willem]

Hey Thistle, can I ask about your experience when you adopted Thistle? I'm sure you've gone through it before but I thought of you because my current foster Molly reminds me of Thistle and I'm torn about whether it is responsible to rehome her when I know she has fear aggression issues with humans as well as dog aggression, which I think stems from discomfort but not necessarily fear.

Molly is very manageable for someone who knows what they are doing and doesn't take chances, and she can be around people and other dogs with me as long as I keep on the ball and manage her. She is super responsive to what I tell her to do and but she worries me because if something goes wrong with another dog she would do damage (she has also shown serious prey drive towards small dogs and cats) and particularly worrying is that although her aggression towards humans is pretty clearly fear driven and only comes out when she feels threatened, she moves towards the threat growling, lunging and snapping, which makes me fairly confident that she would be quite quick to bite a person in certain situations. I'd be less concerned if she tried to move away, even with the snapping and lunging if the threat continued.

So my question is, how much did you know about Thistle's issues when you took her on? I know it's a tricky question but in the same situation again would you take on the challenge? Do you think it's fair for a rescue group to rehome a dog they know has these issues, even with full disclosure?

I'm also concerned because I think the chances of finding an owner as responsible as you guys all are is pretty slim and I can just imagine how awful is feel if I rehomed her then found out something had gone wrong and she'd killed someone's dog or injured a person

The rescue group's advice on next step is meds (Prozac) following a consult with a VB, which I don't have a problem with in general, and will definitely try, but given that she is still highly responsive to me when she's exhibiting these behaviours, not shut down with anxiety or in some kind of aggressive "red zone" I'm not sure how beneficial that will be.

Anyone else's thoughts very welcome too!

Oh, and I can't keep her, even if I wanted to as she and my dogs hate each other and have to be completely separated, with Molly attempting to kill (IMO) both of my small dogs when we've had slips. Luckily I've been right there and able to strangle her with her collar before she did any serious damage

ETA despite all that she is absolutely beautiful with me, I trust her completely not to hurt someone she trusts and in many ways is very easy to live with around the house, it's just the outside world that is a problem.

I might have a 'mild' reading impairment too, but I'm pretty sure - correct me if I'm wrong - that you described this behaviour in another thread recently as 'mild fear aggression'...so if this is 'mild', how would a 'typical' form of fear aggression look like?...

Personally, I'm not so much concerned about aggressive dogs that show their aggression more or less all the time, as these obvious dangerous behaviour is relative easy to address and the owner would have to be a complete moron if he/she wouldn't apply appropriate measures to constrain such dogs. I'm more concerned about dogs that doesn't show the aggression all the time where you get this ...'he/she never did this before'...when attacks happen.

However, if this is a 'mild' form of fear aggression and those dogs get rehomed because of such an evaluation, I'm not surprised that still so many people get bitten by dogs.

[Simply Grand]

Willem, I have seen new and escalating behaviours from her during the time I have had her and as she has been exposed to more situations. And that is all I will say to you in regards to this dog.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Papillon Kisses]

SG, I wouldn't be concerned that you'd be medicating too soon. Prozac and other behavioural medications facilitate faster learning, vs negative emotional responses and behaviours getting more entrenched. It's a bit of a myth that they should be left as a last resort and, sorry to be blunt, but if PTS is on the cards you do have a life-threatening, last resort situation on your hands.

So if the rescue has resources to devote to this dog seeing a VB, jump on it. They can help guide your decision and a report and treatment plan can be given to the new owner to continue with if it is decided that it is safe for Molly to be rehomed. In the meantime, if you haven't already, I'd be training her to accept and love wearing a Baskerville type muzzle for when she's out in public. The muzzle up project has some resources and Thistle can tell you all about decorating them. :D

I am concerned about a new owner taking her issues seriously. I don't mean in a deliberate way, but that I don't know if one can actually comprehend the seriousness of it and the amount of work involved unless you've been there yourself, and I think those of us who stick with it are probably pretty rare. It's a massive learning curve, a LOT of hard work, and an emotional rollercoaster.

Wishing you all the best.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Hahah I saw that PK.

I actually just took her out of it, now that the cut is all scabbed over. Just didn't want her worrying at it.

Decorative muzzles are fun! Wouldn't recommend this brand of duct tape though, the sticky is already leaving I just wanted a pretty muzzle!

Perhaps anyone who considers taking the dog on can do a "foster with a view to adopt" trial run, with all the support you and the rescue can give them. Perhaps find a local dog group where you can start teaching her in a formal situation to control herself around dogs and people (at a safe distance!) - then potential new owner could also take where you leave off at the group?

(I do not recall if you have something like this available to you, I'm more thinking controlled structured situations to teach her to stay calm in addition to any BAT/LAT/rehab/meds)

[Simply Grand]

Thanks PK, yep I got her a Baskerville muzzle and we are working on the training. I had already started training her with a soft muzzle in case she needed to see a vet urgently or something and she is going ok with the Baskerville, so far it has meant lots of licking peanut butter, which she enjoys.

I've gone right back to basics with her re counter conditioning and LAT, after initially having good progress in her feeling ok around other dogs then having her go backwards, and she is very responsive to it.

But like you say PK, I'm really worried about a new owner taking her issues seriously. If the average joe watched her with me they would barely see the issues, and if someone understood the importance of the close management required it would be fine, but the problem is people don't. I've had a fair few conversations with people saying "oh it's just coz she's on lead", "oh my dog wants to be boss too, I just tell him off", "oh she's had a tough life, she just needs love", "don't worry, my dog's dominant, it'll tell her off" etc etc etc when I don't let them interact.

We will do the VB consult and the meds, because of course it's worth trying. And I'm contemplating enrolling her in the local obedience club once she is muzzle trained, I wanted to do that with her initially but I know I need to have her comfortably muzzled just in case someone's dog gets loose and bolts past and scares her.

ETA and the other thing in the back of my mind is that she is definitely going to go backwards with moving and learning to trust someone new, and if it is going to go pear shaped and she is going to be PTS in the end I'd rather it be done with me, who she now knows as her whole world, than after further distress for her. But we aren't at that point yet.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Papillon Kisses]

Just be careful SG not to push too hard too fast as there's a risk of sensitising the dog instead of desensitising. Instead of going to obedience classes, it may be better to focus on foundation skills at home and attend a reactive dog class focused on LAT/BAT or do your own practice with a dog or two, working up to doing the same in the periphery of classes (and that may take some time). Even in a small class there's a LOT of dogs, some of whom can be quite keyed up. It can be sensory overload for an anxious dog.

Mal actually shut down in his one and only obedience class. He sat there frozen, shaking violently, staring straight ahead and refusing to look around or eat his yummy treats. The stupid trainer thought he was scared of the grass.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Papillon Kisses

[Simply Grand]

PK, I think she would actually be ok with it, she can be around dogs at even a close distance and can actually interact with them by sniffing the same patch of ground, and even sniffing each other. It's not dogs just being there that she has issues with per se, it's trying to establish a dog to dog relationship with individual dogs.

Her thing seems to be that she hasn't learnt "dog language" and by nature she is basically a dominant bitch (not in the alpha, pack leader blah blah sense but in the won't tolerate rudeness, wants other dogs to listen to her type of way) but hasn't learnt how to translate that to getting along with other dogs, unless they are very submissive to her. Quinn, my own girl, is the same but because she has had good socialisation her whole life she has learnt all the subtleties of polite greeting, respecting space, avoidance, diffusing situations, warnings etc, whereas Molly goes straight from initial engagement to "I'll fight you" if the other dog doesn't show complete submission.

Initially she had progress actually at the dog park (with very close guidance from me - obviously not recommended unless handler knows what they are doing!!) - in learning appropriate greetings and interactions but then she discovered that she liked toys when a dog she had befriended and played started playing with a ball and Molly decided it was worth having and started resource guarding basically anything, meaning all other dogs suddenly became a threat before they even interacted with her, so that's where she went backwards.

I don't think I said it before, but I had another foster here a week or so ago for just over a week, a six month old female, and after some careful initial introductions they figured out how to interact and would play together and Molly started realising she didn't need to fight for the toys, there are enough to go round, and that she could use more subtle warnings if she wasn't happy about something. They were nowhere near being alone together but it it did show me that Molly is capable of learning more appropriate behaviour.

So since that experience I've taken her back to the park and stayed outside walking around the fence doing lots of LAT, positive association stuff, and she is going really well with it.

She is actually very clear in her body language if you know what you are looking at so its clear when she becomes over-aroused, or anxious. Which is great for me, but still probably too subtle for someone who doesn't know what they are looking at.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Much the same here Snook :) Haven't really had any set backs, haven't really had any huge wins. Just pleasant ongoing life with a bit of management.

But then, isn't that a win? :thumbsup:

We found a new park to visit today. It was a lovely visit. We watched the ducks, she only got a little anxious/stare over other dogs (also on leads!!), did jump when a dad ran past playing chasies with his kids. But nothing alarming. Just worried.

But all in all, just a nice hour and a bit walking about sniffing/pissing everywhere in a new location. I wish I had known about this park last year!

We have had some more play dates with various dogs. Thistle and Didi had a small misunderstanding during play, but it wasn't a big deal and back to playing. I am pleased to report I am feeling a bit better after things like this too! Much less freaking out from me

All very good :)

Edited October 8, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Papillon Kisses]

I'm liking your pleasant, albeit carefully managed lifestyles! Hopefully you'll both get some forward momentum soon.

Malcolm is slowly coming off Gabapentin as it was making him worse, and we're trying to decide whether to keep trialing meds with our current VB or see a registered specialist at SABS ($$$$!!! ) which was another option put forward.

He didn't progress as far as other dogs in the reactive dog classes, but having setups was helpful and we did learn more about him which is good in itself. The aim is to diversify his coping strategies so I'm tasked with teaching him more behaviours beyond his current repertoire of looking at me, sniffing elsewhere and the good old lunge/bark combo.

He finished Intermediate Nosework and we're waiting for a spot in Intro to Odour. And we're up to Task 13 with the Protocol. Two to go! Some setbacks and stalling due to two unsuccessful med trials but I guess that's life.

No seizures since the first one though, bloods came back normal for him, and he's back in his healthy weight range too.

ETA: Wow, task 13 just went really well for a first go! He only reacted when I collided with a wall, and his reaction was just standing on his mat. No loss in focus!

Edited October 8, 2016 by Papillon Kisses