Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[JulesP]

She needs to be happy with people walking up and patting her before a formal stand for exam is attempted.

[ness]

I am going to disagree with that JulesP. My super nervy dog who isn't great with strangers will do a perfect rock solid SFE because she is anticipating a release to her tug. To the outside world you would think she is super confident and happy with strangers approaching. Obviously this was not an overnight behavior but something we grew and developed incrementally under the guidance of a trainer. Its a bit of a party trick in a sense. What she learned in this context a person will approach and at some stage she will be released for her tug. I can tell you if the same person walked up to her and tried to pat her in an informal situation she certainly would not be happy and would look hesitant and unsure and would try and back off.

Edited May 2, 2016 by ness

[JulesP]

I am going to disagree with that JulesP. My super nervy dog who isn't great with strangers will do a perfect rock solid SFE because she is anticipating a release to her tug. To the outside world you would think she is super confident and happy with strangers approaching. Obviously this was not an overnight behavior but something we grew and developed incrementally under the guidance of a trainer. Its a bit of a party trick in a sense. What she learned in this context a person will approach and at some stage she will be released for her tug. I can tell you if the same person walked up to her and tried to pat her in an informal situation she certainly would not be happy and would look hesitant and unsure and would try and back off.

Your dog is nothing like Thistle! Nothing at all.

But hell what do I know I was only an instructor for 5 years.

[ness]

All I am suggesting JulesP is that actually being comfortable with having somebody walk up at pet them informally may be actually harder then teaching a dog to accept a SFE in a formal context. I don't think the dog sounds like it should be doing either right now to be honest. Approaching at a distance and then rewarding yes maybe but definitely not touching.

But then what would I know either - you haven't met my dog just as I haven't met Thistles so I don't know how you can presume/assume any level of how bad she may or may not be. I couldn't have even contemplated having mine in a class situation because that was to much for her.

Edited May 2, 2016 by ness

[Papillon Kisses]

It's so important that Thistle maintains her trust in you and gets to work at a pace she's comfortable with.

The above point cannot be stressed enough. It might also help to reframe your thinking about the issue. Thistle isn't disobeying your instruction as such, it's more that she can't obey them because she's too anxious. It's like... think of something that you'd find absolutely terrifying, maybe someone holding a gun to your head or heights or being in a pit of snakes. You might cry or scream, your heart would be pounding. Thistle's fear may be illogical to us, but it is very real to her. Her barking is your scream for help.

[Willem]

Right now even with stand at home her tail is starting to hang, she is not enjoying it so am trying to turn it back into a game and build her confidence up and let her know she's doing it right. I think perhaps the trainer is seeing it as thistle being disobedient because she knows barking works but i think they might be under estimating her drive to please me? But she needs to realise the pleasing me (stand still and ignore close ppl) doesn't mean she will be hurt (successful ppl passing by at closer and closer) and I don't think she's confident in that yet.

Ah well. Will see what head trainer thinks. I have to remember to go grab him after class though! It will only be about 5 mins.

you might try the following: next time you want to train the stand take a blanket or towel on which she slept the night before - give it to a decoy; keep some distance while the decoy is rolling out the towel in front of him....now walk with Thistle towards the decoy and make her stand on the towel / blanket - adjust the distance between blanket and decoy as required.

The familiar sense from the blanket might give her the required confidence (instead of standing in the middle of nowhere now she stands on familiar ground) ...

Eta: if it works and boosts her confidence you can make the towel / blanket smaller and smaller over time....

Edited May 2, 2016 by Willem

[ness]

Trust is definitely important and the reason why predictability makes interaction easier in a formal context but may still cause anxiety in an informal context.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Sorry I wanted to wait until after dinner to reply.

Willem, I tried suggesting something similar, with using her "foot target" but was advised/told that it's...I don't remember the words, but it was along the lines of not challenging her enough.

The explanation gist, now that I've thought on it for 24 hours including in my sleep!, is that she is barking and moving because she knows it works. So class-trainer want to keep doing it until she realises it doesn't work and to not back out of comfort zone. Which is something we do sometimes do in some specific situations like when people walking past house - i ask them to stop walking then continue walking away when she shuts up, but I think for this particular command I would like to give her no reason to bark at all. As in, help lessen her being uncomfortable and worried. Like have her a little uncomfortable when walking past but not at barking uncomfortable, reward then, then pass a little closer and reward that and rinse and repeat.

Which I think is what head-trainer will hopefully advise as a lot of his other advice for various situations has been around easing her wariness. So giving treats when guests arrive at door, rewarding her sitting quietly when he walks past at her comfort distance by having *us* walk away and shoving more food in her face for sniffing people or being around them.

But class-trainer i think is not realising the direct approach is different to when thistle is the one approaching her for treats. Even when dididog did the stand for exam routine, thistle was a little tense and worried face and thistle really likes dididog and it was just a walk by! Class-trainer Thistle tolerates for food, but hasn't asked for pats yet. She still flinches from *me* if i make a sudden unexpected movement :/ Recovers well though

I do think once she understands it is like the vet, thistle could hold the formal stand and the lightest touch (as she can hold her sit and drop in similar context), but she doesn't yet understand it is like with the vet? so why a bit more space in the people passing is needed.

I wish it was sunday after class so this could be all clarified and some guidance! and also i'm worried by asking a third party to come in i have offended but he is the head-trainer and he is good at catering his explanations for me to understand. and for giving reassuring speeches that thistle needs time, patience and treats ;)

Ummmm I think that covers everyone, thank you for all your reassurances that I'm not nuts for having my guts so strongly against the class method i hope sunday is enlightening.

Did i mention it in thread? head trainer was at a seminar this weekend and says a dog with a similar situation was in the demo. i'd be interested to see what steps they took to help the dog.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Simply Grand]

Thistle, you know your dog best and I think you know the right approach to take with her but are doubting yourself because of what the class trainer is saying.

The approach of "keep exposing them to the distressing trigger until they realise their response is not achieving anything and stop doing it" is the theory behind CAT (constructional agresssion technique...I think!) and is NOT something I would attempt except under the guidance of an experienced behaviourist - not because a club trainer says so. And the thing is, with that approach Thistle is still going to have to endure the thing she is trying to avoid by barking, so it's showing her that no matter what she does she cannot avoid this thing she is still so uncomfortable with, which is not a desirable outcome to me!

I really think the approach of working from under her threshold and continuing to change her emotional response to being approached and handled is going to be more effective in the long term for obedience, but more importantly for real life. And for keeping her trust that you will listen to her signals and help her out accordingly.

DO NOT be afraid to tell the class trainer that you will not be participating in that exercise for now if you don't feel it's the right thing for Thistle right now. If s/he has a problem with that, it's her/his problem, not yours!

Edited May 2, 2016 by Simply Grand

[dididog]

SFE is a tricky one with strangerphobic dogs and I agree that expecting a SFE right now is unrealistic and you should just keep going with desensitising her to the possibility of it.

I got Didi to a stage where she was confident approaching and being touched by our trainers at obed (would previously bark and carry on when they were still metres away) and she would even allow stand for exam but would normally break the stand to swing her bum around a bit and keep an eye on the trainers hand. Despite being quite happy with being handled by the trainers the SFE exercise is pretty unnerving as it's not typically how somebody would approach a dog to pat them and it made her nervous. In hindsight I wish I'd paid more attention because this was Didi being a good girl and using her coping mechanism (put distance between yourself and the scary thing) but my instructors pressured me a bit and since I was so used to Didi using aggression to show discomfort I wasn't too concerned and didn't try and take a few steps backward and Didi got more and more uncomfortable with the exercise and one day she had enough and tried growling instead of avoidance and realised that was much more effective in stopping the exercise.

After that SFE was not safe for us to do and we had to bring it back to just doing stand with instructor walking in gradually tighter circles around us. Close enough for Didi to be a little unsure but not too close that she'd get scared and allowed me to reward the experience. We got to the stage where she would let them walk in a tight circle (like under 1m) and touch her back however could never do an actual SFE because it was the head on approach that she found most unnerving.

So we had to break the exercise down into two parts, the approach and the touching/proximity. Once we'd worked on getting her more desensitised to holding stand in close proximity to the trainer we started doing another thing where the trainer would stand facing us and avoid eye contact and we would walk up to them in heel and once Didi's shoulders were level with the trainers legs I would put her in a stand. So we were still approaching the trainer head on, just we were the ones approaching and not the trainer which made Didi more comfortable. We started off at whatever distance she was comfortable with and would slowly approach the trainer closer and closer to their leg (and obv rewarding for everytime she held the stand) and eventually she was standing right up against the trainers leg and once we got to that point the trainer would also reward her (so she got used to hand movements out of her direct line of sight but the hand movement = treats and not being touched so it was positive for her) and eventually (with female trainers) was comfortable with being touched and holding the stand. Unfortunately we stopped going to obed a bit after this so I'm not sure if more progress with that method would've helped make the head on approach less scary for her and if we'd be able to combine the two things together.

But yes I think it can definitely become a matter of exercise being scary rather than the concepts behind it (being touched by a stranger) because Didi was fine with being touched and is quite outwardly friendly to strangers now, but forced physical interaction where her ability to move away is discouraged was whole other level of expectation and one that I'm not sure we'll ever get over because SFE goes against everything I taught her to do when uncomfortable around a stranger.

[Simply Grand]

Hey Snook, no pressure whatsoever and I haven't said anything to her, but a friend of mine who I worked with at RSPCA ACT has just moved to Adelaide and she has dog reactive Border Collie. This is their FB page:

https://m.facebook.com/HelpJayln/

If it is something you are up for, I'm sure she'd appreciate just the contact with another Adelaidian who has a pretty severe dog reactive dog.

She also has NDTF qualification, RSPCA assessment and training experience and another non-reactive dog so may possibly be able to give you an unofficial hand with Justice - again I haven't said anything to her about that.

As I said, no pressure whatsoever, but maybe there could be some mutual help there :)

ETA not sure if she'll know me as SG but she should know Claire from RSPCA if you wanna make contact and mention...

Edited May 3, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Simply Grand]

Thanks Snook, that would be great. Totally understand about wanting to keep where you take Justice to yourself, you have to keep your focus on doing the right thing by him, I'm sure she'd love any tips she can get though and even just contact with someone who understand how tough it is :)

[Two Best Dogs!]

Poor Didi I most definitely want to avoid Thistle growling or any other escalations with this method. I hope the head trainer can help out, or I'm going to have to step out of training this command in class until Thistle has more positive feelings with this Trainer beyond "if i nose her i get treats"...

We practice stand for exam today - we've been practicing stand on its own all week, but lightly on her keeping the focus on me. I'm tying to give her a target by resting her head in my hand but she moves her head to follow people approaching so might stop that.

We started with people walking far away and closer and closer. Then, separately, we had her standing while she got a rub down/massage from the male staff member in the store while I would say the command, click and reward (for her standing there).

Then at the end I bought her a doggie biscuit, commanded her into position, moved to my spot with the biscuit as the target and had the male staff member approach head on and run his hand down her back. She whale-eyed and moved her head to watch but no barking, growling or moving away!

Treat was eaten in one bite. I bought 6 more for obedience class. Now if only could get the class-trainer to do it this way in class so I can reward Thistle more and she can realise nothing scary!

Edited May 6, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[JulesP]

Your pet shop staff are very helpful!

Good luck on the weekend.

[Two Best Dogs!]

They are a continual source of help! In exchange I buy lots of stuff from them :laugh: They have been every step of the way, so they know what's up and how to approach her and in quiet moments are very obliging to training.

(I have a network of 4 stores to practice to different degrees in! + the market, the RSPCA. I like the controlled environments for practicing "city manners")

edit: woops, joyful adrenaline rambling. Thank you, will take all the luck!

Edited May 6, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Papillon Kisses]

Good luck on the weekend from Malcolm and me, too!! Stand your ground with the trainer, you know your dog the best!

We had a completely uneventful walk today, and thank goodness it was uneventful because the last one certainly wasn't! I'll preface this by saying we've been instructed by our VB to avoid all dog encounters at the moment. We walk in quiet times, in known areas (main roads are great), and don't even go down streets which have dogs barking behind fences.

So last Friday Mal was sniffing a fence when an on-leash poodley type dog approached from behind. The dog and handler were very quiet so by the time they came closer, it was too late to make a calm getaway. We were also boxed in. So the admittedly well-behaved, more-focused-on-walking poodle mix came within less than half a meter of Mal, Mal looked at the dog and I think registered it, then went back to sniffing the fence! I know sniffing can be a displacement behaviour but I was really pleased, as having a dog suddenly appear by his side can scare him. It was only when the dog was further ahead that his body language changed: ears up, stiffer body, alert.

Next dog encounter wasn't so good. We were walking when I saw a leashed dog in the distance coming our way. As instructed, I did a u-turn and went down a seemingly quiet street. I could hear a dog whimpering with excitement from further down across the road but assumed it was behind a fence. Famous last words. The biggest Ridgeback I've ever seen in my life came hurtling towards Malcolm with no owner in sight. It actually did just want to (completely inappropriately) play, but Mal's stress levels were through the roof and Mr Ridgie Didge was ignoring both of us asking him to back off. And this is the exciting part: Mal remembered his training from years ago when we did lots of quasi BAT, and instead of snapping at the dog and escalating the situation, he stood behind me so I could perform a body block. I went into full mama bear mode and ROARED "NO! GO HOME" complete with stop sign and pointing gestures. Oh my was the Ridgie shocked, he gave me a look like I had destroyed his feelings (are ridgebacks super sensitive?) before running back home. Maybe I overplayed my hand: I don't like yelling at dogs and am conscious that I need to remain calm around Malcolm, but I saw impending disaster. Malcolm would not have been able to do that years ago with a dog that was so large and full on; his fuse was a great deal shorter. I've also seen him dangling by the throat in a Rottie's jaws which doesn't help.

I am seriously wondering if Mal's Adaptil collar attracted the dog. He really did come from no where, I don't think he could have seen us, and he was unbelievably excited to see Malcolm like he was a long lost friend or relative. Coupled with the feeling of total rejection when I told him to go, it just makes me wonder. This was a full grown dog btw, not a puppy.

So anyway, I feel like a total b*tch but I'm SUPER PROUD of my boy. He was very stressed — he wanted to bolt out of there, was breathing hard and doing a series of crying yelps — but he didn't take too long to recover. He was exhausted when we got home though and I admit I was shaking for a bit. I think I need my own counter-conditioning and desensitisation program.

Edited to add: Apologies for the super long essay. But anyway. Would you have done anything different with the ridgeback? Maybe I should have seen if I could get him to sit. I don't know. I felt I needed to get him away ASAP, which was probably true.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Papillon Kisses

[Two Best Dogs!]

I would have panicked and probably kicked the other dog so I think you handled it well! I'm glad Malcolm has recovered, surprised off leash dogs are the worst :'(

[Papillon Kisses]

I would have panicked and probably kicked the other dog so I think you handled it well! I'm glad Malcolm has recovered, surprised off leash dogs are the worst :'(

That makes me feel a lot better!

Yes, I hate people who don't have effective control of their dogs and let them rush because "they're friendly and just want to play!" Well your dog is actually being rude and you're breaking the law.

We eventually passed the house where the dog had came from. Two tradies were out the front packing their ute. They looked at me like I had three heads.

[Two Best Dogs!]

A little boast but look at this stand practice!

My link

We have wagging tail and confidence again I spent about 15 minutes with increments building up to this then look! A whole minute of a lawnmower going back and forth and she stays in her stand and gets praise/reward and realises no harm. She is smart and can do it with the right approach!

Hopefully can help build her an emotional buffer, if I end up having to go with the current class method. It is so hard telling a professional that I am not sure the current way works for this one I do not want to argue with them in front of class but I will if have to...

[Two Best Dogs!]

Class was cancelled today cause of the weather looks like it is very heavy rain down that end, it's just a light drizzle for me

At least I get a whole other week to keep helping thistle build up an emotional buffer! I thought about taking her to one of our stores today but honestly I'm kind of tired out from worrying over this. Hope I'm not pinning all my hopes on head trainer but he's been real awesome in our few solo-training sessions and the one class session. He says sometimes that the most important part of training is that it is fun! So I am hoping he sees how neither Thistle or I are having fun in class situation with that command...

(I am hanging around in the forum today tho...see...head trainer is same trainer as someone with some rottie pups is having over today ;) and I am curious to read what they do! But so far I am lots of respect for him. I haven't been saying his name in this thread though, as I do not want him to get a google alert for what is simply some confused and frustrated ramblings over a single command. Far better for us to work it out in person with clarification and not my stress rants. Especially since it is a different trainer I am confused with, not the head trainer! and I know my forum typing when upset is shit :laugh: )

Oh boy do I want to be in the head trainers class. Looks to be a very compatible flexible training style for us! All that stands in the way of it is stand)