Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Taliecat]

Hello, my name is Jake. I bark at other dogs. I have not done this for 176 hours. May the peanut butter be with you!!!!

Yay! Go Jake! And fantastic work hankdog

[Simply Grand]

Yay Jake!! Great job HD :)

I keep meaning to come back and post what I did with Riley, so here goes.

To start with I basically just tried to avoid dogs I thought would trigger him, then tried putting the lead on him and staying a bit closer to triggers and correcting with leash pops on a martingale collar but to be honest I'm not a big fan of physical punishment and although people use the term correction and say it's not a punishment the idea of it is to reduce an undesirable behaviour so it is a punisher.

Anyway, regardless of that debate Riley is such a sensitive dog that he isn't an ideal candidate for physical punishment even if it is useful in some cases. As I learnt more about dog behaviour it became really clear that he is actually quite unsure of other dogs and uncomfortable when another dog has its attention directly on him. So while he's fine being near other dogs running around etc when a dog approaches him directly, even of it's friendly he feels very worried. If the other dog is confident Riley won't react, he just stands there looking worried until it goes away but the ones he reacted to were invariably the less confident ones, particularly younger, less experienced ones and they would always back down and show submission when he carried on with his barking and snapping. So even though he was good at picking his targets and was probably pretty safe himself his reaction was being reinforced each time he did it and it was incredibly unfair to the dogs he was intimidating (even though plenty of owners of larger breeds than him thought it was funny when their dog was intimidated by a little barking fluffy ).

So, once I figured that out I switched to building a positive association with other dogs, so starting off whenever another dog came nearby I would just start talking to him to keep his attention on me and shoving treats in his mouth. Then I gradually increased the criteria so that the other dog had to be closer and closer before he started getting the treats and eventually we could have a trigger dog right there sniffing around him while he remained focused on me and getting the treats.

Then I started asking him to hold his attention on me while the other dogs were around but waiting til there had been some interaction (him glancing at the other dog then back to me, him staying focused on me while the other dog sniffed him) then I would give praise and run backwards calling him away THEN give him the treats. So that was the start of the sort of BAT angle, where he was learning that moving away from the other dog rather than reacting was rewarding, both in relieving the stress of the other dog and getting a food reward.

Then it became a matter of watching him closely and catching him in those moments where he has some little interaction with another dog then heaping on the excited praise from wherever I was standing and encouraging him over to me. I also started variable rewarding with the treats then so sometimes he gets a treat and sometimes just pats and praise.

So what he did the other day was him putting that process into play himself, without the prompts from me :)

It's still two steps forward, one back though. Last time we were at the park there were two sets of dogs (one a GSD and one a family of three SBTs, mum, dad and pup) that i was just not comfortable with and even though we stayed in the smaller fenced off side of the park from them Quinn and the GSD had some words through the fence and the SBTs ganged up and attacked another dog so there was tension in the air and Riley was a bit reactive towards dogs he's been fine with before so his stress level was obviously up.

Sorry for the long rambling post! Hopefully it makes sense, I'm on the iPhone as I need to recharge my proper Internet. Feel free to ask questions if things make no sense :laugh:

[BC Crazy]

Way to go Jake !!!!!! So now can you please teach Stella LOL.

You must be so wrapped Hankdog. You always work so very hard with him. Well done friend . Enjoy your success with great pride :)

[hankdog]

Cheated a bit because training is on Friday this week but then training takes him to his limits.

It's interesting you say other dogs were intimidated by Riley, even when Jake was really feral few dogs seem to find him intimidating, most want to have a go at him.

He mostly gives himself his own leash corrections if he lunges out. Nowadays if he seems to be getting stuck I do pop him on the leash. If he has dropped into his pre lunge position I give him a nudge in the behind, it seems to break his focus. I agree though I think major leash corrections add to the level of arousal, petrol on flames.

He's been doing so well lately, I think our last board train just nudged him along a bit. I also watched my trainers being quite firm with him in a group situation. He had a big go at another dog and instead of backing down Lynette just brought him under control and then carried on with where she was going. It sort of showed me to just stand my ground with him and expect him to get his act together.

Anyway I'm not counting anymore days, too stressful????.

[Simply Grand]

BTW, proper BAT needs to be in much more controlled circumstances than that. I would never recommend dealing with serious reactivity in a dog park situation with other people's dogs!

I only did it like that with Riley because he is ok being around other dogs generally and he can cope with his discomfort and recover well. I was also confident he wouldn't physically hurt another dog or be in real physical danger himself. I still pick and choose the other dogs he interacts with too so there are times when I'll decide nope, this is going to be too much of a risk and just get us out of there.

[Simply Grand]

I think so much depends on the personality of the partiular dog. There were some dogs we trained at the shelter that had strong personalities and you needed to be very firm with them. I do use physical means to restrain a dog or move them away when necessary but I also use my body language, tone of voice and "energy" (not to sound too much like Cesar but I do love his 'calm, assertive energy' mantra).

I figured out that Riley gets more distressed and aroused when on the lead in a challenging situation but he is calmer when I am holding him. He learnt to jump into my arms on cue as a trick and he loves doing it so I use that all the time if I want to get him out of a risky situation, call him excitedly and he runs and jumps then I can hold on to him and he stays calmer and quieter.

I don't know what exactly he reads in the dogs he reacts to. I can't necessarily pick that it's a young, less confident dog but I can only remember one time he reacted and the dog reacted back at him, and Quinn was actually being played with very roughly by that dog so I think he was trying to defend her. Every other time it's been dogs that roll over or run away. He must pick up on their energy.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Simply Grand

[grumpette]

Cheated a bit because training is on Friday this week but then training takes him to his limits.

It's interesting you say other dogs were intimidated by Riley, even when Jake was really feral few dogs seem to find him intimidating, most want to have a go at him.

He mostly gives himself his own leash corrections if he lunges out. Nowadays if he seems to be getting stuck I do pop him on the leash. If he has dropped into his pre lunge position I give him a nudge in the behind, it seems to break his focus. I agree though I think major leash corrections add to the level of arousal, petrol on flames.

He's been doing so well lately, I think our last board train just nudged him along a bit. I also watched my trainers being quite firm with him in a group situation. He had a big go at another dog and instead of backing down Lynette just brought him under control and then carried on with where she was going. It sort of showed me to just stand my ground with him and expect him to get his act together.

Anyway I'm not counting anymore days, too stressful????.

Yep leash corrections will take Dee over threshold in an instant. The same as saying "leave it". So if a dog is barking at her I say "watch" and use food. That way she is focused on me.

However, this does not work in a prey drive situation. My control is not good enough to effectively and consistently control her around small active dogs, in the bush or anywhere that rabbits and kangaroos are around. This is why she will never do agility and will only do off lead obedience around larger dogs. She is always on lead in these situations, even though we have trained at all breeds clubs for years amongst terriers and SWFs. When she is moving and focused on me she is brilliant. The stationary exercises I worry a bit. I think this is the main reason we have moved to Rally. More movement in close proximity to me. In Open there is more distance control and more room for error. This is the reason she is not allowed out of the house without a lead on. Too many dogs walk by the house that she will see as prey.

But the stupid thing is that at water training last weekend she had a black female lab in her face while she was tied up (as I was packing up her crate) and she just looked away in avoidance mode. She was not comfortable but did not react. I was right there and got the owner to move their dog away. I just don't get her sometimes. I really wish I knew what goes through her head sometimes. I am certain that we are dealing with two different issues. Defensive reactivity and prey drive.

Edited October 15, 2014 by grumpette

[dididog]

Haven't really been in this thread much recently...we had a 'bad' incident which rattled my confidence a bit. My Dad and I were having ice cream, sitting on a side street with Didi quite content to sit next to us while a few people walked past, we kept her close and she was fully focused on the ice cream. An old man(her worst demographic) all of a sudden saw us and made a beeline for Didi talking very loudly and kept coming despite me saying several times she does not like strangers, please stay away. I was in a bit of an awkward position and tried to get up but before I could the man reached us and she snarled at him. I immediately got up and removed her from the situation as a group of drunks happened to walk past at that moment and started yelling and hurling abuse at me as I left because my 'vicious' dog had attacked the poor old man (despite the fact she didn't try to touch him and was backing away) while the old man complained that he only wanted to say hello. My main priority was getting out of there and the old man moved on quickly, not that I really felt like apologising since I had asked him several times not to approach (we were out of the way, he had to purposely approach to get near us).

I was a bit mad at myself for not moving away earlier but I gave us a bit of a break from on lead walks and made her only experience with strangers good and now we are taking things very back to basics, one small step at a time. I think we lost any progress we had made but she was starting to pick it up so I think we can get back to where we were. I was at the offlead park today with a friend and a lady approached with her GSP and 8 year old daughter. The mother asked me about Didi and was patting her as Didi likes women and I could see her kid walking toward us so I told the mother Didi isn't good with kids and give her space. She said oh okay, sure and smiled at me. 5 seconds later her daughter reaches out and starts patting Didi. Luckily Didi didn't really realise it wasn't the woman patting her and that the daughter patted nicely but I called Didi away before she could notice and walked away from them. I just don't get it. She's a big dog who doesn't always like strangers, why would you touch her when I've made it quite clear not to? Why would you let your child touch her? I guess maybe because Didi was so lovey and affectionate with the mother that she just assumed that I was worried Didi might get too excited and knock her daughter over rather than be fearful of her daughter. Just cannot rely on other people doing what you ask, which is why I have to criss cross the street several times in a few minutes to avoid people. We got stuck today and it was awful. We walked past a house with a really low fence and this huge wolfy cross bounded up, I've met this dog at the park a few times and it's really rude and boisterous. Didi was not keen and wanted to walk past as quickly as possible but then a few houses down a woman parked her car and her children jumped out and were running around in their front yard screaming, so I went to cross the road only to see a man pacing up and down the street having an argument over the phone. There were so many triggers and Didi was getting really worked up so I just had to walk on the middle of the road and power through till we were in the clear.

In other news Didi held a sit stay while an offlead JR (in a not offlead area) rushed over and tried to entice her to play. She didn't even look at it until it started barking and stood on her tail. The man rushed over and apologised for distracting us and said Didi was very good and that his dog needed some training and he had previously walked past with his dog on lead and only let it off when they got to the off lead bit (the JR just ran back striaght away to say hi) so I didn't really mind. But another woman walked through this area, saw me training Didi onlead and let her beagle off which would've been fine if she kept it away from us but it approached us and wouldn't leave until the woman walked past us and told her dog to stop teasing my dog, it was onlead and he wasn't being fair and smiled at me. Yeah it's not fair (which was my reply) SO WHY WOULD YOU DELIBERATELY LET YOUR DOG OFFLEAD AND LET IT APPROACH MINE!? Glad I don't have to worry about DIdi with dogs too as we would barely be able to leave the house!

That was a bit of a long rant sorry but I haven't vented for a few weeks!

Edited October 15, 2014 by Terri S.

[Simply Grand]

Terri, I don't think you have any reason to be mad at yourself, you're doing a great job of working on Didi's issues. Unfortunately things just happen sometimes It really sucks that people can't respect what you ask them to do around your own dog. Then you're left either having to come across as a cranky crazy person by being really blunt and firm with people or deal with the consequences to your dog and possibly to them if they don't respond to your more polite requests

If I was you I would muzzle train Didi and have one on her when you're out in places where you're likely to run into people. It's ridiculously unfair that you'd have to resort to that but people are much more likely to avoid a large muzzled dog and to respect you when you ask them to steer clear.

If fitted well and introduced properly the muzzle doesn't need to be a big deal for Didi, it can just become part of the 'going out' routine like the lead going on.

Hope maddogdodge doesn't mind me sharing but here is a photo she shared in the Aussie thread of her boy wearing his muzzle, which he wears out and about.

http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/maddogdodge/media/10696367_867363099949799_8845372730121320259_n_zpse18655dd.jpg.html

[dididog]

Terri, I don't think you have any reason to be mad at yourself, you're doing a great job of working on Didi's issues. Unfortunately things just happen sometimes It really sucks that people can't respect what you ask them to do around your own dog. Then you're left either having to come across as a cranky crazy person by being really blunt and firm with people or deal with the consequences to your dog and possibly to them if they don't respond to your more polite requests

If I was you I would muzzle train Didi and have one on her when you're out in places where you're likely to run into people. It's ridiculously unfair that you'd have to resort to that but people are much more likely to avoid a large muzzled dog and to respect you when you ask them to steer clear.

If fitted well and introduced properly the muzzle doesn't need to be a big deal for Didi, it can just become part of the 'going out' routine like the lead going on.

Hope maddogdodge doesn't mind me sharing but here is a photo she shared in the Aussie thread of her boy wearing his muzzle, which he wears out and about.

http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/maddogdodge/media/10696367_867363099949799_8845372730121320259_n_zpse18655dd.jpg.html

Yeah definitely considering a muzzle... especially as it will get busier in summer around here and I can only have so many eyes in the back of my head and would rather people just stay away instead of me constantly actively avoiding them. I just worry that if she does anything like barks at someone or lunges at a bird or something while we're walking past someone and is wearing a muzzle that people will think she's dangerous and report us. I have worked out her main triggers which helps a lot. Old men and women, especially with canes, kids under the age of like 5/6 who run and scream and men who are yelling/making threatening gestures and little wheels like a scooter/skateboard, everyone else is fine and the few times people not in those trigger categories have trapped us and tried to pat her they have received a much milder response.

The girl that patted Didi didn't worry me too much as I'd seen her interacting nicely with the other dogs and was nice and quiet and Didi was not uncomfortable around her but I just didn't like the fact the woman didn't listen to me so couldn't be trusted. Our saving grace is that she is unaffected offlead so can still get exercised and our offlead areas are big enough to avoid people.

Definitely going to look into a new harness to tell people not to touch and a muzzle if that doesn't make a difference.

[JulesP]

Just have a no touching rule and be prepared for people to argue with you because they will!!!

I prevent Poppy from going up to people as she is super enthusiastic. The number of people that argued with me on a recent holiday was hilarious. I would be standing holding her and they would be assuring me it was ok for me to let go. Umm no. I explained to one old man that I didn't want him getting flattened and he said he didn't mind being flattened by collies which was sweet I guess.

Don't get one of those 'give me space' vests as they just make people come over and ask what is going on. A friend used one and it was a total disaster.

[dididog]

Just have a no touching rule and be prepared for people to argue with you because they will!!!

I prevent Poppy from going up to people as she is super enthusiastic. The number of people that argued with me on a recent holiday was hilarious. I would be standing holding her and they would be assuring me it was ok for me to let go. Umm no. I explained to one old man that I didn't want him getting flattened and he said he didn't mind being flattened by collies which was sweet I guess.

Don't get one of those 'give me space' vests as they just make people come over and ask what is going on. A friend used one and it was a total disaster.

My problem is that I want to avoid people trying to approach or stop us in the first place! Even that can freak Didi out a bit because she anticipates what comes next (which hopefully I will change overtime).

Interesting about your friend, I have heard the same thing from other people but her old harness I used before she outgrew it had 'no pats' and 'nervous' on it and we were given plenty of space. Maybe it's different depending on the dog? People are less likely to approach a large dog with issues than a smaller/more approachable breed?

I think the thing that helps the most is to just not stop moving. As soon as you are stopped you becoming easier to approach and less able to escape.

[hankdog]

Most people don't read Jakes harness but they say they see all the gear on him and that tells them to stay away. I think a muzzle acts the same way and if you're muzzled and people report you then you're fine. You're taking steps to prevent and incident. I worry a lot about being reported (I actually was once) but the Rangers assess the situation and they don't just jump in and label the "dangerous" dog. A woman with off leash dogs in an on leash area reported me, guess who got the warning!

[hankdog]

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Edited October 17, 2014 by hankdog

[JulesP]

Just have a no touching rule and be prepared for people to argue with you because they will!!!

I prevent Poppy from going up to people as she is super enthusiastic. The number of people that argued with me on a recent holiday was hilarious. I would be standing holding her and they would be assuring me it was ok for me to let go. Umm no. I explained to one old man that I didn't want him getting flattened and he said he didn't mind being flattened by collies which was sweet I guess.

Don't get one of those 'give me space' vests as they just make people come over and ask what is going on. A friend used one and it was a total disaster.

My problem is that I want to avoid people trying to approach or stop us in the first place! Even that can freak Didi out a bit because she anticipates what comes next (which hopefully I will change overtime).

Interesting about your friend, I have heard the same thing from other people but her old harness I used before she outgrew it had 'no pats' and 'nervous' on it and we were given plenty of space. Maybe it's different depending on the dog? People are less likely to approach a large dog with issues than a smaller/more approachable breed?

I think the thing that helps the most is to just not stop moving. As soon as you are stopped you becoming easier to approach and less able to escape.

Friend's dog is a very large Terv!

You just have to be very firm and put your hand up and say stop! Or no.

[Jemmy]

I thought we had been making great progress as she hadn't been barking back at dogs that were in their yards, but the nice weather has increased the amount of people out walking their dogs, and if we don't do our emergency u-turn in time, she still goes over threshold and lunges and barks at them

It's just so darn confusing for me, because we went to an all breeds dog show (just as a spectator) and she was confident and not reactive at all. Out on walks though, different dog! We've booked into a class specifically for reactive dogs, so I'm hopeful that will give us some help and direction...she's fine at obedience class though, so I'm not sure how it will go. If she's as calm and confident at reactive dog class as she is at obedience classes and shows, we might have to book in for some one on one training time.

On a happier note, we did an emergency u-turn during the week and I popped her in her crate in the car as we got to it before a side street, and when the gentleman walking his greyhounds drew level with me he let me know his dogs wouldn't have hassled her. I think he thought I was worried about his 2 beauties because they were muzzled. I was quick to explain it's not his 2 I was worried about, I just wanted to get through a walk without my girl barking at anyone :laugh:

How has everyone else been this week?

[dididog]

I thought we had been making great progress as she hadn't been barking back at dogs that were in their yards, but the nice weather has increased the amount of people out walking their dogs, and if we don't do our emergency u-turn in time, she still goes over threshold and lunges and barks at them

It's just so darn confusing for me, because we went to an all breeds dog show (just as a spectator) and she was confident and not reactive at all. Out on walks though, different dog! We've booked into a class specifically for reactive dogs, so I'm hopeful that will give us some help and direction...she's fine at obedience class though, so I'm not sure how it will go. If she's as calm and confident at reactive dog class as she is at obedience classes and shows, we might have to book in for some one on one training time.

Could it be maybe she's picking up on your nervousness/anticipation of her reacting when you go on a walk where you think she'll react versus when you're at obedience or similar where you know she's fine? I've come to find nothing influences the way Didi approaches a situation more than my state of mind going into it.

It sounds like you have made really good progress though, hopefully the classes will help, even if she is not being reactive in the class I'm sure it will still be useful! When our behaviourist came, Didi was pretty calm that day and wasn't scared of the behaviourist when she pretended to be a stranger walking down the street on our first meeting but we still managed to practice management techniques and found it extremely helpful.

We had an interesting experience last night, Didi came with me and my brother and Dad to pick up some takeaway up the road. On our way there some idiot kids came running out of the corner shop right past us and when the owner came out chasing them and yelling at them I realised they'd shoplifted something. Didi was initially a bit confused but otherwise seemed more intent on catching up with my brother and dad who'd kept walking ahead than being scared of all the running and yelling while normally she'd be trying to run away or start barking.

She then proceeded to munch on the Doritos from the bag the kids had dropped trying to run away from the shop owner

[Jemmy]

Lol, Luna would probably sell her soul for some Doritos!

She definitely could be amplifying based on my nerves, but all of her recent reactions are when I haven't seen the dog before her, so I was pretty relaxed. It gave me a fright because we came out of the street and there was a jack Russell approaching from the left and she reacted, so I've spun around to go right and there was an off lead Rotti coming that way! Back down our original street we went... We got stuck between another dog and the Rotti later in our walk, but I managed to hold enough distance from both to keep her under threshold, so I was very proud of her.

Definitely think it's time for professional help though - she's only 8 months old so if we can try and get it under control sooner rather than later, I'd be happy.

[hankdog]

Definitely get some help Jemmy, a stitch in time saves nine!

We had a fun experience on our walk today. A spaniel ran out of a driveway behind us as we walked past. I did the voice of God, it was a friendly enough dog but I was hoping for help.

After a while I reaised that no help was going to come and I was making more noise than Jake so I told myself to shut up and the dogs to sit down. Surprisingly everyone did as told. I threw the dog some treats and did some look and lick and then told Jake "let's go" and we were able to disengage quite easily. The dog followed us for about 200m but he was quite calm and Jake did his purposeful ignoring thing. So all good, I was a bit concerned about the straying dog but I really had no way to get close enough to do anything for him. It was a quiet street so I'm pretty sure he just wandered home. Pretty happy day for us.

[Jemmy]

Jake sounds like he's doing really well!!

We went to our first reactive dogs class today, I feel so much better now. It's not really different to what I've been doing anyway, but it means that I'm not doing it alone and I can relax while working with her because I know the other dogs are aware of us too and aren't going to barge in all of a sudden :)