Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Simply Grand]

I use the 'leave it' command quite often with Stella & it seems to be very effective in breaking her focus on the on coming dog or whatever it may be that she is about to react to. She is given a simple obedience command such as sit/down facing me & is rewarded. When I feel she calm then we continue on.

Simply Grand may I ask why you don't like using the 'leave it' command out of curiosity?

Just sitting down quietly when we are out & about is a work in progress for us. I'm gradually lengthening the time each time we do this. She has really improved though. This is a very difficult task for Stel just to be well, still for any length of time. We can sit together now & just people watch in a quieter area now & she relaxes on a good day. She is not the type of dog you could take to an outdoor cafe or anything. She'd be like a bull in a china shop Stella just wouldn't be comfortable. Lots of noise & people just stress her out a lot. She would just unravel emotionally very quickly.

:laugh: sorry I just realised what I did! When I said SG, I was referring to Susan Garrett (MRB has been doing recallers)! But that was a bit silly of me considering Simply Grand had just posted :laugh:

Sorry for the confusions BC Crazy!

In case you re interested, Susan Garrett doesn't like saying 'leave it' because commands in themselves are often reinforcing (we have paired them with reinforcement so often) so in effect you may be rewarding the dog getting distracted by saying 'leave it'. Some dogs learn these behaviour chain very. very quickly. It was why I asked you whether you might be recalling Stella when she is rushing towards another dog, as if you do this Stella might be deliberately running towards a dog so that you can recall her and she gets a treat.

Hahaha, I figured out who you meant after initially going "huh?" I see SG's point, Quinn does that with jumping on people, because I've rewarded her for not jumping up when she greets people if she decides she might like a treat she'll run towards them, NOT jump on them then run straight back to me expecting her reward :laugh:

I don't mind "leave it" but I think it might be difficult to introduce with Frosty at this stage because she already has an established high value for other dogs (either positive if she likes them and wants to play or negative if she doesn't like them and wants to aggress). She becomes highly aroused when she sees other dogs now and her brain will be very active trying to figure how to react so to override that with a cue once she's already seen the other dog will be difficult.

I'd concentrate on teaching a behaviour pattern that avoids engagement with other dogs at all (as opposed to seeing the other dog then having to focus on the cue Mrs RB is giving to "leave it" then responding to that cue). So Mrs RB, you'd need to be on high alert for other dogs all the time and initiate a behaviour pattern that is incompatible with reacting to the other dog before Frosty has a chance to register that it's there, and reward her highly keeping focus on you. Then you're also preventing the reinforcement she gets from interacting (positively or negatively) with other dogs.

Once you've desensitised her to other dogs a bit, taught her an alternative behaviour and built a reward history for paying attention to you under the distraction of another dog you can start to re-introduce some interaction with other dogs, build her confidence and teach more appropriate greeting behaviours.

At the moment I don't think she's seeing you as part of her relationship with other dogs which means she's left to fend for herself, resulting in her either aggressing or running up and grovelling, neither of which are the behaviours of a confident dog.

Sorry for the probably confusing post, it's so much easier to talk about this kind of stuff in person!!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi all

Thanks for all the objective perspectives on it.

I agree with the Amstaff long legged staffy thing - I broke all my own rules about allowing Frosty to greet dogs that are pulling on lead - always a bad idea. Ie despite her willingness - I should have controlled the situation and prevented the greeting. Would have been easy...

And rehearsals of the behaviour are bad. I can prevent - if I see the dog coming first - which isn't what happened when I was sitting to have breakfast at my friend's place. We had completed a long and incident free walk on the beach - and then were invited to lunch at a place that sort of fronts onto the beach but there is a path between the beach and the house. I'm pretty sure Frosty regards this as "her place". So she's territorial about it like she is at home. I didn't see the trigger dogs coming, because I was chatting with my friends and eating breakfast. She has actually stayed overnight at this house so she really regards it as "hers". And given I walked there - I didn't have the crate or the harness. I think my friends would take a dim view of locking her up too (pretty sure we'd get a lot of barking as well). So I'd either have to keep a better watch (eyes in the back of my head), or not go to breakfast with my friends at that house ever again.

At home if we went out the front and she saw anybody - she'd react - and I'd keep going allowing her to continue to react but she couldn't do anything except complain because she is all harnessed up. Now, if she reacts at the front door - we go back inside. Or if I've gotten to the gate - we go around behind the car or into the back yard or as far as it takes for her to get her self control back (under threshold). And this is helping a bit. As long as I am consistent.

At the park, and sometimes at the beach - even if we're on lead - I don't have control over other dogs and their owners - as long as I see them first I can sort of deal but sometimes it's impossible. We got followed out of the park by one black spaniel that she HATED... the owner was calling it but it didn't go back to the owner... I did keep Frosty's attention on moving away so she didn't actually go TAR (over threshold or "Too Aroused to Respond").

So I agree - I do need to be more consistent. And I should probably use the training opportunity that home time at home presents ie if I can teach her better behaviour out the front of the house, that should help elsewhere.

At the moment is really interesting but my voice is completely gone. I'm pairing treats with a whistle and hand signals for recall (always had hand signals)... I couldn't say "leave it" and if she's TAR - she's not going to notice anyway. Was reasonably pleased with the first dog at breakfast - she kept her distance, it was all warning, but I'd rather she didn't do it at all.

And she back chains everything. Really fast. So frustrating.

[Simply Grand]

Unfortunately you do kinda need to grow eyes in the back of your head if you want to modify a reactive dog's behaviour!

With her reactivity at the house, could you try engaging her in some active training (heeling, stopping to sit, direction changes) before you even start? So you get her engaged and focusing on you before you open the door? Then you're again preventing her from rehearsing the undesirable behaviour.

I think you could be having trouble with her back chaining because you're not catching her early enough. She doesn't need to start reacting in order for you to implement your training strategies, you can start when she's well under threshold when you know or suspect a trigger is imminent.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Snook

Nehkbet offered to help if I could get video of it but so far I've not been able to. I actually set video up by the front door - but she didn't react to anything. Just lay down and went to sleep - despite my bowl of porridge unattended next to her.

And at the park - it's also impossible to get video... because if she doesn't react - there's nothing to video and if she does react - I can't video and usually can't get my friends to do it either but if we were that well set up - we would be preventing anyway. Sigh.

My best chance of getting some video is to set it up out the front of our house...

So I've been thinking about getting a trainer but not sure how to set things up so they know what I'm dealing with. We can go days without any episodes, all good and polite. I can't be sure when the main trigger dogs will show up at the park... given that most of those cause problems with every dog not just Frosty - they don't come too often.

The dvd sounds like a good idea. Would like to see that.

Sometimes I think I should carry a large black pillow slip and stick that over her head so she can't see anything...

[hankdog]

Terri if you don't have an actual crate can you create a crate like area for her. The point of a crate is a kind of safe den, Jake goes and sits right in the corner under my sons desk if I go out and he has a bean bag and stuff to get into. It's kind of a kids ideal fort, she might feel comfortable having a safe cave. Dogs don't really care we bought them a real crate I think it's more the security of that closed in feeling.

Mrs RB with Jake Steve said that since his decisions were rubbish I needed to write a new script for him that is rehearsed. We have a very regimented rehearsed approach to seeing stuff. Frosty isn't as nutso but it might help to give her a script that you run regardless of the dog. She doesn't get to decide, you tell her how it goes each and every time.

[raineth]

Grumpette, that is a beautiful photo <3

[BC Crazy]

Grumpete , as always your dogs never fail to delight GORGEOUS !!!

[raineth]

I felt so bad the other day I had some friends over on Friday night for a birthday dinner and while we normally have strangers over a fair bit with no issue it's usually only 1 or 2 at a time and anyway I heard my friends at the front gate and went to open the door and Didi ran into the hallway barking her 'hey somebody's outside bark'. I'd put her lead on just in case so I asked her to back up and opened the door and my friends yelled happy birthday (really should have briefed them before hand) and instead of turning into happy tail wag sniffy sniff puppy like she normally would when I let people in the front door she started up her 'I'm a big bad puppy' bark.

I told all my friends to completely ignore her and asked them to go into the kitchen while I took Didi into my bedroom and got her to sit and decided to take her lead of incase that was making her feel weird and that way she could just move away from us if she was scared. I let her off and she followed me into the kitchen and started sniffing my friends but had her tail right between her legs and even though I said for everyone to ignore her until she calmed down one of my friends started patting her and she wet herself!

Normally if she is scared of somebody she moves as far away as possible and she could've easily moved away but she kept slinking around my friends sniffing them with her tail tucked so I think she was just nervous and excited rather than straight up scared. There was also none of the growling or barking that usually accompanies people breaching her comfort zone apart from the initial entrance and once when one of my friends screamed about something which is fair enough, our household is generally quiet and I told everyone to keep their voices down after that. Once she calmed down a bit my friend who Didi is most familiar with kneeled down and had a chat to her and after that Didi followed her around and lay down at her feet while we made dinner. For the rest of the night she was pretty much fine, everyone could pat her and she lay down calmly at my feet while we ate dinner. I think she was just initially very overwhelmed and stressed out but it kind of caught me off guard and everything kind of fell out of my mind management wise so I just stressed that everyone be calm and ignore her.

I am having a party with around 40+ people next week though (was meant to be the weekend that just past but had to change it) and while I wasn't intending on having Didi roaming around I am a lot more worried about it now. The plan was to tire her out completely and set her up in the garage with my brother and a big bone and a kong and she can just hang out in the back part of our house which is separate from the party area. I would leave her with someone that night but the only person I would leave her with is coming to the party. Dad might take her for a night walk if she's getting too stressed. I kind of want to cancel the whole thing because I'm worried about her.

I love the puppy but I am so worried about making her reactivity worse or her hurting someone and that's the opposite of what I need to be doing at the moment.

On the plus side we went to a DOL meet up this weekend and she got lots of cuddles from some people she's only met once or twice and took it all in her stride and she played so nicely with another horse puppy which kind of cheered me up, seeing how great she is with other dogs made me forget about our other problems for a bit.

awww poor Didi it does sound as though she was very scared.

I think separating her for the party may be a very good idea.

The other thing I think you should consider doing based on this behaviour is train Didi to go to a certain area when you get a knock at the door.

In my experience of breeds that have guarding heritage (which Danes and msatiffs do) they often feel like they must make the decision about who is allowed in the house. This is highly stressful for them, as they are big softy-pants compared to what they once were, and they know that often people are allowed in so they are really unsure.

We had this with Digby, when we first got him. We instigated a contingency that was go to the crate when there is a knock at the door. This let him know that he didn't need to potentially protect the house, and that the humans would decide who came in or not. This took so much stress off him and he was much happier for it. After a bit of time it didn't matter any more. He would never bark when someone came to the door (unless it was the Jehovah's Witness and he would give one bark from the window and they would run back down the drive) and would stand behind me relaxed and interested to see who had come to the door.

This was the protocol I instigated straight away with Del, and she also never even barks when someone comes to the door but sits and waits, as she understands it's not up to her to make the decision about whether someone should be allowed in or not.

But anyway, talk to Judy about it ofcourse, as she is the one working with you and Didi. But that's just what I have found about owning dogs with guarding heritage.

[raineth]

eta: sorry! had a brain malfunction :)

Edited September 16, 2014 by raineth

[Canisbellum]

Jonah now,I still have to watch him a bit especially if the other dogs exhibit dominating behavior as he wont tolerate that but he is a different dog to how he used to be.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Canetoad

[dididog]

Terri if you don't have an actual crate can you create a crate like area for her. The point of a crate is a kind of safe den, Jake goes and sits right in the corner under my sons desk if I go out and he has a bean bag and stuff to get into. It's kind of a kids ideal fort, she might feel comfortable having a safe cave. Dogs don't really care we bought them a real crate I think it's more the security of that closed in feeling.

The closest thing she has to a den is under the covers of my bed... she does have a trampoline bed tucked in the corner of my room which is more or less enclosed on three sides, might try hanging a blanket over the top and make a fort. Normally if Didi want to give herself some time out she'll go and sleep on my bed or her bed in my room and if I go out and am leaving her inside, that's where I'll find her.

awww poor Didi it does sound as though she was very scared.

I think separating her for the party may be a very good idea.

The other thing I think you should consider doing based on this behaviour is train Didi to go to a certain area when you get a knock at the door.

In my experience of breeds that have guarding heritage (which Danes and msatiffs do) they often feel like they must make the decision about who is allowed in the house. This is highly stressful for them, as they are big softy-pants compared to what they once were, and they know that often people are allowed in so they are really unsure.

We had this with Digby, when we first got him. We instigated a contingency that was go to the crate when there is a knock at the door. This let him know that he didn't need to potentially protect the house, and that the humans would decide who came in or not. This took so much stress off him and he was much happier for it. After a bit of time it didn't matter any more. He would never bark when someone came to the door (unless it was the Jehovah's Witness and he would give one bark from the window and they would run back down the drive) and would stand behind me relaxed and interested to see who had come to the door.

This was the protocol I instigated straight away with Del, and she also never even barks when someone comes to the door but sits and waits, as she understands it's not up to her to make the decision about whether someone should be allowed in or not.

But anyway, talk to Judy about it ofcourse, as she is the one working with you and Didi. But that's just what I have found about owning dogs with guarding heritage.

Yeah I will talk to Judi about it when I check in with her next, we've already been working on a way to curb her warning barking. Personally I like Didi to alert to someone outside, we live in a relatively dodgy suburb near a halfway house and our suburb has a pretty high drug addict prevalence. My mum is home alone all day and often has to answer the door to strangers so we want her to bark but what we've been working on with Judi is working in a 'thank you' command that lets her know that she can stop barking, that we've deemed the stranger okay and it's no longer up to her to carry on. Pretty much whenever she barks at someone she can see outside, we call her and give her a reward and say thank you which means her job is over and the barking must stop (it's a bit more complex than that but that's the vague idea). Eventually we could be able to get to the point where if she sees a stranger she will come find us by her own accord, which I'd rather have than her ignoring a stranger's presence if that makes sense, so similar to what you've suggested I guess with desensitising and taking the responsibility off their shoulders, so that she knows her job doesn't extend any further than letting us know someone is there.

But her behaviour and the behaviour of the people coming inside was really different and unexpected and I forgot all about how I was supposed to handle it

That guarding instinct has always been very innate in Didi. I remember we'd had her for all of two days and my parents came home late and even though she was flat out asleep and at the other end of the house, as soon as my parents put their key in the lock she shot up and did a big bark. I think it was the first time we heard her bark actually and it scared the crap out of me because it was so big and deep and coming out of such a tiny little baby!

Next week after the party I might ask some people to come over and do some drills so I become more used to the motions.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Terri S.

[raineth]

That sounds like an excellent plan Terri, and something that suits what you want :) yeah it's all about letting them know where their responsibility ends :)

Oh Terri, I was just going to say that you don't even need to invite people over to practice at first. Just have one of you sneak out and knock on the door a few minutes later :)

Edited September 16, 2014 by raineth

[Canisbellum]

How did Jonah use to be and what work did you do with him to get him to a point where he can meet strange dogs without reacting?

Jonah would turn into Cujo if a strange dog ran up to him. If they were calm he would either start trying to dominate it by mounting, growling nipping and putting his feet on its back or he would attack it especially dogs bigger than him.

Then he settled down a bit and would only charge up to them stare them in the eyes and growl sometimes playfully. Needless to say he got bitten a few times until I stopped taking him to dog parks.

On lead he would pull to get to them and then turn into cujo if they came near him, dogs barking behind fences etc would also get an immediate attack response.

All in all it was pretty stressful especially when peoples off lead dogs would run up to us on walks.

The cure? Lots of walks making sure I was always between him and other dogs and people, standing on his toes (accidentally)if he lunged across in front of me just talking to him and praising him if he stayed calm.

Then I started taking him to obedience classes so he could meet dogs under controlled conditions that seemed to make the biggest difference and pretty much stopped the on leash aggression.

Then I started taking him to dog parks again sticking close to him and reprimanding him and taking him home immediately he misbehaved. He still acts up with certain dogs if he gets bored and with any dog that tries to dominate him but I have learned to read the signs and break the staring up before he reacts most times.

I also take him home before he gets bored and looks for mischief.

It hasn't been quick its been about 18 months to get him to where he is now.

[hankdog]

Terri I do the Thankyou thing with Jake. He's very good at it, careful of the back chaining. He will now have a quick bark and come find me if he wants a treat. I actually don't mind it when he starts using stuff I taught him to his own advantage, I take it as a sign he understands and has confidence enough to try offering behaviour.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

tonight's report - all good...

Went to the park - walked with some friends - kept evil hound on lead because there was sports training on and kids in the playground and on the bmx track (a new source of food) ie too many distractions and foraging opportunities.

saw some likely trigger dogs and kept her attention away from them, she noticed one of them and I got her attention back on me - good dog keep moving... didn't allow any kind of greeting. And there was a oodle x puppy pulling on lead which we avoided altogether. I don't think trying to say hello to that one would have gone well. And I don't think Frosty noticed it which was good.

And I resisted the temptation to do another lap when some more friends showed up. And avoided the group of big dogs (kelpies, grs, labs) playing together while their owners ignored them.

[Jemmy]

Mrs RB, great to hear you had a good outing!

Not as good for us this morning, we came around a corner and there was a lady walking her dog in the middle of the road... We couldn't cross the road to get some distance obviously, and I wasn't quick enough in my decision to keep moving forward or turn around. I had my treats and tennis ball in my hands, so that was working well, but she ended up hitting threshold and getting a couple of woofs out. I'm pretty confident that had I just powered on in one direction or the other she would have been fine, but I dithered

Handler error, I'll have to get up a bit earlier so my brain isn't so foggy at the start of our walk!

[BC Crazy]

Don't beat yourself up too much Jemmy. Everything is always so 'crystal clear' in hindsight. When you are in the moment things seem to happen so very quickly. I think you went very well all things considered :)

I just usually do a U turn & head off in the opposite direction & pick up the pace a bit.

Had a similar thing happen to us the other day. Brain was still waking up. I had just left home with my 2. Got about half a block away & there, smack bang in the middle of the road was a German Shepard. Gorgeous dog. But I wont lie I was terrified. I didn't know if he was aggressive or not.

Obviously got out from somewhere, no owner in sight & he is heading directly for us Before I knew both my guys were going off their nut at him. I was worried he was going to get run over as he ran on & off the road. Lucky for us a very kind guy who was driving past, saw what was happening. He jumped out of his car & called the stray Shep over to him. He turned out to be the nicest dog & just wanted a game. Anyway before long the owner came & collected him.

Terrible handler error here. I gave my guys no direction at all...I should of done something like turned in opposite direction or something. Instead I froze with fear. Played out what I 'thought' was going to happen in my mind. I over thought, was totally wrong & ended up doing nothing as I let my fears take over.

This happened quite a while ago & thank goodness I do think my handling skills have improved since then. Also am much more focused & aware of my surrounding at all times.

It's all part of the huge learning curve IMHO

Edited September 18, 2014 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

Well done MRB

[hankdog]

Jemmy a couple of woofs aren't the end of the world. I think practice at going from woof to control is a good thing. I make sure I never leave a situation in fear or panic. So if we have a freak out I get him calm, I might need to yell at the other dog but never at Jake. He gets his stern "uh-uh" and a growly "no". Then he gets to sit and look at whatever and then we walk away. If it's an off leash that an owners come to grab I figure they owe me and I ask them to hold their dog while we leave. It's ok to make your dog their problem if their dog stirred him up being off leash in my opinion. I just say something about my dog has social problems and it's important this situation ends well for him otherwise your dog rushing him will make him more fearful next time. Most people are normally obliging or so gob smacked they'll stay for a bit anyway. Once your dog has reacted it's important the other dog doesn't leave otherwise he learns the way to get the other dog to go away is to react. Better he learns that the other dog isn't that awfully scary and that he leaves only when he's calm.

Of course if it's all gone to hell in a handbag then just scarper as best you can.

[BC Crazy]

Yes HD, very true. A couple of woofs is Stella on a good day :laugh: