Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[BarbedWire]

Snook I hope you don't mind me coming in on this thread.

You need to realise that you have got on top of his reactivity before and you can do it again. You did such a great job. If only the two bigger dogs had not lunged first.

I wonder if when they lunged you were taken off guard and reacted tensely and Justice then responded to your stressed reaction. I know this is what happens to me. I have to calm down or my dog steps in to protect me. My dog responds to my reaction. It's easier said than done I know.

[The Spencinator]

After a lovely day out having lunch down at the beach with Justice and my mum I ended up spending part of the drive home in tears. I stopped off to pick up some food for him on the way and Justice came in with me, as he always does. As soon as we walked through the doors we had two Irish Wolfhounds standing just inside the door, straining on their leashes to get to him and the teenage boy left in control of them barely being able to hang on to their leashes and not able to stop them from dragging him toward us. Of course, Justice cracked and everyone in the stood was staring at us and saying things like "ohhhh" and "oh my god". I wasn't very polite when I told the boy that perhaps he shouldn't have two huge dogs if he couldn't control them. His Dad was at the counter and cracked at the kid and told him to wait further back in the shop. I ignored all the "look at the vicious dog" looks and, after asking a staff member for my order that had been put aside, stood well out of everyone's way while I waited for her to come back. When she gets to the counter with the order and calls me over a woman who saw Justice and the Wolfhounds have a spat walks just behind me carrying her small fluffy dog. Justice and I get to counter and she stops right bloody next to us and puts her dog down less than a foot from Justice, trapping Justice between the dog and the counter. I'm in the process of saying something not so polite to the woman about putting her dog down right next to Justice when he cracks and again, I'm the horrible woman with the horrible dog. Thankfully the staff member serving me was lovely and understanding and said she completely got why I was upset and that she's constantly amazed at what dog owners do and their inability to give other dogs any kind of space, even though it's a huge, spacious shop. I'm just so angry and frustrated and upset that Justice is having to experience stress like this again, all because someone I trusted to look after him didn't, and that over two years of hard work is down the toilet. I honestly don't think I have it in me to go through this again. It's too much for me right now and I don't think I can give Justice what he needs.

So sorry to hear you had a day like this if tears equaled progress then I'm sure all of us would be a lot further along in dealing with our dogs' issues! Silver lining is that now hopefully those 2 sets of people will be more careful in future.

I saw someone else mention medication. I'm getting Spencer assessed by Adelaide Veterinary Behaviour Services in September mainly to see if medication would be worth it for him. Spencer sounds similar to Justice in that he is very chilled and not phased by much other than dogs so it will be interesting to see if they think medication will help. Otherwise I hope they can give me some more pointers. We seem to have reached a plateau where I can have Spencer focussed on me in the presence of other (under control) dogs but he's still seriously stressed and not trustworthy...

I also completely reject the fact that you can't give Justice what he needs. He's lucky to have you as a mum :)

[hankdog]

I'll play devils advocate here. I've often been told PTS and I've sort of mentally given my self permission that if I can't cope then I can't and that's that. It was actually quite stress relieving in a way. So whilst I'm not actually suggesting that you should only you know your own circumstances.

Owning a dog should be pleasurable, if it's not then there are options. My personal thoughts are that if I thought I would be better able to cope with how freaked out I'd be after PTS than how freaked out I an living with him then that's what I'd do.

I'm overseas at the moment and Jake is in kennels. I put him in rather than leave him with OH because I have so much confidence in the care his trainers give him. The burden that is Jake has been halved by having the backup of a great trainer and kennels that he is happy and known in. If that was now taken away from me I would find it very hard to be on my "own" again and shoulder that burden completely. I truly sympathise with you Snook.

[Simply Grand]

I'll play devils advocate here. I've often been told PTS and I've sort of mentally given my self permission that if I can't cope then I can't and that's that. It was actually quite stress relieving in a way. So whilst I'm not actually suggesting that you should only you know your own circumstances.

Owning a dog should be pleasurable, if it's not then there are options. My personal thoughts are that if I thought I would be better able to cope with how freaked out I'd be after PTS than how freaked out I an living with him then that's what I'd do.

I'm overseas at the moment and Jake is in kennels. I put him in rather than leave him with OH because I have so much confidence in the care his trainers give him. The burden that is Jake has been halved by having the backup of a great trainer and kennels that he is happy and known in. If that was now taken away from me I would find it very hard to be on my "own" again and shoulder that burden completely. I truly sympathise with you Snook.

I agree with you hankdog and I think it's an important thing to consider (not necessarily for you Snook if that's not where you're at, but for anyone dealing with a dog with issues). Remember as well that any time a dog is reacting negatively it is physically and mentally in a state of distress so in a case of a dog requiring regular intensive management with an owner regularly worrying about that you have an unhappy dog AND unhappy human for some portion of their lives.

I really believe that a calm and pain free euthanasia is far from the worst thing that can happen to a dog and if you can give them an enjoyable, happy and loving time at the end it can be a very trauma-free experience for the dog, and a sad but again not traumatic experience for the human.

Bear in mind that many shelter dogs that have behaviour issues are euthanised because on objective assessment it is found to be just not fair to put people or the dog in the position of having to deal with the dog's issues

Having said all that, it's a very personal decision when you're talking about your own dog and certainly not something anyone not directly involved in the situation has any right to involve themselves in (not that you did that hankdog, just don't want it to sound like I'm particularly advocating PTS for dogs with behaviour issues!)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Simply Grand

[huski]

I really believe that a calm and pain free euthanasia is far from the worst thing that can happen to a dog

I struggle with this because I just can't agree that death is 'far from the worst thing' that can happen to a dog. If we could ask the dog if it would prefer life, or death, how many do you really think would say 'I'd rather be dead please'?

I understand why people choose PTS for dogs with behaviourial problems especially aggression, and I think especially in situations where there is a high risk that even with management the dog could hurt or kill a person or another dog or itself, PTS is an option that may need to be considered for the safety and well being of other people/animals.

I am not in any way saying PTS is wrong or a bad choice, but I would struggle to accept it as the best option for the dog in every case. It is a horrible decision to have to make, and I feel for anyone in that position.

Edited August 1, 2014 by huski

[teekay]

I'll play devils advocate here. I've often been told PTS and I've sort of mentally given my self permission that if I can't cope then I can't and that's that. It was actually quite stress relieving in a way. So whilst I'm not actually suggesting that you should only you know your own circumstances.

Owning a dog should be pleasurable, if it's not then there are options. My personal thoughts are that if I thought I would be better able to cope with how freaked out I'd be after PTS than how freaked out I an living with him then that's what I'd do.

I'm overseas at the moment and Jake is in kennels. I put him in rather than leave him with OH because I have so much confidence in the care his trainers give him. The burden that is Jake has been halved by having the backup of a great trainer and kennels that he is happy and known in. If that was now taken away from me I would find it very hard to be on my "own" again and shoulder that burden completely. I truly sympathise with you Snook.

Well said Hankdog, I think it is something that most of us with reactive dogs will have thought about. If you have tried all other options and life is so stressful I do think PTS is a viable option but living with the guilt would be hard. I'm not saying anyone should feel guilty but I'm sure we would. The bolded bit is well thought out.

I really believe that a calm and pain free euthanasia is far from the worst thing that can happen to a dog

I struggle with this because I just can't agree that death is 'far from the worst thing' that can happen to a dog. If we could ask the dog if it would prefer life, or death, how many do you really think would say 'I'd rather be dead please'?

I understand why people choose PTS for dogs with behaviourial problems especially aggression, and I think especially in situations where there is a high risk that even with management the dog could hurt or kill a person or another dog or itself, PTS is an option that may need to be considered for the safety and well being of other people/animals.

I am not in any way saying PTS is wrong or a bad choice, but I would struggle to accept it as the best option for the dog in every case. It is a horrible decision to have to make, and I feel for anyone in that position.

I don't think SG was in any way saying pts was the "best option in every case" but when you consider the abuse some dogs go through then I would agree, death is not "the worst thing can happen to a dog". May depend on your thoughts around death I suppose.

[huski]

I don't think SG was in any way saying pts was the "best option in every case" but when you consider the abuse some dogs go through then I would agree, death is not "the worst thing can happen to a dog". May depend on your thoughts around death I suppose.

Oh I wasn't implying she was, I am just saying I don't believe PTS is always the better option.

I didn't think we were talking about dogs that were severely abused, but dogs with behaviourial problems.

Personally it would have to be an extreme case where I would feel the dog was suffering so much to the point where they would no longer want to live any more.

Edited August 1, 2014 by huski

[teekay]

I don't think SG was in any way saying pts was the "best option in every case" but when you consider the abuse some dogs go through then I would agree, death is not "the worst thing can happen to a dog". May depend on your thoughts around death I suppose.

Oh I wasn't implying she was, I am just saying I don't believe PTS is always the better option.

I didn't think we were talking about dogs that were severely abused, but dogs with behaviourial problems.

Personally it would have to be an extreme case where I would feel the dog was suffering so much to the point where they would no longer want to live any more.

This thread is about dogs with behavioural problems but I got the impression SGs comment was more in general.

[Guest hankodie]

I haven't been in here for ages! I hope everyone and their pups are doing well

I just wanted to come here to praise Steve @ k9pro who we went and saw a couple of months ago. I have been working with Odie and her reactivity issues since she was a pup and we've tried every method under the sun with very little to no long lasting improvement.

Last Wednesday for the first time I was able to take her to my weekly dog walking class (which i usually attend with Hank) and she ignored the other dogs the entire time (around 10 of them!) She wasn't interested in any of them but did have a couple of polite sniffs after checking in with me.

In the end she was even able to sit down with the group while the humans had their coffee and chatted. Totally relaxed and not stressed, just chilling out at my feet in the sun, ignoring everything and everyone around her. A few months ago this scenario would have just never, ever ever happened and its thanks to Steve and his help that we were able to achieve it.

So for those who have been thinking/debating on whether or not to make a booking I think you absolutely totally should! He will provide you with the tools you need and point you in the right direction. We've made some huge progress so far and have quite a bit more work ahead of us but I've never been this optimistic about her behaviour issues and I have been finally starting to enjoy my time with her (and she has been enjoying her time with me!) and it means the world to me.

Just thought I'd share!

[huski]

HO What an awesome update, progress like yours is only possible when you follow the program and put the work in, well done

[megan_]

Sometimes it isn't just about how the dog is coping , it is how the human is coping to. It's not like you can just rehome a dog with issues. People shouldn't have to endure 10 years of misery because the adopters dog. I'm not talking about myself or anyone here BTW.

I love Lucy very much and she fits into my lifestyle quite well. If I had children though there is no doubt in my mind that she would be PTS. She just isn't stable enough to be around an unpredictable child and supervision and management wouldn't be enough. If people want to judge me on that then so be it.

[huski]

Sometimes it isn't just about how the dog is coping , it is how the human is coping to. It's not like you can just rehome a dog with issues. People shouldn't have to endure 10 years of misery because the adopters dog. I'm not talking about myself or anyone here BTW.

I love Lucy very much and she fits into my lifestyle quite well. If I had children though there is no doubt in my mind that she would be PTS. She just isn't stable enough to be around an unpredictable child and supervision and management wouldn't be enough. If people want to judge me on that then so be it.

I agree it can definitely impact badly on owners, and I do believe there are occasions where PTS is justifiable or sometimes the best option for keeping others safe. However I find it difficult morally to justify PTS by saying the dog is happier, or better off, or that there are worse things. I don't know how we can really ascertain with certainty how the dog will feel or what choice they would make if given one. That is just my personal POV though, it is a morally grey area for me.

Snook I know how important Justice is to you and how much he helps you and I can only imagine how much harder it would make it for you to deal with your depression etc when things are hard with him. Sorry again to hear this has happened

Edited August 1, 2014 by huski

[persephone]

oh Snook I am SO sorry you and the gorgeous mr Joostice had such a horrible horrible encounter . (insert expletives) . you both have to work so hard , every day .

take a half step back - breathe ..and maybe you & the gorgeous boy have a doona day or two ..lots of rest & treats & nice thoughts . Easier said than done , believe me ... however I wish you calm .....

[hankdog]

I can still get voodoo-doll stick-pin thoughts about a teacher than let down my daughter some years ago. It's somehow worse when it's a loved one dependent upon another's care that is not treated correctly. Especially in Justice case where he can't talk and tell you what happened.

I guess the thought of going through the whole process again must be akin to the thought of taking on a reactive dog for a second time. You have the knowledge and skills but that knowledge means you know how hard it is. It did sound like Amy's dogs were quite unique and I had serious Koda envy. I hope you can find another dog to guide Justice to trust again.

[BC Crazy]

I have been trying to play catch up on this thread atm... lots happening by the look.

Snook, Belated huge sorry to you reading about the incident at the pet store. There's no doubt in my mind that the owners of the big Irish wolf hounds were soley to blame. Leaving a young boy to take care of 2 dogs, especially of that size is idiotic & clueless IMHO. If it's any consolation Snook, Stella would of reacted the exact same way. She would of cracked it, 'big time' in the same circumstance. Without a doubt, the moment those dogs were attempting to approach she would have flipped out, become very aggressive & basically turned the shop into sheer kaos. World war 111 would have broken out in a split second

You do so well with Justice. He has come such a long way all thanks to you. Reactive dogs are never easy. They are usually unpredictable but what is more unpredictable are other people & their dogs as well. So we really have the double whammy effect happening & that's where it becomes even more tricky.

Please don't blame yourself. You did your very best & always do, & that's all you can do. Be kind to yourself now. Take some time for you, you deserve it

[JulesP]

Poppy would have cracked it in the shop too. She isn't super noisy about it (no barking) but does look fairly feral and air snaps.

I wouldn't take her into a shop like that unless I wanted to try a coat or something on her. Just isn't worth the hassle.

Other people being silly probably causes me more issues than anything. Was out walking today and a guy with a GR & staffy was way in front of us. His GR saw my dogs and sat down and refused to move! I stopped walking but he still didn't walk on. Poppy HATES GR. He was taking up a fair bit of the road too, so I had to squeeze past. Luckily the GR stayed sitting and the guy and I had a laugh as I walked past so my dogs were ok with it all.

[BC Crazy]

I have always been of the opinion if Stella's anxiety levels ever made it impossible for her to enjoy life. If her 'bad' days outweighed her 'good'. Then I would give her her wings, without hesitation. I'd have to say if she just got too much for me, as extremely hard as it would be, I'd have to do the same. When she was younger, on a bad day, I have certainly entertained the thought. She is A LOT of dog. I have nothing left in my tank at the end of some days with her, nothing... & if it really started to effect my health, I'd be left no other option.

Well done Hank Odie kicking a few goals there with Odie by the sound, Well done to you both

[BC Crazy]

We don't do shops either JulesP. Not worth it risk.

[BC Crazy]

A HUGE YES !!!!!!!!! to that Snook

If everybody had to care for a reactive dog for a month, I reckon more than half of them they would be beside themselves & totally overcome in 5 mins flat. What an eye opener it would be for them. Most folk just have no idea what a massive task it is nor do they understand how difficult they can sometimes make it with their dogs for the likes of us.

Hmmm, regarding Amy Snook that part of all of this must be extremely painful & difficult to move past & totally understandably so but at least you know what Justice CAN be & WILL be again, just given time, patience & opportunity :)

Edited August 2, 2014 by BC Crazy

[The Spencinator]

Speaking of ignorant, frustrating and oblivious people, Spencer and I had an interesting experience at agility today. We were running a 'mock trial' with the 7 or so dogs in our class (which he is fine with because he knows them all well and none of them are 'bouncy') and we ended up going last. That meant the next class had started to arrive. In that class is a very joyful lab who wants to do nothing other than jump on dogs faces/lick/bark/mount them. This lady and her dog were standing about 3 metres from the start line (with the lab nearly choking itself to death trying to get to Spencer) so when it was our turn I politely asked her to give us a bit more space because I was worried Spencer might turn around and have a go at her dog. Instead of just taking a few steps backward she had a go at me and said she had a right to stand where ever she liked and that no she wasn't going to move just because I 'couldn't control my dog'. Thankfully the instructor stepped in and told her where to go! Also as an aside, we won the competition (potentially because I was so fired up from that encounter haha), yay!

Snook, Spencer would have spat the dummy in that situation too which is why we don't go into Petstock anymore either. Honestly I think even dogs who aren't usually reactive would have a really hard time coping in a situation like that. Sometimes people don't even realise their dog isn't coping because they're not outwardly aggressive, they might be cowering or showing a heap of calming signals instead. Our dogs are just really good at showing us what they don't like!!