Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[Staffyluv]

corie it happened last Thursday night and he was home last Friday.

He seems to have made a full recovery with only one tummy upset since getting him back onto raw meat/bones with a bit of kibble added in.

I did as the vet asked and gave him some chicken and rice for a couple of days and just added a bit more raw and took a bit of the chicken and rice away each day.

He sleeps on my bed.

He will sleep in his crate or on his mat if I ask him to but I like him on the bed (he has a blanket on my bed that he sleeps on.

He will stay with my son and he stayed with my sons girlfriend the other night when I had to duck out but they both say that he won't do anything while I am gone, he just lays there (which isn't a bad thing). I can ask him to stay in a room and until last week when he was sick, he would stay until I came back to get him - now he stays a few seconds and then comes looking for me.

He doesn't over react when I get home, whining or anything but he is by my side the whole time I am here.

I work from home as well and he is in the office with me when clients are not there.

I have quite a few trades people as clients and they bring their dogs and he gets to have a play sometimes. He seems happy enough in himself, he is just very clingy.

Maybe the whole being sick thing and being away from me was a bit much and he will settle - it has only been a week.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'd be inclined to give it some more time Staffyluv. Sensitive little creatures they are, Staffords. :) It may be age related and was going to happen anyway but it's too hard to separate that for now in order to work it out.

I'd be surprised if any Stafford was happy to be in a pen in a vet hospital situation...they are generally just more anxious about being away from home and confined than other breeds.

I think it's good that the treating Vet decided to sedate if it was with something nice like stronger pain relief. We know that anxiety delays healing and damages the immune system so I would rather the dog be feeling relaxed and a bit 'out of it' than worrying it's head off. :)

[Staffyluv]

Thanks SnT.

Zig is a much more sensitive soul than Ollie was. Ol used to just go with the flow but he also had lots of time at the vets (even though he had the run of the back room or the yard to keep him happy).

Zig doesn't seem to cope with change well. I will give him some more time and hopefully he will just come back to the way he was before.

[corie]

How's Zig been doing Staffyluv?

We've still got a few more days before our session with the behaviourist, but all I need to do is to wave a bit of cheese in front of my boy's face and his focus gets diverted. A bit of food distraction seems to be all we need at the moment to tide us over. Thank god for his food drive!

We also had a 90% successful meeting with another ACD x at an oval the other day. The other dog was quite timid, and their first meeting was through a fence before the other owner led him back around, where they both had a vigorous sniff on lead. Butch was only intense during the sniffing at the fence, but when we met on the oval I got him to lay down with his back to the other dog while we talked with the owner. He wasn't really interested in playing with the other dog. Just before we left though I saw the other dog's butt sniffing turned into a bit of a sniff and then nibble at the base of his tail - which got mine barking at him. My bad for not stopping that as soon as I saw it, but it really just looked like the other dog being playful.

Edited June 17, 2013 by corie

[Staffyluv]

Zig had another 'episode' the following Thursday - that is 4 in total now. With the last 2 being a week apart. The vet really thinks it is small seizures, so has given me valium for the next time it happens. He also wants me to video the episode so he can actually see what is going on.

I am keeping a diary to see if there is any correlation between food or places or anything with the seizures (if that is what it is)..

So far, so good - nothing has happened again yet. I hope it doesn't.

We are having pretty good progress through intermediate obedience with the only real issue now being his distraction levels.

I have a feeling I am always going to have problems with it.

He can sit and stay for about 30 seconds in a distracting environment but last Sunday at training, he broke his stay every time in about 10-15 seconds with other dogs playing in an off leash area about 20 metres away.

At home, I can put him on my bed, say stay and come back in a minute and he is still there.

At the park, very early with little distraction, he can stay in sit or drop for a minute before he is looking around and I need to call him and get him to refocus again.

Apart from that, we are going great guns..

[hankdog]

It's interesting what counts as a distracting environment, I have a very long, about 100m driveway. There's an exact point at which all brain is lost. One meter this way and all tricks are perfect, stays are fine even with the neighbours dog barking at him, step that way one meter and he can only just sit and only his most ingrained tricks survive in a very half hearted way. I often drive him to a nearby office park and we have never seen a dog there. I can even work him off lead there, he's even better than in the garden.

I've been having a lot if success with peanut butter. I read about it somewhere, the smell helps distract them and apparently the licking action makes them relax their jaws. I started using it with Vicki and then in the garden when he sees the neighbours dogs. It's now got to the point where he sits on the verandah desperately waiting for the neighbours poodles to appear and then races to me to tell me he's earned a lick. I've started taking it walking, he gets treats if he only hears a dog, peanut butter is only for seeing a dog. I got caught in a dog sandwich the other day and was able to lead him past a dog with his nose firmly wedged in the jar.

I did order some of the Lickety sticks but they don't have the same appeal for him. I have an unopened chicken and beef flavored tube if anyone wants to give them a go pm me your address and I'll post them off.

[corvus]

Squeeze tube, hankdog: http://www.kellysbasecamp.com.au/p/4817115/coghlans-squeeze-tubes.html Fill with PB (or cheese spread) and you can gently release little bits at a time into his mouth when you're out walking with him.

[Wobbly]

It's interesting what counts as a distracting environment, I have a very long, about 100m driveway. There's an exact point at which all brain is lost. One meter this way and all tricks are perfect, stays are fine even with the neighbours dog barking at him, step that way one meter and he can only just sit and only his most ingrained tricks survive in a very half hearted way. I often drive him to a nearby office park and we have never seen a dog there. I can even work him off lead there, he's even better than in the garden.

I've been having a lot if success with peanut butter. I read about it somewhere, the smell helps distract them and apparently the licking action makes them relax their jaws. I started using it with Vicki and then in the garden when he sees the neighbours dogs. It's now got to the point where he sits on the verandah desperately waiting for the neighbours poodles to appear and then races to me to tell me he's earned a lick. I've started taking it walking, he gets treats if he only hears a dog, peanut butter is only for seeing a dog. I got caught in a dog sandwich the other day and was able to lead him past a dog with his nose firmly wedged in the jar.

I did order some of the Lickety sticks but they don't have the same appeal for him. I have an unopened chicken and beef flavored tube if anyone wants to give them a go pm me your address and I'll post them off.

ooh as it happens I am working on that exact issue (sort of). My new training spot is the carport, and up the drive, and just outside the house. All on long leash. So now in those areas, she's tends to auto focus on me, awaiting cues that net rewards. She still loses focus lots, because hey I have conditioned lack of focus over years, but is coming back to eye contact quicker and quicker now.

Jake thinking dogs means peanut butter is awesome!!!!!! Yay!!!! Awesome work. :D

I haven't broached cats at all to be honest lately, I have been doing other training, but I am pretty sure it will have a positive effect on cat reactivity, since I am learning so much about her, her body languages and responses - studying her with an intensity I never have before I guess. Which is helping me understand her, relative levels of distraction, keeping arousal regulated etc so will hopefull flow on to my responses to her with cats. Hopefully.

[hankdog]

Thanks Corvus, those look like they'll save me from coming home covered in peanut butter.

Wobbly I actually think all the other training you can do, tricks or agility or whatever is very helpful. I really feel I have a better connection with Jake from doing all the non dog training and that they learn to listen and trust you.

[raineth]

Hi guys :)

I'd love to join you all in this thread. I have checked in on this thread from time to time since it started and have always found it interesting.

But now I probably need to use it for myself and my dog Delta. So I'll introduce her:

Delta is a four year old Great Dane. She is from rescue and we got her as an uncut diamond when she was 15 months.

Working on impulse control has been an ongoing for us. She is drivey and has serious amounts of energy. Sometimes I read on here about people with their gun dog breeds or herding breeds and I think OMG Delta has more energy than that

Anyway our problems with other dogs began when she was attacked on three separate occasions over a fairly short period of time by loose dogs (well actually one of them was tied to a letter box and broke its rope to get at her). Our suburb has a big problem with offlead dogs at the moment which is really compounding our problem.

She doesn't bark or growl but she gets very stressed at the sight of another dog and will cry loudly. She is even like this now with dogs that bark at her from their backyard.

Mostly when she sees another dog she will sit and stare at it and cry and shake. She is especially paranoid about turning her back on them (as two of the three attacks came from behind).

With our other dog Digby, he came to us with quite a few fears and although it required a strict regimen, it was in reality quite easy to use conditioning to change the way he felt about things e.g., instead of seeing a camera and feeling sterrified, he now sees a camera and feels happy.

I don't quite know why I can't get this happening with Delta. So far I have only succeeded in changing her behaviour but not her emotions.

my problem: in the worst attack she experienced she defended herself. She grabbed the other dog by the skin on its neck (at he side of the neck) and held it back from her. She would let it go and when it went for her again she held it back from her again. I truly believe that if she hadn't done this she would have been badly injured.

But now I am worried that she will be even more keen to use aggression, or that she may use it when she doesn't really need to (i.e. approached by a friendly offlead dog). I don't know if this is founded or not as since these things happened we have had friendly dogs approach us and she hasn't tried to have a go at them. But I get worried because of the size differential and then I'm sure my nerves rub off on her

Anyway I am looking forward to sharing our experiences with you all, and hearing and learning about every one else's as well :)

[corvus]

I don't quite know why I can't get this happening with Delta. So far I have only succeeded in changing her behaviour but not her emotions.

CC probably works best with simple stimuli. Dogs are not so simple. Grisha Stewart came up with BAT because she could only get so far with her dog's problems with other dogs using counter-conditioning alone. And she had a disagreement with the CAT people. ;) Possibly you have an arousal problem? It is an uphill battle changing emotional responses when arousal is high.

my problem: in the worst attack she experienced she defended herself. She grabbed the other dog by the skin on its neck (at he side of the neck) and held it back from her. She would let it go and when it went for her again she held it back from her again. I truly believe that if she hadn't done this she would have been badly injured.

But now I am worried that she will be even more keen to use aggression, or that she may use it when she doesn't really need to (i.e. approached by a friendly offlead dog). I don't know if this is founded or not as since these things happened we have had friendly dogs approach us and she hasn't tried to have a go at them. But I get worried because of the size differential and then I'm sure my nerves rub off on her

You can teach her to wait before acting using things like LAT from Control Unleashed. And BAT works well if you can do setups. It's good that you haven't seen any evidence that she's going to be over-eager to use aggression yet. In her mind she may not have been avoiding trouble so much as managing the situation, if that makes sense. She may therefore not use that strategy until she is faced with the same context. Keep the intensity low by working on her around relatively slow and calm dogs or using bigger distances. As long as the intensity is low you'll see the behavioural responses you want.

[Wobbly]

Raineth did you ever read Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt? I was lucky enough to get a copy cheaply from a member here (Danny's Darling, yay thank you DD) and it has really had a huge positive effect, for both me and my dog. It really is an amazing book, and has nice simple procedures to follow, while it's aimed specifically at nervy, anxious, scared dogs, it is applicable to dogs with any kind of overarousal issues.

I really would recommend it as a first port of call for your own understanding, it's clear and authoritative and endlessly helpful.

[corie]

My dog has been through a very similar situation raineth, although for some reason despite being a mix of two working breeds I can say he is still fairy laid back 70% of the time. We've had some progress with him already, he used to be quite fear aggressive and try to check out the other dog before it could do anything to him first, but now he will sit easily when I think pulling on the lead will hurt his neck (he does the crying thing when we sit, soft whining I can usually break him out of when I have food with me), otherwise we can walk past another dog with only a couple of corrections. The biggest improvement I've seen so far with him is that we walked past a ridgeback yesterday, who lunged and barked at him, but we managed to keep going with just a tug on the leash. I've noticed that after we see a dog he will suddenly have too much energy to just walk beside me, so I tend to make him wait and work for some food to burn off that energy before we keep going. Keeps everyone happy.

We are seeing a behaviourist soon, she was the one who suggested to me it might be fear aggression, and the pointer has really helped give me something to work with. Avoidance is key until my session with her. We do the whole walk in the early morning, or by busy roads around 2pm when everyone who lives in the area is at work or just about to pick up their kids. Keeping a sharp eye out for dogs and crossing to the other side before he sees the dog is always a must. I bring bits of cheese, .5cm x .5cm, and when a few tugs on the leash won't do it I stick it in front of his face and feed it to him after he puts a few steps again in the right direction. Rinse and repeat, until it's out of sight. The big difference in your situation is that in my area we have two primary schools, so the dogs must be on lead rule seems to be obeyed more rigorously, the only off lead dog I've encountered is a well trained bully who has great recall.

I'd also recommend LAT if you have a chance to try it. We haven't been working on LAT because the only dogs I personally know is an under exercised, untrained husky, a hyper maltese, and the other a friendly labrador - was the breed that according to the foster was the one to attack him, and in a vet room with an adult great dane, an adolescent lab, and an adult poodle cross, it was the lab he chose to make a fuss about and growl at!

Another good pointer I forgot where I got is that dogs understand your body language more than your voice. So body blocking, a poke to get his attention, etc. Although I realise that a medium sized dog would have different considerations than a great dane :p

Edited June 21, 2013 by corie

[raineth]

I don't quite know why I can't get this happening with Delta. So far I have only succeeded in changing her behaviour but not her emotions.

CC probably works best with simple stimuli. Dogs are not so simple. Grisha Stewart came up with BAT because she could only get so far with her dog's problems with other dogs using counter-conditioning alone. And she had a disagreement with the CAT people. ;) Possibly you have an arousal problem? It is an uphill battle changing emotional responses when arousal is high.

I think you have excellent insight Corvus. I'll go research BAT and yes I think you're right about the arousal problem. She is in general a very emotional dog. Interestingly she can be highly aroused yet still listening and taking treats. I haven't taken her for her walk yet today so when I do I'm going to look closely at her arousal levels.

I guess the other thing is that conditioning works best when you can control the environment and when there are lots of offlead dogs this is just not always possible.

Its funny because when we first got her she was very wild about cats (she has strong prey drive) and we got that under control really well although it did take a few months to get that result if the cat was running or playing. I still wouldn't trust her nose to nose with a cat (or put her in that situation). It must be that the fear that's the basis for her reaction to dogs is just a much more powerful force than prey drive which underlies her feeling towards cats.

You can teach her to wait before acting using things like LAT from Control Unleashed. And BAT works well if you can do setups. It's good that you haven't seen any evidence that she's going to be over-eager to use aggression yet. In her mind she may not have been avoiding trouble so much as managing the situation, if that makes sense. She may therefore not use that strategy until she is faced with the same context. Keep the intensity low by working on her around relatively slow and calm dogs or using bigger distances. As long as the intensity is low you'll see the behavioural responses you want.

Yes I think I need to get control unleashed.

and we'll focus very much on low arousal and low intensity.

Whilst part of me is sad that she used aggression I was pleased to see her use it in a restrained sort of way. She was certainly very controlled about it and did not use one jot of extra force than she had to get this dog to back off.

So I need to look at her body language and I need to catch her before she tenses and keep her at that level?

Edited June 21, 2013 by raineth

[raineth]

Raineth did you ever read Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt? I was lucky enough to get a copy cheaply from a member here (Danny's Darling, yay thank you DD) and it has really had a huge positive effect, for both me and my dog. It really is an amazing book, and has nice simple procedures to follow, while it's aimed specifically at nervy, anxious, scared dogs, it is applicable to dogs with any kind of overarousal issues.

I really would recommend it as a first port of call for your own understanding, it's clear and authoritative and endlessly helpful.

Thanks Wobbly, yes it sounds like a really good first port of call, I'm definitely going to get it :)

My dog has been through a very similar situation raineth, although for some reason despite being a mix of two working breeds I can say he is still fairy laid back 70% of the time. We've had some progress with him already, he used to be quite fear aggressive and try to check out the other dog before it could do anything to him first, but now he will sit easily when I think pulling on the lead will hurt his neck (he does the crying thing when we sit, soft whining I can usually break him out of when I have food with me), otherwise we can walk past another dog with only a couple of corrections. The biggest improvement I've seen so far with him is that we walked past a ridgeback yesterday, who lunged and barked at him, but we managed to keep going with just a tug on the leash. I've noticed that after we see a dog he will suddenly have too much energy to just walk beside me, so I tend to make him wait and work for some food to burn off that energy before we keep going. Keeps everyone happy.

We are seeing a behaviourist soon, she was the one who suggested to me it might be fear aggression, and the pointer has really helped give me something to work with. Avoidance is key until my session with her. We do the whole walk in the early morning, or by busy roads around 2pm when everyone who lives in the area is at work or just about to pick up their kids. Keeping a sharp eye out for dogs and crossing to the other side before he sees the dog is always a must. I bring bits of cheese, .5cm x .5cm, and when a few tugs on the leash won't do it I stick it in front of his face and feed it to him after he puts a few steps again in the right direction. Rinse and repeat, until it's out of sight. The big difference in your situation is that in my area we have two primary schools, so the dogs must be on lead rule seems to be obeyed more rigorously, the only off lead dog I've encountered is a well trained bully who has great recall.

I'd also recommend LAT if you have a chance to try it. We haven't been working on LAT because the only dogs I personally know is an under exercised, untrained husky, a hyper maltese, and the other a friendly labrador - was the breed that according to the foster was the one to attack him, and in a vet room with an adult great dane, an adolescent lab, and an adult poodle cross, it was the lab he chose to make a fuss about and growl at!

Another good pointer I forgot where I got is that dogs understand your body language more than your voice. So body blocking, a poke to get his attention, etc. Although I realise that a medium sized dog would have different considerations than a great dane :p

Well that's a fantastic bit of success you've had with the ridgeback incident Corie You must be feeling very proud of him :)

I am in a really similar situation. We had some good friends here with dogs that our dogs used to hang out with but they moved away, and now I don't now anyone with dogs who we could use for set-up situations. Looks like I'll have to consider going back to dog club.

That's a good point about the body language and is so true. I know when I walk with her I have a bit of a checklist in my head of making sure I'm walking confidently but relaxed and she responds well to this. But I'll look into ways to use it in those specific situations.

When she sees another dog and sits it can honestly be like trying to move a lump of concrete if I rely on the leash alone. I call her to me in a loud but happy sort of voice and she'll quickly jump towards me, but immediately spin back around and sit with her eye on the dog. She is so worried about them coming up behind her. Part of me is laughing and going this looks so ridiculous as we move away in this bizarre hop and sit manner.

[Weasels]

I read this article yesterday and found it well-written and interesting, hopefully some others here might too :)

5-harsh-realities-of-treating-dog-aggression

[corvus]

I think you have excellent insight Corvus. I'll go research BAT and yes I think you're right about the arousal problem. She is in general a very emotional dog. Interestingly she can be highly aroused yet still listening and taking treats. I haven't taken her for her walk yet today so when I do I'm going to look closely at her arousal levels.

Ha! Sounds like Erik. It makes things easier in some ways and harder in others. Erik is incredibly responsive at high arousal, so it is pretty easy to get his attention at least. But he's also quite volatile at high arousal. I found it a challenge to begin with to recognise when he was compromised because he was still super responsive. There's no clear moment when you go "Ah, lost him. I'll remember that!" He just gets steadily more volatile and unpredictable. It got way easier when he got good at LAT, because he would tell me clearly that he was having trouble by starting to offer it. I have had him run 10m back to me to start a game of LAT and I was just like "Really? You're bothered by that? I had no idea, buddy."

Its funny because when we first got her she was very wild about cats (she has strong prey drive) and we got that under control really well although it did take a few months to get that result if the cat was running or playing. I still wouldn't trust her nose to nose with a cat (or put her in that situation). It must be that the fear that's the basis for her reaction to dogs is just a much more powerful force than prey drive which underlies her feeling towards cats.

Yeah, I guess cats are unambiguous for her. You see them, you chase them. Dogs, who knows. Maybe she might have to defend herself, maybe she'll be fine. It's probably quite nerve wracking for her to see them coming and not really know what's going to happen and how to stop bad things happening to her. This is why things like LAT are quite effective. They teach the dog that there's a simple rule that will solve this problem. They just keep looking and looking back for their treat and they won't have to interact with the dog at all. Part of LAT is a "look but don't touch" understanding. It's like a promise to them that they won't have to engage directly with whatever they are looking at, so they will be safe when they play this game. I would let her sit and watch dogs coming if all she does is watch. If you can get her off the path that would be good. If she's allowed to watch she will hopefully learn in time she doesn't have to watch so closely and then you can get her glancing and moving at the same time.

So I need to look at her body language and I need to catch her before she tenses and keep her at that level?

Yes! Exactly. Leslie McDevitt says it's the dog's job to notice things that bother them and tell you by just looking quietly. Not staring, not lunging, not barking. There is a moment they do this before they decide they should be more proactive. You mark and reward that and you'll be right and get LAT happening nice and quick. You don't need setups to teach it. I did it on the run. If you have trouble with that you can teach it with any objects at all and generalise later.

[raineth]

Yes exactly I think its not just the fear, but the fact is that she likes other dogs so she is really conflicted thinking, 'this could be nice, or this could be scary - I'll watch super closely so I know which one its going to be'.

I was watching the BAT video on the BAT website and actually I'm going to have to do quite some thinking about whether walking away from the dog will be rewarding to her not as she has that thing about not taking her eye off the dog. Because of this I might start with LAT.

Yes whenever possible I walk her on the other side of the road to the other dog. There is a staffy that she's never met, but she's familiar with and he is the only dog we walk relatively close to, and she sits and longingly watches him go by, she would like to say hello to him.

She is a lot like Eric I often read what you say about Eric and think that Delta is like him. She even does the nose pokes when she gets in a mood. She likes to knock things off things with her nose.

[hankdog]

Hey raineth, welcome to the thread. It's a shame your dogs been attacked, the scourge of off leash dogs. It's not all bad, by the time you've learned LAT and done some BAT you will have a whole new understanding of the world of dogs. As annoying as a reactive dog is you certainly learn so much.

[corvus]

FYI, Raineth, Erik is on Prozac at the moment and it has certainly helped him. The biggest thing it has done is enable him to sleep more. Not lethargy, but good, restful sleep for several hours a day where he used to be awake and alert most of the time. He was the dog that needed to get out and be exercised a couple of hours a day and now it's not so crucial. I can skip a walk and don't have to pay for it later with endless restlessness and poking. I don't want to discuss it too much here because some people don't like me and it's been hard enough to go this route without having people lean on my insecurities about it. But if you (or anyone else) ever want to know the specifics I'm happy to discuss privately.