Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[SammieS]

Hankdog - Jake is very handsome... but I'm biased to the Bulldogs!

Good news Panzer! Sometimes it takes a change of tact to see a difference. When we went to a different puppy school with Angus we learnt about timeouts and used that to change behaviours of both Asti and Angus... who knew timeouts for children works the same for dogs (although children don't go into a crate :laugh: )

[megan_]

Today is Lucy's fourth Gotcha Day:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/247097-happy-fourth-gotcha-day-lucy/

[megan_]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Joostice's head tremors knocked him about a bit and impacted his behaviour.

[hankdog]

Oh dear Snook, a few more grey hairs for you. Hooefully the tremors are a once off. I think Justice is a huge inspiration. almost because he does show you that occasionally he is still bothered by other dogs but most of the time he is able to manage himself. You're a top dog Justice!!

[grizabella]

I've had a lot of improvement with Bella recently. She still reacts to other dogs on walks but has gotten a lot better at bringing her attention back to me when I tell her to 'leave it', and is usually calm after that. I've found that once she's over the initial barking and growling, she's usually either curious about approaching the other dog, or just downright excited, play bowing. She is absolutely fine if she's given the opportunity to meet the dog nicely, but this doesn't happen very often as I don't want her poor social skills to bother other dogs.

[teekay]

Hi all, I haven't had time to read this whole thread but i will :D

Feeling a little overwhelmed with my Aussie Shepherd Luka atm. Initially he was nervous of strangers and had a lunging. barking episode when a small girl approached him, a few months back, that promped me to get a trainer/behviourst in. He also started going nutso if we got too close to another dog, especially if he is on lead and the other dog isn't. If they run, all hell breaks loose. He sounds like an absolute monster, he isn't aggressive but he sure does sound it. It's very upsetting to hear and see my little man like that. He is such a gentle soul most of the time.

He has always had a tendency to growl at my other two when they are doing zoomies but it has never been a problem with them. Anyway we had our session with the trainer came a few weeks ago and TBH I wasn't all that impressed, she seemed to focus on 'leadership' more than anything else. Wanted us to do NILF, which we have, but have not seen any improvement in any of his behaviours so I had read a bit about counter conditioning and watched loads of videos. Love the kikopup ones on You tube so we have been working with that the last couple of weeks. I thought things were going well, we even encountered 2 off leash dogs at the park this morning and Luka managed to stay under his threashold. Admittedly they were pretty docile dogs so that helped.

Now, I know it's early days but we have just got back from this evening's walk and had another encounter with an off leash dog but this one was a skittish Jack Russel and Luka just lost it, probably the worst I had ever seen him It is just so upsetting. You think you are making headway and then all it takes is some idiot and I feel like we are back to square one. We probably aren't but I am just so upset. Temperament was so important to me when I chose my dog. I didn't rush in to the first puppy I found, I researched some breeders and found one I was comfortable with and Luka was such a laid back puppy. I thought I had hit the jackpot with him. Then he hit about 10 months old and suddenly changed.

So, has anyone got any reassuring words that it will work out in the end. :) I honetsly have no idea of time scale for these things. I am supposed to be going back to see the trainer soon but don't really want to. She didn't even mention counter conditioning.

Anyway that's me and my Luka, I hope to read the whole thread tomorrow and probably some of my questions will already be answered in there, so apologies but I just needed to vent. I feel a bit calmer now. :)

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Hi all, I haven't had time to read this whole thread but i will :D

Feeling a little overwhelmed with my Aussie Shepherd Luka atm. Initially he was nervous of strangers and had a lunging. barking episode when a small girl approached him, a few months back, that promped me to get a trainer/behviourst in. He also started going nutso if we got too close to another dog, especially if he is on lead and the other dog isn't. If they run, all hell breaks loose. He sounds like an absolute monster, he isn't aggressive but he sure does sound it. It's very upsetting to hear and see my little man like that. He is such a gentle soul most of the time.

He has always had a tendency to growl at my other two when they are doing zoomies but it has never been a problem with them. Anyway we had our session with the trainer came a few weeks ago and TBH I wasn't all that impressed, she seemed to focus on 'leadership' more than anything else. Wanted us to do NILF, which we have, but have not seen any improvement in any of his behaviours so I had read a bit about counter conditioning and watched loads of videos. Love the kikopup ones on You tube so we have been working with that the last couple of weeks. I thought things were going well, we even encountered 2 off leash dogs at the park this morning and Luka managed to stay under his threashold. Admittedly they were pretty docile dogs so that helped.

Now, I know it's early days but we have just got back from this evening's walk and had another encounter with an off leash dog but this one was a skittish Jack Russel and Luka just lost it, probably the worst I had ever seen him It is just so upsetting. You think you are making headway and then all it takes is some idiot and I feel like we are back to square one. We probably aren't but I am just so upset. Temperament was so important to me when I chose my dog. I didn't rush in to the first puppy I found, I researched some breeders and found one I was comfortable with and Luka was such a laid back puppy. I thought I had hit the jackpot with him. Then he hit about 10 months old and suddenly changed.

So, has anyone got any reassuring words that it will work out in the end. :) I honetsly have no idea of time scale for these things. I am supposed to be going back to see the trainer soon but don't really want to. She didn't even mention counter conditioning.

Anyway that's me and my Luka, I hope to read the whole thread tomorrow and probably some of my questions will already be answered in there, so apologies but I just needed to vent. I feel a bit calmer now. :)

You've pretty much described what I went through with Kenz right here!! I also did lots of research before getting her, but temperament is partly genetic partly environment - I realised a lot later on that the stress levels in our house were super high during her critical times. Couldn't be helped just due to what was going on with me and with old Emma, it just was what it was - but it contributed to Kenz's reactivity and general nervousness I am certain.

But on to the next bit, there is definitely hope!!!! I think it is safe to say that reactive dogs are a work in progress for their whole lives, but if you are prepared to put in the time and training you will get there with Luka. My brilliant example from just a few hours ago...

Background, at about 6 months old or so Kenz was "attacked" (no blood, but lifted shaken and mentally hurt) by a GSD. Since then we have had problems with GSD's, she just hates them regardless of how they seem. Off lead ok, because she can get away from them, on lead generally not great. So for the last couple of years I've been working on Kenz's reactivity in general but have been conscious of trying to desensitise her to GSD's (I can't believe it's been a couple of years, but she's nearly 3.5yrs so it is!!!). Tonight at the vet we go in to see a GSD standing at the counter, it turns and stares at Kenz then starts barking at her, she has a very brief "moment" (barking), I tell her to cut it out, she sits looks at the GSD looks at me then goes and stands on the scales! We then had to walk past the GSD to go in to the consult room, Kenz just walks past cool as a cucumber and looks at me as if to say "hey, see that GSD, it's nothing to me"!!! Can't tell you how impressed I was with her. The vet was also super impressed, she knows about Kenz's "journey" and apparently that particular GSD is not a particularly polite dog at any point in time.

So yes there is hope!! You do need to figure out a bit what works for you though. I agree that desensitisation is important - if your dog is at the point where they can cope with that and you don't push it too hard. No doubt if yuo've read through the thread you'll have read heaps about LAT - that worked absolute wonders for us. It's also now helping me progress her training in a different direction. Being allowed to look at her environment has meant that it is actually now easier to teach her to be comfortable and focus more on me.

Good luck! You have a nice supportive environment to deal with these things in here!

[corvus]

LAT, teekay. :D It's teh awesome.

Erik sounds a lot worse than he is as well. Today we were at the dog park and a puppy zoomed between him and me while we were doing some trick training. Erik was only about 40cm away from me, so the gap was too small and pup clipped him, possibly on the nose as he was in a down. He went awol and exploded at said pup, chased it off, lots of noise, came back when called, then turned and chased pup again as it zoomed past, returned when called again, then a third time made some noise and a rush before I was finally able to get a down out of him and move him away. Kivi went into formal obedience mode and had been waiting politely in a sit in heel for me to move. He's a funny thing. He seems to think dog being mean = formal obedience will make it all better. I taught him this accidentally, but I can't say I'm sorry. It's extremely useful to have a dog who responds to dog aggression by happily trotting into heel position and waiting for you to escort him away. It's just a tiny bit nerve wracking if you're not sure he'll be safe there. The puppy had already provoked three other dogs to snap at her, but it was Erik that everyone got concerned about because he was the most conspicuous about it. Poor E. He really doesn't have much tolerance for puppies. He's generally quite good with other dogs, though.

[hankdog]

Hey Corvus anytime you want to "accidentally" teach that to Jake I'll post him to you. Kivi is awesome. There's definitely different levels of behaviorist, I'd try find one who has a dog they work with so you can run set ups. As Salukibel said above it's hard to sort out your dogs behavior if you're practicing on just any dog you come upon and can't predict the other dogs reaction. Vicki has a bunch of different dogs and Jake can be feral and they don't give him anything back so we can just focus on what he's doing. It's also helpful if you watch your trainer handling your dog, the timing and body language can be subtle and Jake learns stuff so quickly off Vicki. LAT is really helpful, I fumbled around trying to get it right forever, Vicki got him into it in one session.

[teekay]

Thanks guys, it's so nice to talk to people who understand :)

I have control unleashed Snook. Great book, I'm about half way though and I just wish Leslie McDevitt lived in Australia. :D

I live on the Sunshine Coast so if anyone has any recommendations that would be awesome. I really can't afford it at the moment having wasted money on the other Behaviourist and I have just enrolled in the Susan Garrett Recallers 4.0 online course. But if we don't see any improvement after completing that, I may have saved up enough to see someone else.

I have also decided to leave our present obedience school, at least for now. Luka isn't too reactive there, I think because the other dogs are under control, but it is still stressful for him and me. It is a very large school. I have had Pawtential dog school recommended to me, which is much smaller and focusses on positive reinforcements, so I think I may aim to go there at some stage. For now I will continue with the counter conditioning (which is basically LAT, not sure if there is a difference) I haven't put a cue on the behaviour but if he looks at another dog or person I say 'yes', he looks back at me and I and treat, lots.

Anyway thanks for letting me share and vent :D

[Panzer Attack]

Gooo Kenzie!

Teekay, I'm a bit late to the party, but let me just say, if I'd blindly followed the first behaviourist I'd seen about Scooter, he'd be a year dead He's still kicking, and with a lot of soul searching and disappointment, we are finally starting to see the light. Please listen to yourself, and your dog, first. Things will get better, promise :)

Scootie is almost at the point where he can be walked again. Poop! He's definitely more relaxed than before, but we've got a loooong way to go, and I'm so hesitant to walk him. Guess I'm going to have to start getting up at 5am...

[Staffyluv]

Hi all, I just wanted to update on Ziggy.

We are still at obedience training and today in our class, he heeled on a very loose lead, he stayed in sit and ignored the boxer next to him (trying to get his attention and he was only about half a metre away).. Using the leave it and stay commands, he just sat there and looked at me - instead of trying to play with the boxer..

Taking him to obedience is the best thing I have done for us..

He does his sits, drops etc when asked but tends to get a bit bored while we wait for instruction or when the trainer is helping someone else. We tend to do tricks like catching his ball and some LAT work while we wait to make the time pass so he doesn't get bored.

I am so proud of my boy and the amazing progress he has made in a group environment..

[hankdog]

Excellent progress Staffyluv, you've certainly turned around very quickly. I always thought I'd get Jake to obedience after 3 months then pushed it out to 6 months, chances are he's just never going to be able to be that close to other dogs. He is a clicker training genius, at the moment I'm working on getting him moving between two hoops, it'll be a good way to get him excercise if I put one each end if the garden.

[Staffyluv]

Excellent progress Staffyluv, you've certainly turned around very quickly. I always thought I'd get Jake to obedience after 3 months then pushed it out to 6 months, chances are he's just never going to be able to be that close to other dogs. He is a clicker training genius, at the moment I'm working on getting him moving between two hoops, it'll be a good way to get him excercise if I put one each end if the garden.

Zig is reactive but overly friendly and quite submissive (if another dog is dominant, he is happy to be the submissive pack member)..

Because of this, I always thought it was more me than him - I still do. It is the way I have handled him and with the guidance of the trainers at obedience (giving me the methods to be more dominant of him), it has made a huge difference to the way he is and they way I handle it.

I was told by a few people not to take him to obedience as it might be to much for him (with his low level of distraction) - lucky for us, it has actually been just what he needed to learn to deal with distraction.

We still have a long way to go but these small wins make it all worth while, because I can see the dog he is going to be (and I know I can be the handler he needs me to be).. Today is the first time he has ever walked on a loose lead at heel with that much distraction - he is nearly always head and shoulders in front of me when we walk or at the end of the lead.

He is a puller (but doesn't pull like he used to because I am always reminding him not to and calling him back to me when he gets in front)..

Today was also the first time another dog tried to engage him and he didn't respond - he stayed sitting beside me when asked..

Today was such a blast, I am still over the moon about it - even the instructor was clapping us..

[teekay]

Excellent progress Staffyluv, you've certainly turned around very quickly. I always thought I'd get Jake to obedience after 3 months then pushed it out to 6 months, chances are he's just never going to be able to be that close to other dogs. He is a clicker training genius, at the moment I'm working on getting him moving between two hoops, it'll be a good way to get him excercise if I put one each end if the garden.

Zig is reactive but overly friendly and quite submissive (if another dog is dominant, he is happy to be the submissive pack member)..

Because of this, I always thought it was more me than him - I still do. It is the way I have handled him and with the guidance of the trainers at obedience (giving me the methods to be more dominant of him), it has made a huge difference to the way he is and they way I handle it.

I was told by a few people not to take him to obedience as it might be to much for him (with his low level of distraction) - lucky for us, it has actually been just what he needed to learn to deal with distraction.

We still have a long way to go but these small wins make it all worth while, because I can see the dog he is going to be (and I know I can be the handler he needs me to be).. Today is the first time he has ever walked on a loose lead at heel with that much distraction - he is nearly always head and shoulders in front of me when we walk or at the end of the lead.

He is a puller (but doesn't pull like he used to because I am always reminding him not to and calling him back to me when he gets in front)..

Today was also the first time another dog tried to engage him and he didn't respond - he stayed sitting beside me when asked..

Today was such a blast, I am still over the moon about it - even the instructor was clapping us..

This sounds very much like Luka. He knows his place in my pack at home. Probably not bottom, that would be my complete sook, Jenna, but he knows not to stand up to Mya. One look from her and he stops dead. :laugh: All his reactive behaviour is because he wants to get to the dog to have a sniff, say hello.

Well done Ziggy and well done Staffyluv, it really is an awesome feeling when you actually see some progress.

[corvus]

I was told by a few people not to take him to obedience as it might be to much for him (with his low level of distraction) - lucky for us, it has actually been just what he needed to learn to deal with distraction.

It certainly sounded to me like it would be too much for him! And I stand by that. Hopefully it was more than luck that got you both through. Because if it had proved too much for him I believe it could have made it worse, and some of us said as much. I for one was worried for you both when you went through with it anyway. I'm very glad that my worries were unfounded and it's turned out to be such a good thing for him. But I still hope it was more than luck! I take chances sometimes with my animals and it rarely turns out well.

All that aside, I doubt it has much to do with dominance and submission. Erik is very needy about structure and direction. He looks to me and he finds ways to get me to offer him rules and guidance. At the same time, he is a little turd, very opportunistic and exploitative, and prone to controlling behaviour that has got out of hand on occasion when he was a youngster. I expect most people would consider him a dominant dog in that he is pushy, controlling and if you give an inch he will take a mile. He was on very strict NILIF as a pup, because without it he would come up with bucket loads of behaviours I didn't like while trying to get what he wanted. It was take control of all his reinforcers or get trampled by him, basically. Nonetheless, I have generally been pretty relaxed with him. If he acts up I rarely act until I know why he is acting up. I give him the benefit of the doubt because it's easier to change behaviour based on reinforcement than change behaviour based on fear or anxiety. I don't even give him all the guidance he wants from me because he becomes so dependent it hampers him learning to handle things on his own, which is ultimately what I'm trying to teach him to do. All things in moderation. I think that dogs generally respond well to lots of guidance and structure, which is why things like LAT are so useful and effective. But it's in their best interests to learn to handle things on their owns as well. And it's not necessarily a dominance issue. Sometimes dogs just don't know what they should do and having us tell them takes a lot of pressure off them and probably feels pretty good.

Edited March 10, 2013 by corvus

[Staffyluv]

I was told by a few people not to take him to obedience as it might be to much for him (with his low level of distraction) - lucky for us, it has actually been just what he needed to learn to deal with distraction.

It certainly sounded to me like it would be too much for him! And I stand by that. Hopefully it was more than luck that got you both through. Because if it had proved too much for him I believe it could have made it worse, and some of us said as much. I for one was worried for you both when you went through with it anyway. I'm very glad that my worries were unfounded and it's turned out to be such a good thing for him. But I still hope it was more than luck! I take chances sometimes with my animals and it rarely turns out well.

All that aside, I doubt it has much to do with dominance and submission. Erik is very needy about structure and direction. He looks to me and he finds ways to get me to offer him rules and guidance. At the same time, he is a little turd, very opportunistic and exploitative, and prone to controlling behaviour that has got out of hand on occasion when he was a youngster. I expect most people would consider him a dominant dog in that he is pushy, controlling and if you give an inch he will take a mile. He was on very strict NILIF as a pup, because without it he would come up with bucket loads of behaviours I didn't like while trying to get what he wanted. It was take control of all his reinforcers or get trampled by him, basically. Nonetheless, I have generally been pretty relaxed with him. If he acts up I rarely act until I know why he is acting up. I give him the benefit of the doubt because it's easier to change behaviour based on reinforcement than change behaviour based on fear or anxiety. I don't even give him all the guidance he wants from me because he becomes so dependent it hampers him learning to handle things on his own, which is ultimately what I'm trying to teach him to do. All things in moderation. I think that dogs generally respond well to lots of guidance and structure, which is why things like LAT are so useful and effective. But it's in their best interests to learn to handle things on their owns as well. And it's not necessarily a dominance issue. Sometimes dogs just don't know what they should do and having us tell them takes a lot of pressure off them and probably feels pretty good.

I dare say it is more than luck :)

I spend a lot of time with Zig and his training and I am constantly reinforcing that training in every day activities (like him waiting to be asked through the door, sitting and allowing other dogs to come to him - instead of him barging towards him)..

As for the dominance/submissive thing - I am only going on what the behaviourist suggested to me.

Zig will roll over, if challenged or run behind me (what ever is closest). He has never shown any aggression over anything.

He is happy for people and other dogs to take his toys and food.

However he is forward and can be 'pushy' with other dogs (the reason we went to the behaviourist classes twice and we are now in obedience).

I have to admit I wasn't sure if the obedience classes would work for us but I had to try and I am glad I did. If they hadn't been working after a couple of weeks, I would have pulled him out.

Don't get me wrong, we still have a way to go with his training but today was such a breakthrough I wanted to share it.

He may not do it again for a while but these little victories let me see (and hopefully others) that there is light at the end of the tunnel with dogs that are reactive (be it over dominance, aggression or what ever makes them reactive)..

Zig and I have come such a long way - we take 2 steps forward and some weeks we take 2 steps back. But then we have a breakthrough and it gives me the encouragement to continue.

One thing that I have discovered since going to obedience is that I was not being firm enough with him. I am correcting this.

I don't think any of the problems I have with him are his fault - I got him less than a month after losing my husband and my 14 year old stafford. I probably wasn't in the right mind to do the best by him to begin with.. Again, I realise this and I am working on it.

[hankdog]

If anyone asks I'm always telling them how Jake just had wonderful breakthrough and the other day my OH said "if he's always doing these great things why is he still going off at other dogs".

So yes one step forward. one back and two sideways, and you just have to keep celebrating the little victories. Like you I also think I'm probably not the right handler for Jake but he didnt have a choice so that's it, he's stuck with me.

I didn't realise that you had suffered a double loss such a short time ago, that must have been very hard. Maybe Zig was sent to be your distraction. I'm not religious but sometimes I beleive the universe just gives you stuff to deal with. One day I was explaining Jake to a stranger and I told her he was a rescue dog. She looked puzzled and asked me "What does he rescue?"

"Well he rescued me from being a sad, lonely old woman!"

[Staffyluv]

I agree hankdog, I think things happen for a reason.

Dan passed away on 2nd October 2011 (after a big weekend out with mates) and Ollie dog gave up his 6year fight against mast cell cancer on the 25th October 2011.

I posted about him on DOL in rainbow bridge and went to have a look at the rescue thread. There was a little kelpie cross who had run out of time in our local pound and after talking to my son (I said I need to DO something, it is too quiet in the house), we agreed to foster Gus.

While we were there picking him up on the 27th October, my son asked if they had any staffies there.

The ranger said a few, so we just had a look. As we were leaving he said we have one more but you can't get near him, he is so scared.

We went to the cage, I told Cory to open it but don't go in, just crouch down outside the door and see if he comes out,

Zig came out on his belly after about 10 minutes. He crawled under Corys legs and then crawled over to me and up onto my lap.

His time wasn't up until the following Monday, so I put my name on him and he came home.. He was about six months old then.

He will be 2 in April. He had no trainingt a all, we couldn't even get a collar and lead on him to begin with. He was afraid of everything.

He has come such a long way since then and so have I.

As much as he tests me, he has been such good medicine for this home..

I am very grateful for this thread. I have tried a lot of the suggestions and tools that the more experienced handlers and trainers have suggested not just for Zig but for other dogs with similar issues.

Some work better than others but again, I say that I am not a trainer and have little experience with dogs with issues (I guess I just lucked out with out earlier dogs but also most of our puppies were lead trained etc as they came from breeders).

I would suggest that I am probably not doing a lot of the training correctly or effectively enough.

Another reason I wanted to do obedience, the instructors train us to train our dogs.

[hankdog]

The reason I switched from Steve to Vicki was because I felt I needed more training, it's looks simple but To get the timing and everything else right is so tricky and I think when you're working with a highly anxious dog you have so little room for error. I was also lucky with all my other dogs, I've always had second hand adult dogs and some have had their quirks but none as difficult as Jake. I just know if I'd seen him being walked down the street before I would have thought "why doesn't that owner train that awful dog." Jake has certainly taught me a lot, and not just about dog training.