Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[BC Crazy]

Hi disintegratus, your Thundercleese sounds just like Stella alright. Glad you can relate. I too ring OH is we walk & she does 'good' :laugh: Or I also ring , usually with my eye's leaking if she has

had 'issues' :laugh: Ohhhh the things these pooches put us through....

Panzer, Thats so good lil Poots was great with the children. It can all be a bit over whelming, kids, noise etc etc when they aren't used to it. Well done Lil Poots You did mum proud :)

[bianca.a]

BC I am so glad that the increased dose seems to be helping poor Stella *hugs*. Honestly her and my Molly sound like they are cut from the same cloth

Molly has been on Prozac for over a month and is a lot better in general. I have had to dose her up on Xanax with the weather lately. She also seems to 'recover' a bit quicker when she goes nuts at other dogs on our walks. This morning a dog behind a fence (see through) was carrying on at her and of course she responded but within about 10 metres of walking she was ok.

[megan_]

Hugs to Bc Crazy and bianca - I hope the new meds give both you and your dogs relief.

Well done Scooter for putting up with kids. Lucy doesn't know how you do it!

I'm very lucky to have received the BAT book from my DOL SS (amongst a whole lot of other things, including a scent detection games DVD). I'm going to read it over the Christmas break. The games will be great for when it is too hot/rainy to go outside and for when I sleep in (very rarely) and I can't walk Lucy due to too many loose dogs.

Lucy is going to take a little holiday to Cosmolo's after Christmas because I'm looking after my cousin's dogs for about 4 days. Lucy loves their eldest (a 15 year old mini schnauzer) but hates their young std schnauzer with a passion - she is very "everyone is my friend, I'll go up to them and play whether they like it or not!. I'll miss her but she really loves her special holidays and is always more relaxed and confident when she comes back. She's now really at home there too.

Fergs and Lucy stayed overnight there last weekend as I babysat and when I went to pick them up, Tamara let them out the front (gate was closed). I could see her running around and playing with the other dogs, so relaxed, so happy - I almost got dust in my eyes.

Does anyone ever feel guilty at how their "spechul" dog has impacted their other dog? Fergus has a great temp but is submissive and sometimes reacts to things because Lucy does (never reacts when she's not there). As soon as he realises they're a friend he calms right down, but I feel guilty for breaking him a bit...

[BC Crazy]

bianca, Poor Molly girl It is so upsetting to watch them in that hightened, anxious state..... would probably make best pals, birders of a feather...

So that also means you must be as tired as I am most days :laugh:

Does Molly wear you out? Because I am exhausted most days after trying to make Stella's life as comfortable as it can be.

She decided it might be a great idea to wake up at 4.20am this morning Nature was calling, so that's all good but then how about we have a game of chasey Sonny, you chase me first ok..... :laugh:

She was rearing to go. I'm like, back to bed the pair of you. Honestly! Then 5.50am she starts making a hell of a commotion in her crate. She could hear birds outside.So I had to let her out before she hurt herself

& I just thought I may as well start my day. So could go & lay down now after a 7 k walk/train/swim. Maybe I spoke too soon about the up dose of meds working. She must have heard me I think

Out of interest has Molly always been reactive/stressed since a puppy bianca?

Megan, thanks for your kind thoughts. And yes I do feel very guilty that Stella does seem to take the spotlight a lot of the time. Sonny is just a very easy dog, in general, very lay back boy. Couldn't be

any more opposites my 2 in personality. So Stella ends up getting more attention most of the time. Although I must say Sonny & I have our special time after brekkie everyday to have a cuddle & catch up.. I have

always done that since getting Stella for that very reason. I didn't want him to ever feel left out. I always feed him first, put his lead on first etc etc as well. I really hope he doesn't feel left out at all,

but I still feel guilty.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BC Crazy

[disintegratus]

Does anyone ever feel guilty at how their "spechul" dog has impacted their other dog? Fergus has a great temp but is submissive and sometimes reacts to things because Lucy does (never reacts when she's not there). As soon as he realises they're a friend he calms right down, but I feel guilty for breaking him a bit...

Thundercleese gets walked alone (or very very occasionally with Harley if the OH is walking with me) so that's not an issue, but I do feel a little bit bad that his reactivity has had an impact on the other dogs in that I'm a lot more wary of just letting them offlead at the park or beach etc, I get paranoid (even though there's no precedent or any real reason to be)

I also feel bad that Thundercleese plays very roughly, and he's taught the new one Bones how to play, so now I think she's not very good at playing nicely, and instead thinks "playing" means the usual "beat the tar outta each other for funsies"

[megan_]

I love, love the name Thundercleese!

For me, the guilt stems from the impact she has on Fergus. As I said, he has a great temp but is submissive, so sometimes takes cues from her. I feel as though I've ruined him a bit IYKWIM? He is perfectly fine when she's not reacting. She actually redirected aggression onto him once or twice over 2 years ago, but now that her reactivity on walks is well managed this doesn't happen.

In some ways he has been perfect for her (she was terrified when I got her, but he was so gentle and gave her so much space. She would have hated an in-your-face dog). However, I think she would do better with a more assertive dog - one that said "stop being silly little bitch!".

However, they have each other and get along really, really well. I have two well behaved dogs, even if one is fearful. They provide me, and each other, with lots of happiness. I just sometimes get the guilts .

Funny thing is, if I take him somewhere without her, I feel guilty about that too!

[BC Crazy]

Mine are always together, even get walked together. They get along famously well. They play lots but Sonny is the boss. Which suprises me but it works out well. He is not challanged by Stella.

I feel guilty if I walk one without the other, thats why I just walk them together.

When Stella is having a moment Sonny doesn't seem to worry about it. Apart from the look on his at times when she is really going "off" it's like, 'eye's roll. Here we go again. LOL

I feel the same as you megan. I have 2 well behaved dogs although one does have her share of issues but she isn't a naughty girl. Sonny is a confident,friendly & all round lovely dog. Natures gentlemen.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

Jakes been on Prozac for about a month now and I think the effects are starting to come through. I now go to bathroom by myself about 60 percent if the time... bit lonely!! He's becoming quite confident in exploring the garden away from me and has taken to chasing rats in the evening. He confidently gallops down the driveway away from me after a walk and leaps into his clam shell and wallows around. We have 2 kid lets staying with us, the first day I took him away when he started looking a bit wild eyed but he learned fast and started going to a different room when he had enough. Kidlets are 4 and 6 and have no dog experience but have quickly learned to get Jake to do his tricks and they seem to be enjoying each others company. One got in the bath to help soap him up whilst the other fed him treats from the side today. Best of all he has had some fairly positive dog experiences this week. As will happen I walked slap bang into a Samoyed coming around a corner, I knew we had a dog behind us so just yelled a quick sorry and walked rapidly across the road, he cried and squeaked a bit but "came with me" and didn't try pull towards the dog. Yesterday we walked past a Cav twice, he was a bit noisy on the first sighting but was able to take treats, passed the same dog a bit later and he was enough under control that the other owner and I were able to chat across the road to each other!!! Today we had to exit the bush past 2 off leashers, my daughter went ahead to warn the owner and I walked him past the two dogs without one bark or yell, he kept walking and looking at the dogs but was able to break eye contact to look at me for a treat for the entire length of the football field!!! I never formally taught him LAT but Vicki got him to look away for a treat on our first visit , ( perfect timing) and since then he has built on this and won't offer it spontaneously but once cued will now fairly easily look and depending on the day will need more or less cueing. Holding thumbs this keeps going.

[bianca.a]

That is a brilliant update Hankdog!

[BC Crazy]

Hi folks & happy new year to everybody. We are back home safe & sound after hols in Victoria. Must report that Stella was so well behaved the whole car journey which is 24 hours round trip in total, just amazing

both of them guys didn't make a sound. We stopped every 3 hours or so to get out & stretch our legs etc without a problem. We stayed with family who have a lovely fully fenced big backyard that both Stella & Sonny enjoyed to

the max. Running around their huge rose garden. Stella hardly made a sound, no crying or frantically running around, nothing.... She was totally calm for the whole 2 weeks.

Now this is the part I just don't understand, as soon as we get home to her own familiar yard she reverts back to her frantic behaviour the minute I open the gate to let her in. All the crying, whining & blind running starts.

I couldn't even approach her yesterday arvo to try & calm her down because she was just running blind, in an almost trance like state. It was way to hot for her Thunder shirt. So even if I could of caught her which I couldn't

I couldn't of put that on. I was very upset as she had been so relaxed until then. I went through the differences between the 2 backyards in my head to try & come up with a possible trigger for such behaviour. There are a couple

of things. The yard on hols didn't have any people looking in on us like we have all along our boundary fence, double story houses with balconies facing our b.yard. Maybe this upsets her ???

There is also one very loud dog behind us that barks a bit at home that always seems to set her off & once she is in a heightened state anything after that only adds to the frenzied behaviour.

Just so upsetting as she can be so calm,for an extended period of time as I have witnessed it now & she comes to the safest place she can be, home, & she is a cot case Poor girl... I am at a loss as to what else I can do

for her now, besides move house, which I am thinking about. I know it sounds extreme but this is very extreme behaviour & upsets/worries me so much. So afraid she is going to hurt herself or have a heart attack or something.

ATM she is sound asleep under the table on our back deck after a big beach run/swim so she is tired & the meds really help her with that. But it will be short lived as the frenzied stuff usually starts early afternoon

Edited January 5, 2013 by BC Crazy

[corvus]

BC Crazy, it may just be powerful conditioning. Usually this is what medication is aimed at overcoming. You can see for yourself that a dog can't get better if their emotional associations are extremely strong and negative. If the cues are there (e.g. "My yard, where all the scary stuff happens"), the emotional response can be so strongly conditioned that it's like an avalanche. But don't despair. Getting the right medication should help a lot, but fiddling with doses to get it right is pretty normal, I think. In the meantime, maybe you could try really shaking up her routine at home to see if you can disrupt whatever cues she is using. It might be stressful for her, but can it be any worse than what she's already experiencing? I would look for patterns in when she's at her worse. For example, my Erik is always at his worst at about 9am on a weekday. My partner has gone to work, his arousal has peaked naturally for some reason, he's anxious I'm going to leave him, and often I'm moving around the house doing things where I can't be at his beck and call. I have tried lots of things to derail his behaviour at this time, and had moderate success with things like massage and using the Thundershirt pre-emptively to help him start the day with lower arousal. Currently I'm doing down-stays on a mat where I can. Giving him a frozen Kong also helps get his mind off the routine.

[anniek]

You'd rather risk losing your dog or getting a dangerous dog tag? I'd take a live, injured dog over a council ordered dead dog.

How can a council make a destruction order over a leashed dog versus a dog wandering at large in leash restricted area?

they can they do and they have - if the leashed dog does the most damage - kills the offleash dog

so you do need to protect your own dog and that could mean wearing a muzzle

[hankdog]

It's probably a bit like a drug addict that can be cured away from their environment but as soon as they return home all the old triggers cue their addiction. Apparently a lot of Vietnam soldiers took drugs whilst involved in the war but on returning home where able to give up without any difficulty since their home environment was never associated with drug taking which could explain why she was better away from home. Moving would be extreme but if I thought it would help I'd probably consider it. Oh the things we do for our dogs. Would a backyard makeover help? Maybe less extreme than moving.

[hankdog]

Well done to the two of you. It must have been slightly stressful for the J-man to be holidaying in someone else's territory so even more remarkable that he has been able to keep his head together. Good luck for "big school" this year!

[hankdog]

We have had a bad experience in which Jake learned that dogs do run around and attack you during which your owner then inflicts more pain by not allowing you to defend yourself but drags you away with a prong collar. This has set him back in seemingly all areas, he's throwing major tantrums if he thinks a dogs around, he needs to sleep in my bed and follow me to the bathroom again. We went back to training with Vicki last night and instead of being desensitized to dogs he's become sensitized to her house. So we are going to give any dog exposure a miss for a while and try doing Karen Pryors "101 things to do with a box". I've never done clicker training before and it's going to be a very different experience for Jake as he is a slightly suspicious, reserved dog so not really a dog that would wander over and investigate a box normally. I do like how the dogs on the video look so engaged and they look like they're really thinking, I would be very happy if I can get the little guy doing that. So has anybody had a similar setback through a negative experience, how did you recover and how long did it take? Any advice would be appreciated. I have also received my new stout leather martingale and I'm considering dropping the prong. His walking is very good now and I don't want to put him through another drag across the road. The pain did not deter him or control him in the emergency but probably heightened the negative impact. I'm so confused now.

[corvus]

We have had a bad experience in which Jake learned that dogs do run around and attack you during which your owner then inflicts more pain by not allowing you to defend yourself but drags you away with a prong collar. This has set him back in seemingly all areas, he's throwing major tantrums if he thinks a dogs around, he needs to sleep in my bed and follow me to the bathroom again.

Sorry to hear that. Setbacks are kinda part of life, but it's particularly problematic with dogs like Jake that are really kind of on the edge of what they can handle in life in general in the first place. Poor Jake. It's totally up to you, but have you looked into something like a harness with multiple attachment points? LIke this http://www.springerloaded.co.uk/#/ttouch-training-harness-info/4554385828 It might make him feel a bit more secure and still give you the leverage to guide him physically.

We went back to training with Vicki last night and instead of being desensitized to dogs he's become sensitized to her house. So we are going to give any dog exposure a miss for a while and try doing Karen Pryors "101 things to do with a box". I've never done clicker training before and it's going to be a very different experience for Jake as he is a slightly suspicious, reserved dog so not really a dog that would wander over and investigate a box normally. I do like how the dogs on the video look so engaged and they look like they're really thinking, I would be very happy if I can get the little guy doing that. So has anybody had a similar setback through a negative experience, how did you recover and how long did it take? Any advice would be appreciated. I have also received my new stout leather martingale and I'm considering dropping the prong. His walking is very good now and I don't want to put him through another drag across the road. The pain did not deter him or control him in the emergency but probably heightened the negative impact. I'm so confused now.

I'm not exactly sure what Vicki's aim was, but my guess would be with 101 things to do with a box, your aim should be to click and treat him for doing pretty much anything at all. I find it a bit of a dicey game to be honest. I don't play it with either of mine. Kivi is too risk averse by nature to feel comfortable taking lots of chances with new behaviours. It took me about a year to get him to the point where he can be clicker trained to do the kinds of tricks Erik does. I use targeting with him for most new behaviours. I really don't think he likes free shaping. He whinges and gets stressed. Erik can be free shaped quite easily, but you can bet he'll get frustrated. So I only free shape him when I have to. Which is basically never. I would suggest that you focus on clicking for "trying". And do it in short bouts. Reinforcement that is not contingent on behaviour can be almost as stressful as punishment not contingent on behaviour. What you don't want to do is seemingly reward him randomly. He should feel that he knows how to get a click and that is by trying something.

That's my suggestion anyway. Might be best to check with Vicki.

I'm not sure who recommended the prong in the first place and why. I guess it is up to you. I would dump it, but what do I know? I have an aversion for any equipment that delivers punishments automatically. Bad experiences. If there is one thing I want to be in complete control of if possible it's delivering aversives. I am completely biased, though.

[corvus]

We think that maybe the length of time he's been uprooted from his home and with a much more boisterous dog 24/7 is starting to take it's toll a little bit and he was wanting space and is starting to feel a bit unsure about whether other dogs will listen to what he's communicating. Quite often Hugo doesn't understand that when Justice turns his head or body away that he's had enough and I have to intervene so Justice gets the space he's seeking, so he's choosing to avoid rather than risk not being listened to. Over the past week or so Justice has been taking himself off to another room more and more often and for longer periods of time which would tie in with what Amy observed today.

It's really hard, we face this a lot with Erik. He doesn't like strange dogs mouthing him or buffeting him. They can do it if he is friends with them, but he HAS to know they will back off when he asks before they are considered friends. It's all about trust. We have a lot of problems particularly with bully breeds and puppies not noticing when he's asking them to stop. He asks very politely, then he suddenly snaps and drives them off aggressively. I have heavily reinforced asking politely and don't wait around to see how it will pan out. If the other dog doesn't back off immediately I move as fast as I can to intervene. I have given several people apologetic explanations while I body block their dog. They are usually very understanding. I really like his polite "please don't" signals, and I badly want to preserve them. If they don't work when he needs them he'll stop using them, and they do work for many dogs and give me a chance to avert disaster with those they don't work on. He has got into a fight or two before trying to drive off a dog that wasn't listening to him. It's not good for his wellbeing. The more he has to do it the more he will jump straight to it instead of trying the polite version first, and he'll work backwards from there to doing it pre-emptively. But you know all this. This is how we end up with dog aggressive dogs.

One thing I love is cueing Erik to walk between my legs. Parked there with a leg on either side of him, he is protected from the other dog and I am in a good position to intervene. If the dog comes head on he can scoot backwards and I can block the dog with my legs. Often all he needs is a barrier so he can have a break from being roughed up. It doesn't always work, but it works often enough that sometimes Erik will nuzzle his way in there from behind without being cued if he is feeling stressed.

[hankdog]

Yes I ditched the prong today, I think it was necessary when I first got it as Jake just paid no attention to me at all but since he has lovely leash walking and good manners until a dogs present, in which case he ignores it, I think it's done it's dash. I just took delivery of my lovely leather martingale in which I have every confidence I'm going with that for now. I have a harness as back up strapped to my waist belt but in my panic last week didn't switch to that. I have just ordered a dexil harness with a no dogs logo embroidered on it, if I could get a flashing neon sign for my head I'd do that too.

I think the aim of doing the clicker is to just get myself and Jake doing something positive together and then we will try doing it at her house since he's now antsy about being there. I've decided to give him biltong only during his sessions with her, (dried SouthAfrican beef jerky stuff that smells). He loves it but it will be interesting to see if he becomes sensitized to that.

When I walked him today he startled at every thing and everyone but I was able to do LAT on each occasion so at least that skill is back. Surprisingly he conditioned to the click yesterday. I did 4 short box sessions today. Just going for any look at the box, first session he got frustrated after a minute and lay down and snored. Second time he got a few clicks but seemed to suspect the box as being important. Third session he started offering different tricks, mostly barking( he has this as a trick, bad idea on my part), but he got in a few looks and fourth session straight away with looking until we had finished all his dinner and I put the box away. Very proud of tubster, did not think he would get it.

Did you train going between your legs as a trick, I think he would feel more secure doing this, but how to do?

Edited January 9, 2013 by hankdog

[corvus]

Did you train going between your legs as a trick, I think he would feel more secure doing this, but how to do?

Yeah, I did. I think I lured it. He really didn't like it at first. He's a herder and is a touch sensitive about body space. So I fed him tons of treats when he was there and he quickly got over his initial dislike of it and it became his favourite trick. He already had a habit of walking under things or between legs when he was trying to get a break from another dog, so it was easy to get him doing it on cue if I saw he was trying to get a break and couldn't. He's funny now. He gets in there and it's like a security blanket. He relaxes and his personal bubble gets smaller so he can cope with things closer than he otherwise could. If he's feeling a bit like there's too much going on, I tell him to go there and he can look around and take things in without getting so over-stimulated. I taught it to Kivi as well, with targeting my hand and luring him in from behind me. He is also pretty fond of it, but nothing special for him.

The most common mistake newbies to clicker training make is too low a reinforcement rate. Aim for a click every couple of seconds. It's a lot, but that't the point. You get in so many click/treats the dog is like "Wowsers! This game is awesome!" If you can't find enough to click, be less picky. :)

Good luck! Glad to hear he's doing LAT at least. If Erik has a rough day or two it usually takes him another couple of days before he's back to normal. It used to take more like a week. I wouldn't be surprised if it was longer for Jake. He's probably feeling it more keenly than Erik does.

[BC Crazy]

Thanks everyone for your input & ideas regarding Stella. Corvus, Hankdog, Snook & all. You always make me feel a bit better. As we all know these reactive can be extremely hard work at times.

I love this particular thread. I get so much advice / help. I have learn't lots as well as just knowing I'm not alone, with a DA, reactive girl.

Good news is Stella has settled down a bit of late. No where near where I'd like her to be but a smiggen better at home. Great news is she has really improved when we are out with other dogs

The other day we actually socialised for about a hour with 2 GR's off lead , one young & one aged & while Stella wasn't over the moon about them hanging around us or me in particular. There was no growling,ugly faces

or stand over tactic's. She was a little frozen for a while but she did warm up towards the end It has also been very crowed at our beach lately with tourists etc & the other day we had JetSki with loads

of people right next to us & Stella didn't put a foot wrong. I was very pleasantly surprised. She didn't try & chase the Jetski or bark or anything, just sat right next to me & watched them. Wonderful We had

a jackpot of treats for that behaviour :D

Edited January 13, 2013 by BC Crazy