Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[megan_]

Well done JulesP's dogs - they went above and beyond.

We had a similar experience at agility - fortunately it was my "hey, just chill" Fergus who was with me at the time. A dog was constantly breaking, doing zoomies and harassing him (on the few occasions that she actually got past me) and he just remained in his sit (he was preparing to do his jumps). I would have released him had she got in his face as it isn't fair to ask him to hold a sit while a dog jumps all over him, but even while this dog zoomed back and forth 1m away from him he stayed sitting beautifully.

Good boy. Lucy would have told this dog where to go after a minute or two...not that I'd blame her...

Good news on hte meds, BC Crazy. My vet gave us some but I haven't used them as Lucy is well controlled and isn't frantic. Stella must be enjoying having a break from fretting.

[sheena]

Well done Jules. You must have been on tender hooks for a while.

Not sure if this is my imagination or not (don't think so). The last couple of times I have been to a trial or just hanging about at training waiting our turn & my girl starts to carry on like a Tassie Devil, I have just straddled her, holding her gently but firmly between my legs & holding the back of her collar (just gently). A couple of times she has made an attempt to back out, but quickly settles again when she realises I "have her". It really seems to have calmed her down & when its her turn to line up, she goes like a rocket. Just wondering, if holding the dog this way may be similar to having a thunder shirt on. It's only early days yet, & I will test it out this weekend at a two day trial.

[BC Crazy]

Well done Jules. You must have been on tender hooks for a while.

Not sure if this is my imagination or not (don't think so). The last couple of times I have been to a trial or just hanging about at training waiting our turn & my girl starts to carry on like a Tassie Devil, I have just straddled her, holding her gently but firmly between my legs & holding the back of her collar (just gently). A couple of times she has made an attempt to back out, but quickly settles again when she realises I "have her". It really seems to have calmed her down & when its her turn to line up, she goes like a rocket. Just wondering, if holding the dog this way may be similar to having a thunder shirt on. It's only early days yet, & I will test it out this weekend at a two day trial.

Hi Sheena, funny you should say about holding your dog between your legs. I don't know what it is but I also do this with my reactive girl when she looks like she is about to erupt & have found she doesn't seem to get as upset & quietens down far more easily on most occassions. Funny is't it. Maybe it is a security thing. Who knows :)

[hankdog]

Well it's great that Stella is calming down, I don't think that we should feel guilty about medicating dogs. Many people can only live a normal life medicated and I'm sure that's the same for dogs.

Snook my Jake finds a dog walking towards him the worst thing in the world, maybe in the hierarchy of dog scariness this is the final frontier. But going on a group walk is a massive achievement so well done Justice.

A little laugh at Jakes expense, we play a game where I throw chicken pieces around and I normally do this in the driveway so he can see the chicken. He took a while to get the game and it took a bit if help from the thieving magpies before he really understood to run out and fetch the chicken. So I thought we could extend the game and throw his dentastick onto the lawn. I got him all excited, well as much as you get a bulldog excited, told him to fetch and threw the dentastick. Yay Jake totally got it, turned opposite direction and ran to the driveway and started sniffing around for his treats. Clearly he missed out on gravity training as well as socialization.

Edited October 9, 2012 by hankdog

[hankdog]

Yay , just made an amazing discovery from reading a different thread, there are fenced dog pens at the st Ives Showgrounds!! Also from reading another thread I think Megan mentioned that some owners are not very exciting for their dogs. Made me realise that I'm as boring as bat dung for Jake, pretty much just boss him around and feed him. So I've been trying to teach him zoomies and most of his food now gets thrown around. So I headed off to these dog pens today, there were three dogs having a ball game in one so I spoke to the owner and explained about Jake and she was very understanding and her dogs all looked really stable so we went into a pen, took about 5 minutes of running around for him to settle but he did eventually and then we were able to do some training. The other dogs were having a lovely game and he would occasionally look over and give off a bark but I just kept going, using the BI if he really started losing it but otherwise just keeping him moving. Once the other dogs left I took him off leash and he ran straight to the fence to look for them so he knew they were there but was able to mostly overcome the urge to lose it. Anyway I hyped him up with running around and throwing treats and he seemed to enjoy himself. I rarely see him from a distance but his breeding has succeeded in creating an athletic bulldog and when I see him running around I am struck by the fact that he could acquit himself well against a bull????. I will also say that the hand feeding has created a really good recall in him, I've never trained recall but wherever he is the garden I can call him to me instantly and today off leash he recalled really quickly. So happy.

[bianca.a]

Hi all,

I'm new here but have a highly reactive GSD, Miss Molly.

BC Crazy may I ask please what medication your girl is on please? Molly has been prescribed Prozac to try.

[BC Crazy]

Hi Bianca.a & welcome :)

Re medication for Molly. My girl is on Enep & it's made a huge difference to her. She is much more relaxed & alot less anxious without it affecting her natural charactor, which is very alert, fast & switched on :) sorry am heaps tired cause been at bc show in sydney, will talk 2moz :)

OK, Biannca.a I'm back in the land of the living :laugh: Just wanted to add that our Vet did say that Prozac was another option for us, along with Ritalin. He did think that Endep would suit us best though & so far I would have

to agree. Good luck with whatever you choose & let us know how you get on. I'm interested to know :)

Edited October 14, 2012 by BC Crazy

[bianca.a]

Thank you BC, I appreciate it :) You girl sounds very similar to Molly, she is anxious in general I am waiting on a supplement called Cholodin to try and if that doesn't help, then I will start her on the Prozac (I have it here already).

She totally flipped out yesterday on our walk, there was a dog behind a fence and she spotted it before I did. She was on her easy walk harness and was so crazy she literally flipped over

Thank you Snook :)

[BC Crazy]

Yes, it's not just ocassionally that they are anxious, if your Molly is anything like my girl. Stella used to go off at anything. A bird could land in next door tree & she'd be off,

not just for a second, Stella would run crying for hours.Frantic She also has literally flipped right over on lead as well. Usually does 360's & spins really fast. Snapping, snarling & carrying on

I have to stay one step ahead of her when out & about. Check anything on coming, behind us & everywhere in between. She has improved on meds though but DA is still an issue with certain dogs. She is a lot more

relaxed in our back yard, & even when we are out walking at times which is wonderful. Love the pic of Molly on your banner Biannca by the way, lovely :)

Just had to edit: I haven't heard of Cholodin before. Is it an anti depressant? I was a bit shocked that you can use human meds on animals but seems to be working for us & have heard others have used it to.

It is also cheaper than any canine version, so that's another plus I figure.

Edited October 17, 2012 by BC Crazy

[bianca.a]

Thank you so very much BC, it is nice (in a way not for either of our dogs though!) to know I am not alone. Stella sounds exactly like Molly. Thank you for the compliment :)

Cholodin is something a friend whose GSD went nutty suggested I try. I figure I can only try and if it doesn't help, then the Prozac it will be.

This is what I have ordered:

http://www.healthypets.com/chca50tach.html

And a bit more detail:

Choline: From the link below - "Choline, like folate, is a nutrient that helps with brain and memory development. It is an essential nutrient that is required for life’s most basic functions, such as normal cell activity, liver function and transporting nutrients throughout the body." (it has been linked to a reduced risk of dementia. AHA!)

http://www.cholineinfo.org/index.asp

Phosphatidylcholine From the link below. "possibly improves brain function and memory capacity" Also helps with liver functions and helps other cells do their job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylcholine

dl-methionineFrom the (difficult to read) link below: "Several studies showed that methionine restriction also increses lifespan and inhibits aging-related disease processes"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methionine

Inositol "is a member of the family of B-Complex vitamins and is an essential pet vitamin for dogs and cats. In addition to being used for energy production, Inositol has a calming effect on your pets brain." (again, AHA!)

http://www.drcarol.com/Inositol-for-Dogs-and-Cats

Ow wow that is great the Endep is cheaper, 28 days of Prozac for Moo cost $63 eek!

[BC Crazy]

WOW Bianca the Prozac is pricey ! Endep is $22 for 6 weeks. Maybe you could inquire about it. Wouldn't hurt to ask. Save yourself some $$. Thanks for the info & links, I will read up on that :)

Yes it is nice to know we are alone. I just knew something wasn't quite right with my sweet girl. I have had BC's since childhood & never witnessed behaviour like it It is very upsetting for all concerned. So a little bit of relief is a god send.

[Aidan3]

Choline: From the link below - "Choline, like folate, is a nutrient that helps with brain and memory development. It is an essential nutrient that is required for life’s most basic functions, such as normal cell activity, liver function and transporting nutrients throughout the body." (it has been linked to a reduced risk of dementia. AHA!)

http://www.cholineinfo.org/index.asp

Phosphatidylcholine From the link below. "possibly improves brain function and memory capacity" Also helps with liver functions and helps other cells do their job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylcholine

dl-methionineFrom the (difficult to read) link below: "Several studies showed that methionine restriction also increses lifespan and inhibits aging-related disease processes"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methionine

Inositol "is a member of the family of B-Complex vitamins and is an essential pet vitamin for dogs and cats. In addition to being used for energy production, Inositol has a calming effect on your pets brain." (again, AHA!)

http://www.drcarol.com/Inositol-for-Dogs-and-Cats

I'll be honest with you, if your dog isn't getting enough of any of these in his diet he has far bigger problems than being reactive. I would save the money.

If you want to try a dietary supplement that is likely to provide behavioural benefits, the Troy 'Behave' paste is your best bet. Tryptophan is the likely active ingredient that your dog will benefit from, which is a precursor to serotonin (the neurotransmitter than Endep and Prozac mostly work to increase).

If the 'Behave' works, then a cheaper source of tryptophan is 'Good as Gold' which you can buy from horse tack suppliers. 0.1gm/kg of 'Good as Gold' is about right (1 tsp for a large dog).

[kayla1]

I don't post very often but I do enjoy reading this thread to see what great results you are all getting.

Must admit to feeling a bit guilty because my own training has taken a backward step (or two, or three...) for various reasons this year, but hoping to get back into it. LAT is great so I'm planning on doing some more of that, with extra one on one training and walking (which will have the added benefit of improving my fitness level :laugh: ).

[bianca.a]

Thank you Aiden, I admit I do think she is beyond that but was hopeful!

Is Endep actually Amitriptiline (sp)?

[BC Crazy]

Biannca, I tried quite a few other products before Endep for Stella. Troy Behave, Tranquil, Dap spray & collar,Calm etc etc in the hope that one of these may work but I think being such a high drive girl, they just weren't effective. She had thunder shirt which does help. This is not to say that they won't work on Molly.

[Aidan3]

Biannca, I tried quite a few other products before Endep for Stella. Troy Behave, Tranquil, Dap spray & collar,Calm etc etc in the hope that one of these may work but I think being such a high drive girl, they just weren't effective.

It depends what the problem is, and the best diagnostic test seems to be a 'try it and see' approach. However, and this is important, any trial needs fair and objective measures. Whilst underlying affective states may change, learned behaviours may persist. So it's easy to get 'false negatives' (same with medication, although meds can be stronger and have other effects which are more noticeable).

My previous GSD was from working lines and tryptophan quite literally changed her life, so drive isn't necessarily a problem. She still had loads of drive after treatment, also.

But yeah, meds often provide the only real solution for truly biological causes of anxious, fearful, and reactive behaviour.

[corvus]

Also be careful not to confuse lower arousal with less anxiety. I've had times when I have put a Thundershirt on Erik and while the barking and pacing stops, his heart is still pounding like he's running a race and he's panting. He looks outwardly much more relaxed, but it hasn't improved his emotional state at all, really. Just kind of short-circuited the arousal feedback system. I figure that medication should always be considered carefully and be administered along with a behavioural modification program of some sort, but sometimes making it a last resort is just prolonging the dog's suffering. If they can't relax in their own home, or are regularly completely flipping out and getting hysterical, that is a really big deal. I would say don't mess around and just go straight to medication. Who cares if it could have been solved by something else? Maybe it wouldn't have been. Sometimes it's in the dog's best interests to make it a priority to bring their anxiety down as soon and as quickly as possible, and nothing much is going to do that better than medication. It's generally very safe. There's no reason to pussyfoot around.

[BC Crazy]

Also be careful not to confuse lower arousal with less anxiety. I've had times when I have put a Thundershirt on Erik and while the barking and pacing stops, his heart is still pounding like he's running a race and he's panting. He looks outwardly much more relaxed, but it hasn't improved his emotional state at all, really. Just kind of short-circuited the arousal feedback system. I figure that medication should always be considered carefully and be administered along with a behavioural modification program of some sort, but sometimes making it a last resort is just prolonging the dog's suffering. If they can't relax in their own home, or are regularly completely flipping out and getting hysterical, that is a really big deal. I would say don't mess around and just go straight to medication. Who cares if it could have been solved by something else? Maybe it wouldn't have been. Sometimes it's in the dog's best interests to make it a priority to bring their anxiety down as soon and as quickly as possible, and nothing much is going to do that better than medication. It's generally very safe. There's no reason to pussyfoot around.

Yes I agree corvus. My main objective was to lower her anxiety/stress levels ASAP. I did trail alternatives for a short time just in case I came across something that helped her & some thing's did slightly help but not

enough to stop her suffering. Now she can actually lay down & rest in our backyard most afternoons, which is a first. Also if she does get upset for whatever reason she seems to recover far quicker where as before she would

of remained anxious for hours after wards.

[BC Crazy]

Biannca, I tried quite a few other products before Endep for Stella. Troy Behave, Tranquil, Dap spray & collar,Calm etc etc in the hope that one of these may work but I think being such a high drive girl, they just weren't effective.

It depends what the problem is, and the best diagnostic test seems to be a 'try it and see' approach. However, and this is important, any trial needs fair and objective measures. Whilst underlying affective states may change, learned behaviours may persist. So it's easy to get 'false negatives' (same with medication, although meds can be stronger and have other effects which are more noticeable).

My previous GSD was from working lines and tryptophan quite literally changed her life, so drive isn't necessarily a problem. She still had loads of drive after treatment, also.

But yeah, meds often provide the only real solution for truly biological causes of anxious, fearful, and reactive behaviour.

Interesting Aidan & really good that tryptophan helped your GSD. Certainly have to agree with the 'try it & see' approach.

[megan_]

We're just back from agility where we had an incident: I handled it terribly but Lucy was BRILLIANT!

We were working on the tunnel and she'd just run through when an off leash dog (also in class, but owner doesn't seem to work on engagement) came running to her to play. He was friendly but very bouncy and drivey - the kind of dog that she hates. I knew if he jumped on her she would react - and he was much bigger than her, so she would come off second best and he'd barely have a scratch.

The owner stood there and gave a half-hearted "come". She made no attempt to actually get her dog (if they don't come, you go and fetch your dog). This was after I had told her 10 mins ago that my girl was reactive and we needed space.

I yelled. I don't mean "spoke with a loud voice" I mean a panic-stricken "WWAAAGGGHHH GET YOUR DOG NOW! NO! NOOOO! WAAAGGGHHHHH EEEEEKKKKKKK". I finally threw food at the dog but he didn't take it - he wanted to play with Lucy (he is a high prey diven dog so I didn't like her chances). I then at least managed to get eye contact with her.

Lucy on the other hand was wonderful. She kept calm and gently evaded the other dog - she wasn't looking for a fight. She kept looking at me the whole time. When the other dog finally left she sat beautifully in front of me, totally calm. I gave her a handful of treats and told her she was good. The instructor then kept on telling me not to panic, which of course I knew. I saw someone roll their eyes at me. I did at least hear the instructor tell the lady that her dog needed a recall.

The other owner never even apologised and continued to work her dog off leash! Grrr. I know I didn't handle the situation well but I hate feeling guilty when my dog wasn't actually the offender. If I ever teach agility there will be a "if your dog leaves you just once they are on leash for the rest of the lesson and you have to work on engagement exercises until you can prove your dog is more interested in you than other dogs".

ETA: Lucy was off leash the whole time, which makes her reaction even better. I had no way of blocking the other dog but she handled things so well.

Edited October 20, 2012 by megan_