Breeding To Better

[Ellie]

Most breeders provide a decent life for their dogs but they cannot offer the kind of life a retired dog would get in a private home either with one on one attention or as one of only two or three dogs. If the dog is going to get a "better" life retired in a companion home I really can't see what the problem is.

Yes I work in breed rescue too, and yes there are one or two breeders whose dogs are regulars in the rescue environment. They are by far the minority of the breeding community, and whinging on the internet doesn't stop them. If anyone has some ideas on how to stop them, that don't involve bagging the other 95 per cent, I'll be happy to hear you out. Better people than me have tried.

As Sway says, there is good and bad in every walk of life, and breeders could run this thread to pages and pages about iffy owners who do the wrong thing. The amount of time and space spent bagging breeders and showies on DOL over the last few weeks has just been phenomenal.

Good post.

[LizT]

I agree! But what also makes me really angry is the way the breeders you have mentioned ( i am in no way aiming this at all breeders as it does not apply) just want to offload their dogs once they are finished with them! They claim they want to better the breed ect ect but what about loving them and keeping them on as family pets after their show career is finished? Do they not care for these animals at all or is it all abt winning the show??? I understand that breeders sometimes cannot keep all the show dogs they raise ect, but to offload them to you completely unsocialised! What chance do they think the poor things have at finding a new home

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs???

[LizT]

Well then why do people bother showing their dogs - they must think they are contributing to the "betterment of the breed"? I don't know they would have to tell us. And why is it that puppy buyers on this forum are often advised to seek out a breeder who shows their dogs?

Showing and breeding are not mutually exclusive either.

I know of people who show dogs that they have neither breed nor intend to breed for a variety of reasons.

There are also many good breeders out there who, for various reasons, such as location etc. do not Show. Some simply do not wish to get caught up in the politics of Showing.

[New Age Outlaw]

Sorry I don't agree even slightly that any specific number of litters be it a large number or a small number in any way indicates the ethics of a breeder.

Agreed...it's totally not what I meant. I worded it very badly (I blame lack of coffee). I was more meaning a bitch having endless litter after litter on every season without any thought to her physical well-being, as opposed to a well planned breeding plan.

[LizT]

Sorry I don't agree even slightly that any specific number of litters be it a large number or a small number in any way indicates the ethics of a breeder.

Agreed...it's totally not what I meant. I worded it very badly (I blame lack of coffee). I was more meaning a bitch having endless litter after litter on every season without any thought to her physical well-being, as opposed to a well planned breeding plan.

Not permitted within the guidelines of the ANKC, so hopefully not a Registered Breeder and someone who isn't even slightly interested in their breed as a whole.

[Jay57]

My boy is 7 years old, he came from a reputable breeder, is an Australian champion , was the bloodlines I wanted for my girls , he has been here for about 4 months now and is an absolute little treasure, this will be his forever home now, he is part of our family , I will keep one of his sons to run on, he is very sociable, well mannered , excellent temperment , I cannot thank the breeder enough for letting me have this special little fellow, there is ethical breeders , in the same breath I cringe when I see bitches that have been speyed looking for new homes and desexed males advertised , as breeders and owners we owe these dogs love and commitment or we need to know the home personally they are going to, my boy came from a fellow breeder and I also have a bitch that I have had for numerous years from her, he was never advertised or not wanted, the breeder just felt he would have a better life still having his girls than being desexed

[Roova]

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs???

Wouldn't it depend on what the dog does whilst at the show though? Going from crate to ring and back again might not necessarily be great socialisation. I imagine the travelling, sounds and being exposed to different dogs (even if from a distance) would still be of some benefit though.

[LizT]

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs???

Wouldn't it depend on what the dog does whilst at the show though? Going from crate to ring and back again might not necessarily be great socialisation. I imagine the travelling, sounds and being exposed to different dogs (even if from a distance) would still be of some benefit though.

A dog doesn't have to be in another dogs face to be socialised. Even just sitting on a grooming table can help a dog become comfortable with lots of people around. Then there is trying to negotiate your way into the ring and waiting around at the marshalling area, being handled by a total stranger in the ring. Then there is warming up and practising, toileting, going for a walk just to pass time or to stretch your limbs (and the dogs). Going up to the Kiosk for a coffee and snack. Stopping to 'chat' with an aquaintence. Always heaps happening.

Edited January 9, 2012 by LizT

[dancinbcs]

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs???

Wouldn't it depend on what the dog does whilst at the show though? Going from crate to ring and back again might not necessarily be great socialisation. I imagine the travelling, sounds and being exposed to different dogs (even if from a distance) would still be of some benefit though.

An unsocialised dog will not have any success in the showring. Walking in and around a show and even lining up to go in the ring for group judging, involves being in very close proximity to a lot of people and dogs. All show dogs need to be examined by strangers (judges) as well so socialisation doesn't come much better than that. A lot of show dogs that come from bigger kennels are not house trained but you would be hard pushed to find a dog that had been shown for a while that wasn't used to travel, grooming and was well socialised with dogs and people.

[Trisven13]

There are "breeders" and then there are Breeders, just like there is "owners" and then there are owners.

What you are seeing is not typical, however for it to be in such a concentrated area is a concern.

This is the part that jumps out at me. Consistently when rescuers talk about how many times they come across papered dogs whose breeders weren't overly interested we seem to have seen a higher percentage when I was running Albury Dog Rescue than other groups but even then we didn't see the numbers you are describing.

[LizT]

If some of this dogs are ec show and some state dogs have papers i'm assuming they are not all coming from BYB's.

These are completely different things.

It's perfectly possible for a BYB to breed dogs with "papers". The fact the dog has papers means absolutely nothing about the breeder's ethics.

Some people who show are nothing more than BYB's who have an inflated opinion of their own stock. Some people who show are extremely ethical.

"Papers" - Showing - neither has any bearing on the ethics or otherwise of the breeder concerned.

This is very true Sandra777, but those who have the ability to produce with "papers' are also subject to following the guidelines and regulations set about regarding breeding back to back litters and continually so have upon them restrictions not enforced on those who breed sans papers. So I don't know how the OP can refer to these dogs who are being breed back to back and producing endlessly as being "Show Dogs". The breeders would be held accountable.

[tommygirl]

I would like to know what breeds and what rescues the OP is referring to as I know for BTs, especially in Qld the figures mentioned are completley incorrect. We in fact havent had one ex-show dog in the last 12months up here. Unless you are actively involved in rescue making assumptions based on FB posts is off the mark.

The dogs we have had with papers have actually all been owner re-home for different reasons (moving etc).

Also- dogs we pick up out of a pound only have the opportunity to do very basic temp testing there. Alot of the time we have said better placed in home without cats, small kids etc, then when they have ended up in foster and tried again have been perfect around other animals/kids whatever it may be. But sometimes the best thing to do is warn people it may be an issue rather than get a dog home and they find out a hard way. Mine are very well socialised, but have never seen a chook, why would they in suburbia near a beach. I wouldnt tell people they are good with birds/livestock cause I dont know.

Again my exeperience with rescue we run but personally I dont think someone who browses FB posts and isnt involved in rescue has a true idea of it.

[Sandra777]

This is very true Sandra777, but those who have the ability to produce with "papers' are also subject to following the guidelines and regulations set about regarding breeding back to back litters and continually so have upon them restrictions not enforced on those who breed sans papers. So I don't know how the OP can refer to these dogs who are being breed back to back and producing endlessly as being "Show Dogs". The breeders would be held accountable.

Unfortunately it is perfectly possible to breed multiple litters outside the regulations and still get the pups registered - there's been many examples mentioned on here over the years of the breeder being slapped over the wrist with a wet bus ticket and the litter still being registered - to say nothing of breeding back to back and either selling every second litter without "papers" or "paper hanging". If the breeder has insufficient ethics to care about the welfare of their pups I doubt they would baulk at a "little bit of deception" to ensure they all sell for maximum price "with papers"

[DAVERI]

I’m sorry if it came across that I was having ago at breeders or rescue groups etc. That wasn’t my intention.

I know that there are many good breeders that do the right thing probably way more than the number that don’t.

I understand that a breeder and/or showy can’t always keep every dog.

What shocked me or surprised me was the number of dogs being listed on the sites that from reading the attached information are said to be ex show dogs or have been in the show ring or ex breeding bitches (and I’m not referring to being bred every heat) but state that they can’t be housed with other dogs etc., some of which I have read because they have only lived in runs etc. I assumed that if a breeder and/or showy is going to raise a dog that they are likely to re-home later for whatever reason that they would go to some effect to raise him or her in such a way that would better their chances of finding a good home (and I’m not saying every breeder or show home doesn’t).

If they have never been or lived around other dogs or children etc. this would limit them in finding a home. Not saying that a single home with no children or other animals is bad or not as good as one that has just stating that it gives them less options and its far easier to introduce a pup or young dog to this kind of home than an old dog or older dog. And we also know that older dogs are hard to re home than young dogs or pups so to better their chances why not go the extra mile. And I’m not saying people don’t just that it’s obvious that some aren’t.

Over the years I’ve bred horses and when doing so I’ve always kept in mind how a foal or horse is raised and trained so that if one day they need a new home the options are greater and therefore hopefully better. I did this because I loved them, I hopefully in a small way did my part to better them, and not just for the sake of the animal but the reputation also. Every one of them I loved dearly and still think of even though they are no longer mine. To me there is something special about bringing a life into the world and therefor I need to do my best to care for it. I see no real difference in seeing a foal take its first breath and a pup.

I have nothing against rescue groups. Without them the world would be a lot worse off and I hate to think of what would happen to the dogs that need them. Although I’ve not been involved in the running of a dog rescue group I have been involved over the years with horse rescue and taken in what I would consider rescue cases. And I’m not referring to dogs on the sites that are there because they have been found in pounds and shelters as I’m aware that they come with very limited history if any at all.

I do have some questions but!

My understanding of a BYB is someone that is not registered with a canine council, and/or is not breeding under a registered prefix of sort. How do you breed papered dogs if you are not breeding under a registered prefix (either your own or someone else’s).

And if a dog is being listed by a breeder or show home due to no longer showing or breeding etc. why do they need to list the dog on a RESCUE group? Surely they have the knowhow to advertised a dog if needed and sift through the good replies and the bad. Otherwise how else did they ever home a pup in the first place. Rescue groups should be left for dogs in real need that are on death row, impounded or in need of a foster career etc.

Sorry again nothing against anyone and sorry the post was so long.

[BJean]

I'd like to point out im a social member i don't run the sites, i don't run any resuce groups and i don't breed. some are bull terrier groups but not all. I think that the term to better the breed should include all aspects of the breed including the breeds reputation! If some of this dogs are ec show and some state dogs have papers i'm assuming they are not all coming from BYB's.

You said they were ex show dogs and ex breeding bitches.

You do understand that the activity of showing dogs in itself

amounts to 'socialisation'?

Bull Terriers, like some other breeds

do not readily accept other dogs once adults.

Moreover, dogs living under the same roof have little correlation to how a dog behaves with other dogs in a neutral setting.

My issue with your thread and pontifications about breeding for the betterment of the breed (sic)

is that they read like you do not know much about dog shows, dog interaction

and dare I say it, dog breeding.

That's no big deal in itself -

but when you make draw negative conclusions based on incomplete understanding or experience, and announce your statements as if what you say is fact

all you do is perpetuate bias and misinformation.

Edited January 9, 2012 by lilli

[BJean]

I understand that a breeder and/or showy can’t always keep every dog.

Yes, just like you can't keep every foal

or indeed every broodmare.

What shocked me or surprised me was the number of dogs being listed on the sites that from reading the attached information are said to be ex show dogs or have been in the show ring or ex breeding bitches (and I’m not referring to being bred every heat) but state that they can’t be housed with other dogs etc.

Some dogs just do not live well with other dogs, it is not so much about 'socialisation'

but the base nature of the dog.

A dog which is fine with other dogs in neutral territory, could be quite domineering in their own territory. And so, for the safety for all concerned and happy outcome of the rehomed dog and new family, the dog is better to be the only dog in the household.

I actually think it is prudent to rehome medium - large adult dogs to one dog households.

some of which I have read because they have only lived in runs etc. I assumed that if a breeder and/or showy is going to raise a dog that they are likely to re-home later for whatever reason that they would go to some effect to raise him or her in such a way that would better their chances of finding a good home (and I’m not saying every breeder or show home doesn’t).

Okay well this has little to do with breeding for the betterment of the breed.

If they have never been or lived around other dogs or children etc. this would limit them in finding a home. Not saying that a single home with no children or other animals is bad or not as good as one that has just stating that it gives them less options and its far easier to introduce a pup or young dog to this kind of home than an old dog or older dog. And we also know that older dogs are hard to re home than young dogs or pups so to better their chances why not go the extra mile. And I’m not saying people don’t just that it’s obvious that some aren’t.

How many dogs have you raised and what breeds are you familiar with?

Over the years I’ve bred horses and when doing so I’ve always kept in mind how a foal or horse is raised and trained so that if one day they need a new home the options are greater and therefore hopefully better.

A horse lives in a paddock not in the home.

Not to mention you cannot compare the psyche and social interation and requirements of a dog to a horse.

I have both dogs and horses and how I raise a puppy/dog

does not make it suitable to be rehomed into a multi dog household with children.

So much more is at stake with dogs than horses.

I did this because I loved them, I hopefully in a small way did my part to better them, and not just for the sake of the animal but the reputation also. Every one of them I loved dearly and still think of even though they are no longer mine. To me there is something special about bringing a life into the world and therefor I need to do my best to care for it. I see no real difference in seeing a foal take its first breath and a pup.

That's the problem.

Foals and puppies: very little correlation.

I have nothing against rescue groups. Without them the world would be a lot worse off and I hate to think of what would happen to the dogs that need them. Although I’ve not been involved in the running of a dog rescue group I have been involved over the years with horse rescue and taken in what I would consider rescue cases. And I’m not referring to dogs on the sites that are there because they have been found in pounds and shelters as I’m aware that they come with very limited history if any at all.

And if a dog is being listed by a breeder or show home due to no longer showing or breeding etc. why do they need to list the dog on a RESCUE group?

Surely they have the knowhow to advertised a dog if needed and sift through the good replies and the bad. Otherwise how else did they ever home a pup in the first place. Rescue groups should be left for dogs in real need that are on death row, impounded or in need of a foster career etc.

Why do the Rescue group list the dog?

RESCUE is becoming less and less about 'rescue'

but more and more about 'rehoming'.

Yes, to me there is a difference. But not so in the online world.

Edited January 9, 2012 by lilli

[dancinbcs]

What shocked me or surprised me was the number of dogs being listed on the sites that from reading the attached information are said to be ex show dogs or have been in the show ring or ex breeding bitches (and I’m not referring to being bred every heat) but state that they can’t be housed with other dogs etc., some of which I have read because they have only lived in runs etc. I assumed that if a breeder and/or showy is going to raise a dog that they are likely to re-home later for whatever reason that they would go to some effect to raise him or her in such a way that would better their chances of finding a good home (and I’m not saying every breeder or show home doesn’t).

If they have never been or lived around other dogs or children etc. this would limit them in finding a home. Not saying that a single home with no children or other animals is bad or not as good as one that has just stating that it gives them less options and its far easier to introduce a pup or young dog to this kind of home than an old dog or older dog.

And if a dog is being listed by a breeder or show home due to no longer showing or breeding etc. why do they need to list the dog on a RESCUE group? Surely they have the knowhow to advertised a dog if needed and sift through the good replies and the bad. Otherwise how else did they ever home a pup in the first place. Rescue groups should be left for dogs in real need that are on death row, impounded or in need of a foster career etc.

The dogs most likely to get rehomed from a breeder are those that do not get along with the pack. If you have 6 dogs you can run together and then one that causes trouble, that will be the one to go. These dogs can be perfectly happy in as lone dogs but make running multiple dogs difficult and they are less likely to be the temperament the breeder wants to perpetuate to "better the breed". If they are really aggressive they will be pts but if they just prefer to be loners, it is better to rehome them to a single dog situation so everyone is happy. Once a dog has become a fighter, even if it is only with one particular dog, it should never be rehomed with another adult dog.

Other times breeders get adult dogs back because they do not get on with the owners other dogs, are reactive with small children, chase smaller animals/birds, or whatever. They then need to find them a new home where the problem will not be an issue. Many breeders are single with no kids so it is irresponsible to rehome a dog not raised with children to a home with children. They may be socialised to meet kids in public but you have no idea how they would react to living with them if they never have before. I have a bomb proof dog that is used in schools for the pet ed program but I have no idea how he would react to living with toddlers. There is a big difference between small children patting a dog in a controlled situation and hitting the dog over the head with their toys, hugging, climbing over the dog, etc.

Finally I have no idea why a breeder would rehome through a rescue group unless they run it. Most breeders rehome their dogs directly, when and if the right home for each dog comes along. I have never heard of them using rescue to rehome dogs.

[Greytmate]

This is a really good topic.

When we say "socialisation" I don't think it means that we all have to have our dogs running around playing happily with other dogs and kiddies or whatever. I think this word has become very broad and started to take on meanings it really shouldn't. Not all dogs should be playing with other dogs.

There has been research done that shows that dogs living the kennel life really do need (breed appropriate) socialisation and also kennel enrichment to be at their best. This is really important for dogs that are going to be pets one day, and also for the welfare of the kennelled dog. This means the dog must be handled often and given the appropriate experiences during the critical socialisation phase. It means as the pups are raised into mature dogs they get to learn and play/work and be exercised and have their minds challenged. They should not just be left in a boring kennel all week between shows.. Obviously some breeders do not take the time to do this, and that is terrible if the dog is going to be sold as a pet.

I don't think it is ethical to sell a dog as a pet unless it is of pet quality, so ideally breeders should be socialising with this in mind, and some dogs shouldn't be rehomed as pets at all.

Lilli, it seems to me that your dogs have a very good purpose, but that purpose is not to be taken to a dog park to play with some labradors. I don't believe you would want to sell a dog to a family that would want to do that. But the majority of breeds are going to be sold as pets into homes in suburbia and they will be expected to tolerate other dogs. Daveri is right to be worried. This topic is about dogs being freely advertised as pets to unsuspecting people.

Dancinbcs, your last comment is interesting. When I ran GAP, I rehomed adult greyhounds on behalf of owners and breeders. I NEVER called this rescue. It was rehoming. By doing this, our one organisation was able to rehome many more dogs than individual breeders could alone. Each month I had dozens of applicants for dogs and dozens of dogs to match them to. We were able to assess the dogs so that only dogs of pet quality were rehomed, and then they were assessed further by foster families so they went to the right homes. And the best pet quality dogs are the ones that have had the socialisation and enrichment when they lived in a kennel. There is no reason why this sort of rehoming couldn't be done in other breeds if there is an excess of adult dogs needing homes in that breed. But it shouldn't be called rescue, because these are not rescue dogs.

[DAVERI]

I'd like to point out im a social member i don't run the sites, i don't run any resuce groups and i don't breed. some are bull terrier groups but not all. I think that the term to better the breed should include all aspects of the breed including the breeds reputation! If some of this dogs are ec show and some state dogs have papers i'm assuming they are not all coming from BYB's.

You said they were ex show dogs and ex breeding bitches.

You do understand that the activity of showing dogs in itself

amounts to 'socialisation'?

Bull Terriers, like some other breeds

do not readily accept other dogs once adults.

Moreover, dogs living under the same roof have little correlation to how a dog behaves with other dogs in a neutral setting.

My issue with your thread and pontifications about breeding for the betterment of the breed (sic)

is that they read like you do not know much about dog shows, dog interaction

and dare I say it, dog breeding.

That's no big deal in itself -

but when you make draw negative conclusions based on incomplete understanding or experience, and announce your statements as if what you say is fact

all you do is perpetuate bias and misinformation.

Well I’m sorry if I offended anyone by pointing out what I believed to be a concern to myself.

Nowhere have I ever stated these are facts or exact figures. As I do believe I have used the terms “about, almost, nearly etc.” none of which I believe would be used in a document that I was stating to be 100% correct in figures.I'm also not referring to one group, breed or one ad but a number of them.

What is offensive is that from reading a small post that you could claim to have any idea of me, my knowledge or experience. Other than I have stated that I said I’m not a breeder and I don’t run a rescue group or the site.

Let’s not ASSUME I have little knowledge of dog breeding etc. what is clear is that from one of your first replies, you had already miss read my original post.

I can assure you, I do understand how dog breeding works though I may be learning about the registration side and terms etc. used within a registered breeder social group and do not claim to know everything, but I have a high understanding of the reproductive system right down to the hormones, complications etc. (which I assume has something to do with breeding!)And I may have said that I'm not a breeder but I never said that in my life time I've never seen a litter born or raised a litter.

And although my experience with showing is mostly horse related I assume the principle would be the same.

I originally left it as breed specific groups because I didn’t want to make this about Bull terriers cause although some of the groups I was referring to are bully groups not all are. Just because I have a bully as my profile pic doesn’t mean they are the only breed I have an interest in. I don’t feel the need to list them all as it’s not about pointing the finger at a specific breed.

I may have forgot to add all the particulars in my original post etc. next time I will endeavour to include all facts and to state where I’ve made an assumption and get my point across more clearly, something I struggle with after having a stroke. Or maybe just one of the disadvantages of posting on a forum and not talking in person.

I'm not claiming to believe that dogs are the same as horses but the principles of breeding, showing and/or re homing are much the same.

Again sorry

[DAVERI]

This is a really good topic.

When we say "socialisation" I don't think it means that we all have to have our dogs running around playing happily with other dogs and kiddies or whatever. I think this word has become very broad and started to take on meanings it really shouldn't. Not all dogs should be playing with other dogs.

There has been research done that shows that dogs living the kennel life really do need (breed appropriate) socialisation and also kennel enrichment to be at their best. This is really important for dogs that are going to be pets one day, and also for the welfare of the kennelled dog. This means the dog must be handled often and given the appropriate experiences during the critical socialisation phase. It means as the pups are raised into mature dogs they get to learn and play/work and be exercised and have their minds challenged. They should not just be left in a boring kennel all week between shows.. Obviously some breeders do not take the time to do this, and that is terrible if the dog is going to be sold as a pet.

I don't think it is ethical to sell a dog as a pet unless it is of pet quality, so ideally breeders should be socialising with this in mind, and some dogs shouldn't be rehomed as pets at all.

Lilli, it seems to me that your dogs have a very good purpose, but that purpose is not to be taken to a dog park to play with some labradors. I don't believe you would want to sell a dog to a family that would want to do that. But the majority of breeds are going to be sold as pets into homes in suburbia and they will be expected to tolerate other dogs. Daveri is right to be worried. This topic is about dogs being freely advertised as pets to unsuspecting people.

Dancinbcs, your last comment is interesting. When I ran GAP, I rehomed adult greyhounds on behalf of owners and breeders. I NEVER called this rescue. It was rehoming. By doing this, our one organisation was able to rehome many more dogs than individual breeders could alone. Each month I had dozens of applicants for dogs and dozens of dogs to match them to. We were able to assess the dogs so that only dogs of pet quality were rehomed, and then they were assessed further by foster families so they went to the right homes. And the best pet quality dogs are the ones that have had the socialisation and enrichment when they lived in a kennel. There is no reason why this sort of rehoming couldn't be done in other breeds if there is an excess of adult dogs needing homes in that breed. But it shouldn't be called rescue, because these are not rescue dogs.