Breeding To Better

[BJean]

[Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. ....

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

I totally agree with you, oakway. All our dogs in recent times have been retired showdogs from ethical registered breeders. Whose only aim was to place their retired dogs in good pet homes they've screened thoroughly.....and which are likely to 'stick'.

I've also noticed that, until just the right home comes along, they will not part with a dog.

You are right that dogs sourced like this can give new owners many hours of pleasure.

The critical thing, is how they've been raised by their breeders. DOLers, in previous posts, have described how puppies need to be socialised.....and also how all the parent dogs need that continually, too. It's not only a matter of welfare as the dogs need to experience being companion dogs, the same as any pet dog. But also it's critical for how the adult dogs, especially the mothers, interact with & teach their puppies.

Our retired showdogs, now desexed pets, have come from backgrounds like that.... & are indeed the wonderful dogs you describe. I'd love to take credit for their socially confident, affectionate, & sensible behaviours. But I'm always confessing that they came like that, from the ethical registered breeders who raised them.

Yes mita this is correct and crucial for a dog's life outcome.

However the OP's assertion, that the dogs she read about that needed to be rehomed, and/or rehomed to multiple homes,

are in this situation because the dogs are not raised properly, is erroneous - by simple virtue that the OP does not know why these individual dogs are being rehomed, or why the seller preferred a single dog household. (Or how rescue/rehome sites select their listings)

There are many reasons why a seller may stipulate and prefer, a one dog household. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with a dog that needs to be the only dog in the family! A dog needing and being better off in a single dog household (or not being suitable for a home with children or with cats) does not equal a poorly socialised (sic) or inadequately bred and reared dog.

Edited January 11, 2012 by lilli

[espinay2]

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

They can tell a dogs external heath - glowing coat, good muscle tone and fitness, clear and bright eyes, happy in itself etc.

They can assess a dogs basic mental health - happy to be there, bright, aware, comfortable in what it is doing.

They can assess a dogs structural health - how it meets the structural standard for the breed, how the dogs structure supports or hinders its ability to do its job, how the dog moves, that it is happy and comfortable moving at a pace and in a style suitable for the breed.

They can NOT assess long term genetic or internal health or look into a crystal ball and see how the dog will be health-wise tomorrow or a year from now. But that is not the role of a dog show judge. A judge is there to judge TO THE STANDARD. The standard does not address health isses beyond the types of things I have listed above which can be assessed EXTERNALLY on the dog in front of the judge.

Any further assessment of health is carried out by the breeder, sometimes under the auspices of official and formal schemes run by the ANKC, breed club or other organisations and sometimes not.

Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog

[Crisovar]

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

They can tell a dogs external heath - glowing coat, good muscle tone and fitness, clear and bright eyes, happy in itself etc.

They can assess a dogs basic mental health - happy to be there, bright, aware, comfortable in what it is doing.

They can assess a dogs structural health - how it meets the structural standard for the breed, how the dogs structure supports or hinders its ability to do its job, how the dog moves, that it is happy and comfortable moving at a pace and in a style suitable for the breed.

They can NOT assess long term genetic or internal health or look into a crystal ball and see how the dog will be health-wise tomorrow or a year from now. But that is not the role of a dog show judge. A judge is there to judge TO THE STANDARD. The standard does not address health isses beyond the types of things I have listed above which can be assessed EXTERNALLY on the dog in front of the judge.

Any further assessment of health is carried out by the breeder, sometimes under the auspices of official and formal schemes run by the ANKC, breed club or other organisations and sometimes not.

Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog

:thumbsup:

[espinay2]

However the OP's assertion, that the dogs she read about that needed to be rehomed, and/or rehomed to multiple homes,

are in this situation because the dogs are not raised properly, is erroneous - by simple virtue that the OP does not know why these individual dogs are being rehomed, or why the seller preferred a single dog household. (Or how rescue/rehome sites select their listings)

There are many reasons why a seller may stipulate and prefer, a one dog household. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with a dog that needs to be the only dog in the family! A dog needing and being better off in a single dog household (or not being suitable for a home with children or with cats) does not equal a poorly socialised (sic) or inadequately bred and reared dog.

Agree with Lilli that there appears to be a long bow being drawn by the OP.

Being better suited to a home as an only dog (for what reason, there could be many?), not suitable for a home with children (again, there could be many reasons for this) or cats (If the dog has a reasonable prey drive as many breeds do, and has not been raised with cats - which many people don't own - then it makes sense to place this caveat) does not automatically equate to the breeder being irresponsible and inadequately socialising their dogs or breeding 'bad examples' of a breed (we don't know what the breed being referred to is so can't conjecture whether any of these things would be normal or cautionary for the breed and we don't know the individual dogs being referred to so don't know why the preferences have been made for those individual dogs.)

This is not to say that SOME of the dogs being listed may be poorly socialised. But cause and effect can not automatically be drawn between the two.

[asal]

how weird?

it double posted

Edited January 11, 2012 by asal

[asal]

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

They can tell a dogs external heath - glowing coat, good muscle tone and fitness, clear and bright eyes, happy in itself etc.

They can assess a dogs basic mental health - happy to be there, bright, aware, comfortable in what it is doing.

They can assess a dogs structural health - how it meets the structural standard for the breed, how the dogs structure supports or hinders its ability to do its job, how the dog moves, that it is happy and comfortable moving at a pace and in a style suitable for the breed.

They can NOT assess long term genetic or internal health or look into a crystal ball and see how the dog will be health-wise tomorrow or a year from now. But that is not the role of a dog show judge. A judge is there to judge TO THE STANDARD. The standard does not address health isses beyond the types of things I have listed above which can be assessed EXTERNALLY on the dog in front of the judge.

Any further assessment of health is carried out by the breeder, sometimes under the auspices of official and formal schemes run by the ANKC, breed club or other organisations and sometimes not.

Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog

:thumbsup:

"Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog"

I remember being told something along those lines once, when i queried how could a dog well actually two dogs become australian champions with three hernia's in another case again two dogs, was looking after them for friends on holiday and my 7 yr old visitor asked whats wrong with them. as i was going to the vet for one of mine i took the pair just to make sure they were ok, i had noticed they moved funny myself. grade 4 patella was the answer.

if a 7 yr old child could see something was not normal. i asked how could they win 100 challenge points?

to be told by a judge the above.

with the additional comment judges are not vets.

as for the hernias? where is making champions with these bettering any breed?

walked away shaking my head and still wondering

[Sheridan]

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

They can tell a dogs external heath - glowing coat, good muscle tone and fitness, clear and bright eyes, happy in itself etc.

They can assess a dogs basic mental health - happy to be there, bright, aware, comfortable in what it is doing.

They can assess a dogs structural health - how it meets the structural standard for the breed, how the dogs structure supports or hinders its ability to do its job, how the dog moves, that it is happy and comfortable moving at a pace and in a style suitable for the breed.

They can NOT assess long term genetic or internal health or look into a crystal ball and see how the dog will be health-wise tomorrow or a year from now. But that is not the role of a dog show judge. A judge is there to judge TO THE STANDARD. The standard does not address health isses beyond the types of things I have listed above which can be assessed EXTERNALLY on the dog in front of the judge.

Any further assessment of health is carried out by the breeder, sometimes under the auspices of official and formal schemes run by the ANKC, breed club or other organisations and sometimes not.

Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog

I haven't said so but such was inferred by Oakway in the original claim that a dog wouldn't win a BIS if it wasn't in good health.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Sheridan

[oakway]

[Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. ....

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

I totally agree with you, oakway. All our dogs in recent times have been retired showdogs from ethical registered breeders. Whose only aim was to place their retired dogs in good pet homes they've screened thoroughly.....and which are likely to 'stick'.

I've also noticed that, until just the right home comes along, they will not part with a dog.

You are right that dogs sourced like this can give new owners many hours of pleasure.

The critical thing, is how they've been raised by their breeders. DOLers, in previous posts, have described how puppies need to be socialised.....and also how all the parent dogs need that continually, too. It's not only a matter of welfare as the dogs need to experience being companion dogs, the same as any pet dog. But also it's critical for how the adult dogs, especially the mothers, interact with & teach their puppies.

Our retired showdogs, now desexed pets, have come from backgrounds like that.... & are indeed the wonderful dogs you describe. I'd love to take credit for their socially confident, affectionate, & sensible behaviours. But I'm always confessing that they came like that, from the ethical registered breeders who raised them.

Thank you Mita it is nice to know that we have people like you out there that appreciate all the efforts that go into making a top show dog and brood bitch. But untill I can find homes like yours mine are staying right here with me.

[espinay2]

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

They can tell a dogs external heath - glowing coat, good muscle tone and fitness, clear and bright eyes, happy in itself etc.

They can assess a dogs basic mental health - happy to be there, bright, aware, comfortable in what it is doing.

They can assess a dogs structural health - how it meets the structural standard for the breed, how the dogs structure supports or hinders its ability to do its job, how the dog moves, that it is happy and comfortable moving at a pace and in a style suitable for the breed.

They can NOT assess long term genetic or internal health or look into a crystal ball and see how the dog will be health-wise tomorrow or a year from now. But that is not the role of a dog show judge. A judge is there to judge TO THE STANDARD. The standard does not address health isses beyond the types of things I have listed above which can be assessed EXTERNALLY on the dog in front of the judge.

Any further assessment of health is carried out by the breeder, sometimes under the auspices of official and formal schemes run by the ANKC, breed club or other organisations and sometimes not.

Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog

:thumbsup:

"Assessment in accordance with the standard by a show judge is just part of it and never ever have dog shows set themselves up to be a one stop shop assessment of all elements of the 'health' of a dog"

I remember being told something along those lines once, when i queried how could a dog well actually two dogs become australian champions with three hernia's in another case again two dogs, was looking after them for friends on holiday and my 7 yr old visitor asked whats wrong with them. as i was going to the vet for one of mine i took the pair just to make sure they were ok, i had noticed they moved funny myself. grade 4 patella was the answer.

if a 7 yr old child could see something was not normal. i asked how could they win 100 challenge points?

to be told by a judge the above.

with the additional comment judges are not vets.

as for the hernias? where is making champions with these bettering any breed?

walked away shaking my head and still wondering

Some judges have a better eye and understanding of structure than others. But that is for a whole other thread - this thread is about breeders, not about dog shows.

Winning at a dog show does not automatically mean a breeder will breed that dog. Heck I have made the decision to desex and not breed a bitch with a champion title and I am far from the first and wont be the last to do that.

[mita]

[ the OP's assertion, that the dogs she read about that needed to be rehomed, and/or rehomed to multiple homes,

are in this situation because the dogs are not raised properly, is erroneous - by simple virtue that the OP does not know why these individual dogs are being rehomed, or why the seller preferred a single dog household. (Or how rescue/rehome sites select their listings)

There are many reasons why a seller may stipulate and prefer, a one dog household. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with a dog that needs to be the only dog in the family! A dog needing and being better off in a single dog household (or not being suitable for a home with children or with cats) does not equal a poorly socialised (sic) or inadequately bred and reared dog.

I agree that the devil is in the details of why those dogs were being rehomed. And those details were not given.

Agree with you, too, that there are many reasons why a seller might stipulate a single dog household. It's up to the seller to be up- front to any interested buyer, about what those reasons are.

Some reasons might be potentially quite benign, like the dog just prefers its own company, and it's a temperamental trait. Or a dog who sees all cats as something to chase.....or even a self-possessed natured dog that tends to get overwhelmed by the (natural) behaviours of children. Actually, the fact that a breeder/rescuer is able to describe a dog's homing needs in this way, indicates that they have observed it, in those situations. It also indicates an awareness of the necessity to place a dog in a situation appropriate for its nature.

Other reasons might need closer consideration, like a dog that is overly aggressive to other dogs or dogs that are snappy with adults, much less children. And may reflect an extreme temperamental trait and/or poor socialisation.

Poor socialisation statistically ups the chances of later aggression problems, but not invariably so. There can be other outcomes, like pronounced timidity.

But, with no details given in the OP case, it's impossible to draw any conclusions about what's happening there.

Edited January 12, 2012 by mita

[huck house]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

[OSoSwift]

Of course they can just like pets can have behavioural issues. NOt sure what the relevence is?

[huck house]

The OP was questioning why dogs that are used for showing or breeding need to be rehomed under specific conditions. Could it be that those dogs are no more or less likely than any other rescue needing new homes to require specific conditions?

Regarding whole dogs: as they reach maturity , or whilst still juveniles, do you think some breeders just find it easier to keep their dogs separate and dont continue the socialization process?

Thanks for considering my questions. I'm trying to wrap my head around the 2 dogs I have , both have been used for breeding. We are their the males 3rd and the females 4th home.

[Crisovar]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

They are still dogs right? Dogs are living animals and as such may have flaws, quirks, failings.

There are no perfect living things.

[jacqui835]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

Read through this article and I found it difficult to infer anything much from the data. No efforts are made to define "formal obedience training" - I have certainly seen plenty of people show up to 1-2 obedience sessions and then never come back and in my mind at least this is quite different from the people like myself who engage in formal training twice every week.

I also am not sure of relevance and validity because I think the greater issue here would be dogs not having contact with the outside world and reduced interactions with their owners. I certainly take my dog with me on errands and feel that this has actually been a part of the socialization process. I think in this instance people are worried that these ex show dogs have not accompanied their owners anywhere beyond the show ring - hence the phenomen of "seeing the world for the first time" when rehomed.

[oakway]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

Read through this article and I found it difficult to infer anything much from the data. No efforts are made to define "formal obedience training" - I have certainly seen plenty of people show up to 1-2 obedience sessions and then never come back and in my mind at least this is quite different from the people like myself who engage in formal training twice every week.

I also am not sure of relevance and validity because I think the greater issue here would be dogs not having contact with the outside world and reduced interactions with their owners. I certainly take my dog with me on errands and feel that this has actually been a part of the socialization process. I think in this instance people are worried that these ex show dogs have not accompanied their owners anywhere beyond the show ring - hence the phenomen of "seeing the world for the first time" when rehomed.

I would like to reply to you.

About show dogs seeing the world for the first time as it may give many of you an insight to the way many of our Show Dogs lead their lives.

Soon after the puppies are born we as breeders are looking for that RIGHT puppy to keep for ourselves and show.

Many people may handle the pup as many other breeders may be invited to stack and give their opinion on the puppy. This will mean many people will be handling the pup. This selected pup will then be shown. This pup may possibly taken to show training where it will be handled by others and also get use to other dogs.

Then off to the show where the dog will be crated or kept in a trolley or X pen. When it is called for its class it will be in an assembly are with other handlers and other dog's. It's number may be called by an assembly steward then passed onto the ring steward then passed onto being examined by the judge. If the pup is lucky and wins it may be sometimes passed onto another judge who may do the Group specials and if this pups wins at group level it will be passed onto the judge for Show specials. This pup has had all this exposure to all these people and don't forget this pup may be entered for a show the next day, so the process starts all over again.

When the show season is in full swing we may get clusters of shows that last for days some over 10 days and don't forget many of these shows consist of Agricultural Show and we the dog people can often get stuck near side show ally. Just imagine all the show patrons and sights the dogs are exposed to.

If you live on the Eastern seaboard may even travel you dogs to the major Royal shows, just think of the exposure the dogs get there plus the travelling weather it be in the car, the trailer or by air and don't forget the ship if you are travelling to Tasmania to do the shows there. Our show dog’s are usually very well socialised dogs. I am stating to wonder if we the reader's and posters are talking about two totally different aspects of re homing. The genuine breeder rehoming or a BYB dumping one they don't want. Their is a big difference as I would want mine to go to a very loving and caring home and may put restriction as to where that dog may go. Until "I" find the right home they stay with me. :)

Edited January 13, 2012 by oakway

[Keshwar]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

Read through this article and I found it difficult to infer anything much from the data. No efforts are made to define "formal obedience training" - I have certainly seen plenty of people show up to 1-2 obedience sessions and then never come back and in my mind at least this is quite different from the people like myself who engage in formal training twice every week.

I also am not sure of relevance and validity because I think the greater issue here would be dogs not having contact with the outside world and reduced interactions with their owners. I certainly take my dog with me on errands and feel that this has actually been a part of the socialization process. I think in this instance people are worried that these ex show dogs have not accompanied their owners anywhere beyond the show ring - hence the phenomen of "seeing the world for the first time" when rehomed.

I would like to reply to you.

About show dogs seeing the world for the first time as it may give many of you an insight to the way many of our Show Dogs lead their lives.

Soon after the puppies are born we as breeders are looking for that RIGHT puppy to keep for ourselves and show.

Many people may handle the pup as many other breeders may be invited to stack and give their opinion on the puppy. This will mean many people will be handling the pup. This selected pup will then be shown. This pup may possibly taken to show training where it will be handled by others and also get use to other dogs.

Then off to the show where the dog will be crated or kept in a trolley or X pen. When it is called for its class it will be in an assembly are with other handlers and other dog's. It's number may be called by an assembly steward then passed onto the ring steward then passed onto being examined by the judge. If the pup is lucky and wins it may be sometimes passed onto another judge who may do the Group specials and if this pups wins at group level it will be passed onto the judge for Show specials. This pup has had all this exposure to all these people and don't forget this pup may be entered for a show the next day, so the process starts all over again.

When the show season is in full swing we may get clusters of shows that last for days some over 10 days and don't forget many of these shows consist of Agricultural Show and we the dog people can often get stuck near side show ally. Just imagine all the show patrons and sights the dogs are exposed to.

If you live on the Eastern seaboard may even travel you dogs to the major Royal shows, just think of the exposure the dogs get there plus the travelling weather it be in the car, the trailer or by air and don't forget the ship if you are travelling to Tasmania to do the shows there. Our show dog’s are usually very well socialised dogs. I am stating to wonder if we the reader's and posters are talking about two totally different aspects of re homing. The genuine breeder rehoming or a BYB dumping one they don't want. Their is a big difference as I would want mine to go to a very loving and caring home and may put restriction as to where that dog may go. Until "I" find the right home they stay with me. :)

:clap:

To me it seems that a lot of non-show people have very little idea of the lives of most show dogs.

My dogs are show dogs for 2-3 days a week, the rest of the time they are pets. They do things that most dogs do with their humans. Plus all of the above which most family pets aren't exposed too.

[asal]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

They are still dogs right? Dogs are living animals and as such may have flaws, quirks, failings.

There are no perfect living things.

maybe im getting it wrong, but seems the infernece is registered breeders are supposed to have perfect ones? with no realisation that all animals have their own personality regardless of who bred them or raised them .

well remember a litter of 9 and one black and tan girl steadfastly stayed in the bed they were raised refusing to leave even to try food as they grew older. she was a loner no matter how much attention was paid to her, then at 2 years after her owner had began to despair all she ever wanted to do was watch the world go by, began to interact with the other dogs and the family. by 3 she was happlily part of the group. but as a puppy, she was a worry.

[Crisovar]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

They are still dogs right? Dogs are living animals and as such may have flaws, quirks, failings.

There are no perfect living things.

maybe im getting it wrong, but seems the infernece is registered breeders are supposed to have perfect ones? with no realisation that all animals have their own personality regardless of who bred them or raised them .

well remember a litter of 9 and one black and tan girl steadfastly stayed in the bed they were raised refusing to leave even to try food as they grew older. she was a loner no matter how much attention was paid to her, then at 2 years after her owner had began to despair all she ever wanted to do was watch the world go by, began to interact with the other dogs and the family. by 3 she was happlily part of the group. but as a puppy, she was a worry.

That is my understanding too

Sadly when you are dealing with living breathing creatures it just doesn't happen.

[jacqui835]

http://www.mercer.edu/psychology/Faculty_Staff/Wright_JC/downloadable_articles/Is%20There%20a%20Relationship%20Between%20Canine%20Behavior.pdf

I'm not sure if anyone will find this relevant , but this article is making the point that even obedience trained, show dogs can have behavioural issues/ problems.

Read through this article and I found it difficult to infer anything much from the data. No efforts are made to define "formal obedience training" - I have certainly seen plenty of people show up to 1-2 obedience sessions and then never come back and in my mind at least this is quite different from the people like myself who engage in formal training twice every week.

I also am not sure of relevance and validity because I think the greater issue here would be dogs not having contact with the outside world and reduced interactions with their owners. I certainly take my dog with me on errands and feel that this has actually been a part of the socialization process. I think in this instance people are worried that these ex show dogs have not accompanied their owners anywhere beyond the show ring - hence the phenomen of "seeing the world for the first time" when rehomed.

I would like to reply to you.

About show dogs seeing the world for the first time as it may give many of you an insight to the way many of our Show Dogs lead their lives.

Soon after the puppies are born we as breeders are looking for that RIGHT puppy to keep for ourselves and show.

Many people may handle the pup as many other breeders may be invited to stack and give their opinion on the puppy. This will mean many people will be handling the pup. This selected pup will then be shown. This pup may possibly taken to show training where it will be handled by others and also get use to other dogs.

Then off to the show where the dog will be crated or kept in a trolley or X pen. When it is called for its class it will be in an assembly are with other handlers and other dog's. It's number may be called by an assembly steward then passed onto the ring steward then passed onto being examined by the judge. If the pup is lucky and wins it may be sometimes passed onto another judge who may do the Group specials and if this pups wins at group level it will be passed onto the judge for Show specials. This pup has had all this exposure to all these people and don't forget this pup may be entered for a show the next day, so the process starts all over again.

When the show season is in full swing we may get clusters of shows that last for days some over 10 days and don't forget many of these shows consist of Agricultural Show and we the dog people can often get stuck near side show ally. Just imagine all the show patrons and sights the dogs are exposed to.

If you live on the Eastern seaboard may even travel you dogs to the major Royal shows, just think of the exposure the dogs get there plus the travelling weather it be in the car, the trailer or by air and don't forget the ship if you are travelling to Tasmania to do the shows there. Our show dog’s are usually very well socialised dogs. I am stating to wonder if we the reader's and posters are talking about two totally different aspects of re homing. The genuine breeder rehoming or a BYB dumping one they don't want. Their is a big difference as I would want mine to go to a very loving and caring home and may put restriction as to where that dog may go. Until "I" find the right home they stay with me. :)

:clap:

To me it seems that a lot of non-show people have very little idea of the lives of most show dogs.

My dogs are show dogs for 2-3 days a week, the rest of the time they are pets. They do things that most dogs do with their humans. Plus all of the above which most family pets aren't exposed too.

I would never try and argue that every breeder is the same, that would be impossible. I am only saying I know what the OP is talking about, registered breeders are not all the same and I personally met dogs that had show titles who had known health problems but used for breeding and weren't socialized. I've also since met breeders who would never think of doing this. They're all out there and being registered and having show titles is no guarantee that healthy, well socialized dogs will be provided. That's just the system as it currently stands.