Breeding To Better

[Sheridan]

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test.

A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Sheridan

[hilaryo]

I think the issue here is more about breeders having large numbers of dogs, running a few on, but not socialising them, then rehoming them.

And i don't think its just byb that do this, in fact its probably less likely to be them.

Of course your "average" BYB doesn't rehome frequently. They sell the whole litter!!! Only keeping a replacement breeding dog or bitch when required.

[Greytmate]

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me.

The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that.

I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so.

[Guest lavendergirl]

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me.

The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that.

I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so.

Yes but how realistic is it to expect that large numbers of dogs in kennels are socialised enough to be suitable to live in a household when they have spent the first 5 years or so of their lives in a kennel environment? Is this even possible without many trained and dedicated staff on hand, which I doubt these breeders have? (genuine question - not "breeder bashing" )

[Crisovar]

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me.

The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that.

I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so.

Yes but how realistic is it to expect that large numbers of dogs in kennels are socialised enough to be suitable to live in a household when they have spent the first 5 years or so of their lives in a kennel environment? Is this even possible without many trained and dedicated staff on hand, which I doubt these breeders have? (genuine question - not "breeder bashing" )

Of course it is, dogs can be rotated between house and kennels, go to shows, go to training, even Breeders have family & friends who visit, interact with dogs etc

Busy large kennels often have activity all day, as opposed to a single dog in a backyard with working owners, you may be surprised how much time is actually spent doing activities with and around the dogs. Simple daily routines like cleaning runs etc which have to be done equal interaction.

[oakway]

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test.

A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost.

How many times do I have to say we are not mind readers and we don't have a magic wand. It takes time to eradicate problems that appear. If I was interested in a breed that had problems I would seek out a breeder that was well on the way to eradicating the problem or wait till the problem was solved. I would certainly not purchase a breed with a known problem unless some guarantees were in place. Or better still I would Import from a kennel that had already solved the problem.

[Greytmate]

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me.

The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that.

I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so.

Yes but how realistic is it to expect that large numbers of dogs in kennels are socialised enough to be suitable to live in a household when they have spent the first 5 years or so of their lives in a kennel environment? Is this even possible without many trained and dedicated staff on hand, which I doubt these breeders have? (genuine question - not "breeder bashing" )

I think it is very possible.

Between the ages of 5 weeks and 16 weeks the dog needs to be exposed to a lot of different things to get it used to other breeds, other animals, kids, vehicles, vets, hats, old people, strangers etc. Whatever is appropriate for the dog's future life.

All of their lives they should be handled pleasantly on a daily basis.

Dogs in kennels need to be let out for work, sport or exercise daily (or as appropriate). And should be given toys, bones and things to do in its kennel.

By doing this, unless a dog has an inherent temperament fault, it can happily make the change from kennel dog to house pet.. It will want to be a pet. It will be a good pet. I've seen it happen hundreds and hundreds of times.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Greytmate

[oakway]

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me.

The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that.

I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so.

Yes but how realistic is it to expect that large numbers of dogs in kennels are socialised enough to be suitable to live in a household when they have spent the first 5 years or so of their lives in a kennel environment? Is this even possible without many trained and dedicated staff on hand, which I doubt these breeders have? (genuine question - not "breeder bashing" )

Of course it is, dogs can be rotated between house and kennels, go to shows, go to training, even Breeders have family & friends who visit, interact with dogs etc

Busy large kennels often have activity all day, as opposed to a single dog in a backyard with working owners, you may be surprised how much time is actually spent doing activities with and around the dogs. Simple daily routines like cleaning runs etc which have to be done equal interaction.

Edited January 11, 2012 by oakway

[oakway]

My screen disappeared while trying to reply to the above.

Which I whole heartedly concur with.

[**Super_Dogs**]

[Also agree it is a good point. I would not have thought it would be such as issue with ex-show dogs as there have to be socialised to be in the show environment with so many other dogs and people.

I would suggest it would me more an an issue with ex-breeding dogs that have not ever been in shows or any dog sport competitions.

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

I think you have misunderstood what I was saying - I was not breeder bashing (I am a breeder). You have confirmed the point I was making that good breeders socialise their dogs.

I agree with Greymate - Breeding for Better goes beyond the health of the dog, it is the socialisation and life of the dogs at the breeders kennel.

Edited January 11, 2012 by buddy1

[Sheridan]

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test.

A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost.

How many times do I have to say we are not mind readers and we don't have a magic wand. It takes time to eradicate problems that appear. If I was interested in a breed that had problems I would seek out a breeder that was well on the way to eradicating the problem or wait till the problem was solved. I would certainly not purchase a breed with a known problem unless some guarantees were in place. Or better still I would Import from a kennel that had already solved the problem.

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

[OSoSwift]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

I have had entire dogs of a couple of different breeds and it makes no difference to how tricky it is to socilaise them. My Dobes were Dobes plain and simple. They were very well socialised and easy to take anywhere. HOwever if a dog - or any breed got in their face they would not start the fight but they may finish it. I would never run two Dobe bitches together when I was not around. They are Dobes, they are dominant and if they decide to have a barney it would be a serious one - as it was when my two decided to have a rumble one desexed, one entire.

It did not make them bad or undersocialised dogs it made them Dobes.

I would expect to be able to run multiple WHippets togetehr more easily, however every now and again you get the odd one of those that can push the envelope that would not be able to be run togther without supervision.

[german_shep_fan]

I agree! But what also makes me really angry is the way the breeders you have mentioned ( i am in no way aiming this at all breeders as it does not apply) just want to offload their dogs once they are finished with them! They claim they want to better the breed ect ect but what about loving them and keeping them on as family pets after their show career is finished? Do they not care for these animals at all or is it all abt winning the show??? I understand that breeders sometimes cannot keep all the show dogs they raise ect, but to offload them to you completely unsocialised! What chance do they think the poor things have at finding a new home

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs???

I didn't mean only with other dogs, when you look through many adult listings for breeds on dol many state they are either no good with little kids, cats, can't be left at home all day, can only be in a one dog household ect. When they are older their chances of finding the right home may already be slightly less (not always but sometimes) then pups whose slate is clean with their prime socialisation period to learn to accept these things being as soon as they are taken home.

[Guest lavendergirl]

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.

This thread highlights a very important distinction for me.

The ethical breeders that handle, socialise and enrich the lives of the kennel dogs that they will one day place as pets, and the other ones that don't do any of that.

I don't think we can define a puppy farmer by the number of dogs they keep or the fact the dogs are kennelled. Good, ethical breeders can also have large kennels full of dogs. The difference to me is whether the socialisation, handling and enrichment has been provided. Because providing those things is not profitable for puppy farmers to do. Ethical breeders will do it, because it is in the interest of the dog and the breed to do so.

Yes but how realistic is it to expect that large numbers of dogs in kennels are socialised enough to be suitable to live in a household when they have spent the first 5 years or so of their lives in a kennel environment? Is this even possible without many trained and dedicated staff on hand, which I doubt these breeders have? (genuine question - not "breeder bashing" )

I think it is very possible.

Between the ages of 5 weeks and 16 weeks the dog needs to be exposed to a lot of different things to get it used to other breeds, other animals, kids, vehicles, vets, hats, old people, strangers etc. Whatever is appropriate for the dog's future life.

All of their lives they should be handled pleasantly on a daily basis.

Dogs in kennels need to be let out for work, sport or exercise daily (or as appropriate). And should be given toys, bones and things to do in its kennel.

By doing this, unless a dog has an inherent temperament fault, it can happily make the change from kennel dog to house pet.. It will want to be a pet. It will be a good pet. I've seen it happen hundreds and hundreds of times.

Thank you. This is the sort of information that people reading this thread can take away with them and keep in mind when researching purchase of a mature aged dog. By having this discussion people will know the type of questions to be asked of breeders seeking to re-home older dogs.

[oakway]

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test.

A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost.

How many times do I have to say we are not mind readers and we don't have a magic wand. It takes time to eradicate problems that appear. If I was interested in a breed that had problems I would seek out a breeder that was well on the way to eradicating the problem or wait till the problem was solved. I would certainly not purchase a breed with a known problem unless some guarantees were in place. Or better still I would Import from a kennel that had already solved the problem.

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

My god how many times does a person have to tell you that we are not mind readers or dog health readers.

On the day the dog would have to be healthy to win. What happens after that is in the lap of the gods.

And I did answer the question.

I did mention how would a vet know unless the dog was sick???. How would a vet know the breed standards to evaluate the dogs. How would a vet know a dog was sick unless you took the animal in to see them. We have vets that are capable of judging Best In Show and do you believe that they are going bring out their thermometer and stethoscope to check the dog first.

I'll bet their are plenty of Best in show winners that got old and sick just like us but when awarded they may have been in the prime of life.

[Sheridan]

My god how many times does a person have to tell you that we are not mind readers or dog health readers.

On the day the dog would have to be healthy to win. What happens after that is in the lap of the gods.

And I did answer the question.

I did mention how would a vet know unless the dog was sick???. How would a vet know the breed standards to evaluate the dogs. How would a vet know a dog was sick unless you took the animal in to see them. We have vets that are capable of judging Best In Show and do you believe that they are going bring out their thermometer and stethoscope to check the dog first.

I'll bet their are plenty of Best in show winners that got old and sick just like us but when awarded they may have been in the prime of life.

The dog would not have to be healthy to win because a judge doesn't judge its health. And the reason for that is because a judge cannot tell beyond what a dog looks like.

A dog can be in the 'prime of its life' and be really, really sick and not show a damned thing. It doesn't have to be old, Oakway.

[Gayle.]

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Your original post did not qualify the age of the dog. I responded to your original post simply to point out that not everything is on show in a ring. There are diseases that a judge will never see. All a judge sees is the dog in front of them. A judge does not see hip and elbow scores or blood and urine test results and even if they did see the latter two, some tests only show the result of the day of the test.

A judge cannot tell if a dog is a genetic timebomb of heritable disease and I used kidney disease as a deliberate example. How does a judge tell if a dog has kidney disease if no symptoms show? A double grand champion can have kidney disease and never show it until most of the kidney function is lost.

How many times do I have to say we are not mind readers and we don't have a magic wand. It takes time to eradicate problems that appear. If I was interested in a breed that had problems I would seek out a breeder that was well on the way to eradicating the problem or wait till the problem was solved. I would certainly not purchase a breed with a known problem unless some guarantees were in place. Or better still I would Import from a kennel that had already solved the problem.

Well, that's an answer to someone's post but it's not a response to mine. My original post upthread was about how a judge can tell the health of a dog in the show ring because of your positing that a dog wouldn't be be winning BIS unless it had good health.

My god how many times does a person have to tell you that we are not mind readers or dog health readers.

On the day the dog would have to be healthy to win. What happens after that is in the lap of the gods.

And I did answer the question.

I did mention how would a vet know unless the dog was sick???. How would a vet know the breed standards to evaluate the dogs. How would a vet know a dog was sick unless you took the animal in to see them. We have vets that are capable of judging Best In Show and do you believe that they are going bring out their thermometer and stethoscope to check the dog first.

I'll bet their are plenty of Best in show winners that got old and sick just like us but when awarded they may have been in the prime of life.

A judge wouldn't know, but a breeder or owner might. They might campaign the dog to best in show even though it has hip scores too high to consider breeding from, or test affected for a heritable disease but not showing symptoms. Best in show, or any dog show award doesn't guarantee the recipient is healthy before, at the time of, or after the award.

[mita]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

The critical socialisation phase is between 5 weeks and 16 weeks of age. So all dogs are sexually entire and immature during socialisation.

Handling should happen at all ages, kennel enrichment should happen at all ages.

Yes, there has been a link made between puppy behaviour and extent of socialisation of the mother dog. Not surprising, as the puppy learns behaviour from the responses/actions of the mother dog.

So it's just as critical for dogs of all ages, especially mother dogs, in any 'kennel' environment, to continually be well socialised. Interestingly, that can be one good by-product of taking dogs to shows. Mixing with strangers (even the judge's touch is that of a stranger)...and being around other dogs. Though, of course, that's not the only means of socialising the dogs.

Edited January 11, 2012 by mita

[BJean]

Just wanted to add. I don't think this topic is a criticism of the breeders that do put in the work their dogs require. Many breeders here are excellent.

But there are some that don't do the right thing, and this is alarming.

Nor do I.

What I have issue with is the huge gaps of cause and effect in the OPs claim

that they have been 'overwhelmed' with the numbers of dogs from breeders,

that need to be rehomed into one dog households, because the dogs are not socialised properly.

And this is further evidenced by 25% of rehomed dogs having to be rehomed again.

Come on.

My criticism of the OP

has nothing to do with me breeding ASD or CAS -

but everything to do with the OP not considering breed traits of the dogs being advertised, AND

that if any rehomed dog has to be 'relisted', it's because the dog was not bred correctly or socialised -

and nothing to do with the actual mismatch of dog and home.

It is a ridiculous argument.

Well you clearly have a bee in your bonnet about something, but you’re over analysing my post with assumptions.

I made a brief post about something I have noticed. I didn’t bother listing every ad word for word just gave a brief idea of what was being listed. If I had listed them all word for word it would have taken up pages in the original post.

I was unaware that all posts/topics on a forum had to be an argument.

I’ve not said “that if any rehomed dog has to be 'relisted', it's because the dog was not bred correctly or socialised”. I’ve just said they were relisted due to not working out.at the new homes.

You said:

Isn't one of the most common reasons people breed to better the breed? well one that people will tell you.

I am a member of a few breed specific rescue pages on facebook most just in my area (well with in 100kms). and over the last few months i've been overwhelmed with the number of dogs that need re-homing 85-90% which are either 12mth old ex show dogs or older bitches from show homes. but neally all of them can not be re-homed with other dogs. most tell the same story. no longer being shown so needs a new home but not social with dogs, other animals or children. often living in a run etc. and abot 25% or more are finding them selfs re-listed due to not working out at the new homes.

If we choose to breed to better the breed shouldn't we be making sure that our dogs are socialised so that they have the best chance of finding suitable good homes along with type, temp and health etc.

This really has nothing to do with which breeds! At the end of the day I was referring to dogs being listed on a RESUCE group page that’s state in the ad that they are coming from either breeders or are ex show dogs or have been in the show ring or even ex breeding bitches. I’m not making it up. What would the point of that be!

Once again: this is to do with you saying the cause of these dogs requiring single dog households and the cause of dogs needing to be rehomed multiple times, is the result of inadequate socialisation, the result of breeders not breeding for the betterment of the breed.

When reading where they are coming from I assumed (clearly my mistake) that they would be to some point trained, socialised with other dogs (given that there would be other dogs both at shows and within the current home they are in). Some of the ads I have seen have said that the dog has only lived solo/alone in a run/pen or has never lived with other dogs or socialised with other dogs.

Personally I have seen many older Bull Terriers chance homes (either with friends, family or associates) and adjusted to living with new dogs, or other animals or even children. I know that personalities also play a part but the dogs I was referring to don’t seem to have been given the chance to get on in the first place because the posts state they have always lived alone.

So ... you're 'overwhelemed' by the number of dogs that have only lived as the only dog, and when these dogs need to be rehomed they require to be the only dog in the house??? You think a dog needs to be the only dog in the household because it is not trained / socialised properly?

The original post was not and is not referring to just Bull Terriers.

which few breed are you overwhelmed by the number of needing to go to single dog households and rehomed multiple times due to lack of socialization?

My understanding of the word RESCUE is something that needed saving. When I hear someone rescuing a dog I imagine that the dog is in need of saving, maybe it’s in poor health, being abused or impounded and at risk of being PTS. I don’t think of the type I have seen listed.

I only see more harm than good for the reputation of a breed (which could be any breed for that matter) in the case of the dogs I’m referring too. What message does it send to prospective breed enthusiast about the breed if even after the dog has had showing etc. or raised in a breeding kennel situation has to be listed on a RESCUE site to be rehomed.

Maybe it would help your state of being overwhelmed, if you stopped drawing erroneous conclusions and attributing emotive imgainary story lines, to why ex show dogs are being advertised on a 'RESCUE' site, and instead contact the site administrator to ask them how/why their advertisements are edited and selected.

[mita]

[Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. ....

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

I totally agree with you, oakway. All our dogs in recent times have been retired showdogs from ethical registered breeders. Whose only aim was to place their retired dogs in good pet homes they've screened thoroughly.....and which are likely to 'stick'.

I've also noticed that, until just the right home comes along, they will not part with a dog.

You are right that dogs sourced like this can give new owners many hours of pleasure.

The critical thing, is how they've been raised by their breeders. DOLers, in previous posts, have described how puppies need to be socialised.....and also how all the parent dogs need that continually, too. It's not only a matter of welfare as the dogs need to experience being companion dogs, the same as any pet dog. But also it's critical for how the adult dogs, especially the mothers, interact with & teach their puppies.

Our retired showdogs, now desexed pets, have come from backgrounds like that.... & are indeed the wonderful dogs you describe. I'd love to take credit for their socially confident, affectionate, & sensible behaviours. But I'm always confessing that they came like that, from the ethical registered breeders who raised them.

Edited January 11, 2012 by mita