Breeding To Better

[juice]

The majority of my breed i see advertised as mature dogs have to go to one dog households, not fiction, fact.

Edited January 10, 2012 by juice

[BJean]

Well I’m sorry if I offended anyone by pointing out what I believed to be a concern to myself.

Nowhere have I ever stated these are facts or exact figures. As I do believe I have used the terms “about, almost, nearly etc.” none of which I believe would be used in a document that I was stating to be 100% correct in figures.I'm also not referring to one group, breed or one ad but a number of them.

What is offensive is that from reading a small post that you could claim to have any idea of me, my knowledge or experience. Other than I have stated that I said I’m not a breeder and I don’t run a rescue group or the site.

Let’s not ASSUME I have little knowledge of dog breeding etc. what is clear is that from one of your first replies, you had already miss read my original post.

I can assure you, I do understand how dog breeding works though I may be learning about the registration side and terms etc. used within a registered breeder social group and do not claim to know everything, but I have a high understanding of the reproductive system right down to the hormones, complications etc. (which I assume has something to do with breeding!)And I may have said that I'm not a breeder but I never said that in my life time I've never seen a litter born or raised a litter.

And although my experience with showing is mostly horse related I assume the principle would be the same.

I originally left it as breed specific groups because I didn’t want to make this about Bull terriers cause although some of the groups I was referring to are bully groups not all are. Just because I have a bully as my profile pic doesn’t mean they are the only breed I have an interest in. I don’t feel the need to list them all as it’s not about pointing the finger at a specific breed.

I may have forgot to add all the particulars in my original post etc. next time I will endeavour to include all facts and to state where I’ve made an assumption and get my point across more clearly, something I struggle with after having a stroke. Or maybe just one of the disadvantages of posting on a forum and not talking in person.

I'm not claiming to believe that dogs are the same as horses but the principles of breeding, showing and/or re homing are much the same.

Again sorry

isn't one of the most common reasons people breed to better the breed? well one that people will tell you.

I am a member of a few breed specific rescue pages on facebook most just in my area (well with in 100kms). and over the last few months i've been overwhelmed with the number of dogs that need re-homing 85-90% which are either 12mth old ex show dogs or older bitches from show homes. but neally all of them can not be re-homed with other dogs. most tell the same story. no longer being shown so needs a new home but not social with dogs, other animals or children. often living in a run etc. and abot 25% or more are finding them selfs re-listed due to not working out at the new homes.

If we choose to breed to better the breed shouldn't we be making sure that our dogs are socialised so that they have the best chance of finding suitable good homes along with type, temp and health etc.

You are attributing dogs needing to be rehomed into a one dog household

and dogs being relisted,

as the result of inadequate socialisation

and breeders not breeding to better the breed.

Edited January 10, 2012 by lilli

[BJean]

The majority of my breed i see advertised as mature dogs have to go to one dog households, not fiction, fact.

What do you think this indicates?

[BJean]

The majority of my breed i see advertised as mature dogs have to go to one dog households, not fiction, fact.

Following your initial instruction to read the DOL Bull Terrier Mature Dog List:

I find:

Although he is great with other dogs, we prefer he go to single dog home only.....

He is looking for a home where he is the only dog. Will be desexed upon leaving and is all up to date with vaccinations and is also microchipped. Would prefer someone that has owned a Bull Terrier in the past and your yard will need to be fully fenced and secure.

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/mature/bull-terrier.asp

How do these mature dog advertisements support the OP's theory that socialisation is lacking and breeders are not breeding for betterment for the breed?

Edited January 10, 2012 by lilli

[BJean]

Just wanted to add. I don't think this topic is a criticism of the breeders that do put in the work their dogs require. Many breeders here are excellent.

But there are some that don't do the right thing, and this is alarming.

Nor do I.

What I have issue with is the huge gaps of cause and effect in the OPs claim

that they have been 'overwhelmed' with the numbers of dogs from breeders,

that need to be rehomed into one dog households, because the dogs are not socialised properly.

And this is further evidenced by 25% of rehomed dogs having to be rehomed again.

Come on.

My criticism of the OP

has nothing to do with me breeding ASD or CAS -

but everything to do with the OP not considering breed traits of the dogs being advertised, AND

that if any rehomed dog has to be 'relisted', it's because the dog was not bred correctly or socialised -

and nothing to do with the actual mismatch of dog and home.

It is a ridiculous argument.

Edited January 10, 2012 by lilli

[Sheridan]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

I'm curious to know how a judge is able to, for example, tell how healthy a dog in early stage renal failure is given a dog in this condition lose around 80% of its kidney function before any symptoms show. Looking forward to your answer.

[SwaY]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

I'm curious to know how a judge is able to, for example, tell how healthy a dog in early stage renal failure is given a dog in this condition lose around 80% of its kidney function before any symptoms show. Looking forward to your answer.

The same way a vet would I imagine, they could not unless other symptoms presented.

[Janba]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog.

[DAVERI]

Just wanted to add. I don't think this topic is a criticism of the breeders that do put in the work their dogs require. Many breeders here are excellent.

But there are some that don't do the right thing, and this is alarming.

Nor do I.

What I have issue with is the huge gaps of cause and effect in the OPs claim

that they have been 'overwhelmed' with the numbers of dogs from breeders,

that need to be rehomed into one dog households, because the dogs are not socialised properly.

And this is further evidenced by 25% of rehomed dogs having to be rehomed again.

Come on.

My criticism of the OP

has nothing to do with me breeding ASD or CAS -

but everything to do with the OP not considering breed traits of the dogs being advertised, AND

that if any rehomed dog has to be 'relisted', it's because the dog was not bred correctly or socialised -

and nothing to do with the actual mismatch of dog and home.

It is a ridiculous argument.

Well you clearly have a bee in your bonnet about something, but you’re over analysing my post with assumptions.

I made a brief post about something I have noticed. I didn’t bother listing every ad word for word just gave a brief idea of what was being listed. If I had listed them all word for word it would have taken up pages in the original post.

I was unaware that all posts/topics on a forum had to be an argument.

I’ve not said “that if any rehomed dog has to be 'relisted', it's because the dog was not bred correctly or socialised”. I’ve just said they were relisted due to not working out.at the new homes.

This really has nothing to do with which breeds! At the end of the day I was referring to dogs being listed on a RESUCE group page that’s state in the ad that they are coming from either breeders or are ex show dogs or have been in the show ring or even ex breeding bitches. I’m not making it up. What would the point of that be!

When reading where they are coming from I assumed (clearly my mistake) that they would be to some point trained, socialised with other dogs (given that there would be other dogs both at shows and within the current home they are in). Some of the ads I have seen have said that the dog has only lived solo/alone in a run/pen or has never lived with other dogs or socialised with other dogs.

Personally I have seen many older Bull Terriers chance homes (either with friends, family or associates) and adjusted to living with new dogs, or other animals or even children. I know that personalities also play a part but the dogs I was referring to don’t seem to have been given the chance to get on in the first place because the posts state they have always lived alone.

The original post was not and is not referring to just Bull Terriers.

My understanding of the word RESCUE is something that needed saving. When I hear someone rescuing a dog I imagine that the dog is in need of saving, maybe it’s in poor health, being abused or impounded and at risk of being PTS. I don’t think of the type I have seen listed.

I only see more harm than good for the reputation of a breed (which could be any breed for that matter) in the case of the dogs I’m referring too. What message does it send to prospective breed enthusiast about the breed if even after the dog has had showing etc. or raised in a breeding kennel situation has to be listed on a RESCUE site to be rehomed.

But I’m sure you will find something else to criticize me personally about because you’ve taken the post in the wrong way and read into it with things I haven’t said. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I feel here if I’d said the sky was blue it wouldn’t be. If you think the topic is ridiculous than don’t bother reading it! There’s no need to make out I’m some sort of idiot!

[oakway]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog.

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

[german_shep_fan]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

If only it was so, I've seen BIG dogs with the most unstable, insecure temperaments which are so not within breed standard. A perfect top line goes further in the ring than a temperament within breed standard.

Half the dogs in my breed out there showing wouldn't know how to work stock, or be functioning workers on a farm. I'm so passionate about people going on about breed standard, when the actual functioning ability of the dog is never tested. Why on earth there ever had to be a split in some breeds on different lines amazes me, and I have to wonder who actually drove the split? The showring breeders, or the working dog breeders, and the motives behind it. For looks perhaps?

I have to agree that most (not all) of what is BEST about a dog will never be seen in a Show Ring.

Sometimes I think "titles" should be certified by a Vet (or three) before being granted. But that is another thread.

I would be highly doubtful that many vets would know the breed standards sufficiently well enough to be able judge the quality of the animal, other than the those vets that are judges. I fail to see how taking a dog to the vet should sanction it's title. Be it Champion, Grand Champion or Supreme Champion.

To gain any of those titles to me, it takes a healthy, happy well adjusted animal.

Remember many of these dogs that you believe to inadequate in conformation and temperament are dogs that can travel to other countries and become Champions in that country, only to and come back to Australia the same happy healthy well adjusted dogs that left these shores.

If some you are not seeing this in the dogs you purchase may I strongly suggest that you MAY not be contacting the right breeders.

Trouble is many of the breed clubs recommend these breeders as they are the breeders whose dogs are winning shows. I for one got out of my club as i was so appalled at what was being placed on a pedestal and what was being excluded for want of a better word. People who want purebreds are often told to contact the breed club in their state ect and have good faith they will be buying a sound healthy puppy. I am friends with one such person who was recommended a pup from a very reputable breeder according to club, and has had nothing but trouble with said puppy and even copped abuse by strangers for starving this dog ect she looked so poorly.

Edited January 10, 2012 by german_shep_fan

[huck house]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

[Guest lavendergirl]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog.

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Well honestly that would say a lot more about the breeder than about people like the OP wouldn't it? I suspect many of the large scale breeding establishments may do this anyway. I think this thread has raised a valid point in questioning how well ex show and breeding dogs who have been largely raised in kennels will fit into a home environment. As someone who was looking at acquiring an older dog it was not something I had really considered and I appreciate this point being discussed.

[**Super_Dogs**]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog.

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Well honestly that would say a lot more about the breeder than about people like the OP wouldn't it? I suspect many of the large scale breeding establishments may do this anyway. I think this thread has raised a valid point in questioning how well ex show and breeding dogs who have been largely raised in kennels will fit into a home environment. As someone who was looking at acquiring an older dog it was not something I had really considered and I appreciate this point being discussed.

Also agree it is a good point. I would not have thought it would be such as issue with ex-show dogs as there have to be socialised to be in the show environment with so many other dogs and people.

I would suggest it would me more an an issue with ex-breeding dogs that have not ever been in shows or any dog sport competitions.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

No this is not the case. Three of my 4 dogs are entire. The one with the worst doggy social skills is the one desexed dog (this has nothing to do with her being desexed - it was just an example).

Edited January 10, 2012 by buddy1

[Greytmate]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

The critical socialisation phase is between 5 weeks and 16 weeks of age. So all dogs are sexually entire and immature during socialisation.

Handling should happen at all ages, kennel enrichment should happen at all ages.

So the answer to your question is no, it isn't harder to do.

[LizT]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

The critical socialisation phase is between 5 weeks and 16 weeks of age. So all dogs are sexually entire and immature during socialisation.

Handling should happen at all ages, kennel enrichment should happen at all ages.

So the answer to your question is no, it isn't harder to do.

Except in the case of infant desexing. Although I gather that it would not be so different from the sexually immature animal.

[Greytmate]

Innocent/ potentially naive question- is part of problem that dogs kept for breeding are whole/ undesexed are more tricky to socialize ?

The critical socialisation phase is between 5 weeks and 16 weeks of age. So all dogs are sexually entire and immature during socialisation.

Handling should happen at all ages, kennel enrichment should happen at all ages.

So the answer to your question is no, it isn't harder to do.

Except in the case of infant desexing. Although I gather that it would not be so different from the sexually immature animal.

This topic is about adult dogs coming from breeders kennels being rehomed. These dogs are never desexed as infants.

[asal]

I agree! But what also makes me really angry is the way the breeders you have mentioned ( i am in no way aiming this at all breeders as it does not apply) just want to offload their dogs once they are finished with them! They claim they want to better the breed ect ect but what about loving them and keeping them on as family pets after their show career is finished? Do they not care for these animals at all or is it all abt winning the show??? I understand that breeders sometimes cannot keep all the show dogs they raise ect, but to offload them to you completely unsocialised! What chance do they think the poor things have at finding a new home

Sorry. but showing a dog by the very nature of its activity is a great way to socialise a dog. Where do you get unsocialised Show Dogs???

you would think so, but with a breed whose very standard says, suspicious of strangers, doesnt mean its not socalised, it does mean it doesnt go wagging its tail to strangers... sadly judy guards rehomed one that started judys nighmare didnt like the vet and everything went down hill from there, including said vet convincing the new owner the dog needed to be euthanised..

such a sad outcome on all fronts. when will some like that vet realise a dog does have rights to not like everyone...seems that dog was a very good judge of character in hindsight.

[oakway]

You may not care who is winning Best In Show or how many titles a dog may have but have you ever stopped to think that unless these dogs had good health and temperaments they would not be winning Best In Show.

A dog could win BIS while affected with a disease like PRA in its early stages, mild CEA, CL before symptoms show, epilepsy, high hip and elbow scores with no lameness, a unilaterally deaf dog or numerous other diseases. The show ring does not test a dogs genetic health - it is down to the ethics of the person showing the dog.

Or come off it some of those things are un detectable till the dog is is in middle age = PRA in my breed a certificate is not issued till the dog is 7 to show clear. So what do I do, I only use dogs that are clear by parentage like most others do.

Science is now showing us may things in all walks of life that can be avoided or eradicated, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and we don't have a magic wand to wave.

Many things occur in dogs just like they do in people without any warning. We are breeders not mind readers.

Are you also going condemn people who have a child that......lets say..... at 42 starts to suffer from epilepsy......so come on lets condemn the parents they produced a bad child. Look, crap happens in all walks of life. In many cases it is NOT always the fault of the breeder that dogs end up in rescue as the OP stated.

Yes many of us do place dogs that need to be placed and I am one of them.

To be able to produce a beautiful healthy pure bred dogs for you the public, many of us have to place older dogs in loving caring homes where we believe the dog will be forever. If things go wrong with that family and they place the dog in rescue and don't contact the breeder first, don't blame the breeder!!!!!.

Many families that may get a dog through rescue often don't realise that some of these dogs are used to being looked after in a better manner than the way they are going to look after this dog. Yes you heard me right, looked after better than these new owner do. Is it any wonder after years of care and dedication to maintaining this animal and the new owners promising to do the same and never do, that the dog ends up in rescue.

Then what happens, the process starts all over again. Yes OP you may get facts and figures but in many cases it not always the dogs fault.

Always remember OP that many people that breed often re home but when they see posts like yours it may just encourage them to have the dog PTS when we know of many cases some of these wonderful dogs have lived great lives and given their new family's many hours of pleasure.

Well honestly that would say a lot more about the breeder than about people like the OP wouldn't it? I suspect many of the large scale breeding establishments may do this anyway. I think this thread has raised a valid point in questioning how well ex show and breeding dogs who have been largely raised in kennels will fit into a home environment. As someone who was looking at acquiring an older dog it was not something I had really considered and I appreciate this point being discussed.

Also agree it is a good point. I would not have thought it would be such as issue with ex-show dogs as there have to be socialised to be in the show environment with so many other dogs and people.

I would suggest it would me more an an issue with ex-breeding dogs that have not ever been in shows or any dog sport competitions.

Ahhhhhh, but in many cases our breeding stock is the dog we show. Well it is in my case.

I have ever bred from a bitch that did not have her Aust Ch. Title. Many of my brood bitch have been grand Champions.

I do think it is about time this breeder bashing stopped or please differenciate between the ethical breeders and the people that just breed for profit.