DAVERI Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 isn't one of the most common reasons people breed to better the breed? well one that people will tell you. I am a member of a few breed specific rescue pages on facebook most just in my area (well with in 100kms). and over the last few months i've been overwhelmed with the number of dogs that need re-homing 85-90% which are either 12mth old ex show dogs or older bitches from show homes. but neally all of them can not be re-homed with other dogs. most tell the same story. no longer being shown so needs a new home but not social with dogs, other animals or children. often living in a run etc. and abot 25% or more are finding them selfs re-listed due to not working out at the new homes. If we choose to breed to better the breed shouldn't we be making sure that our dogs are socialised so that they have the best chance of finding suitable good homes along with type, temp and health etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I agree! But what also makes me really angry is the way the breeders you have mentioned ( i am in no way aiming this at all breeders as it does not apply) just want to offload their dogs once they are finished with them! They claim they want to better the breed ect ect but what about loving them and keeping them on as family pets after their show career is finished? Do they not care for these animals at all or is it all abt winning the show??? I understand that breeders sometimes cannot keep all the show dogs they raise ect, but to offload them to you completely unsocialised! What chance do they think the poor things have at finding a new home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 There are "breeders" and then there are Breeders, just like there is "owners" and then there are owners. What you are seeing is not typical, however for it to be in such a concentrated area is a concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yes I feel sad when I see "mature" dogs for sale from breeders that may be 6 years old or even older - they have outlived their usefulness and now are being passed on to a "pet home" for someone else to take responsibility for them. Most breeders don't appear to have any involvement in showing and some constantly have advertisements for litters for sale. Hardly in it for "betterment of the breed"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Age Outlaw Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) As Sway says, there are breeders and there are "breeders". Ethical breeders, whether they show or compete in some way or not, breed a small number of litters, in anticipation of being able to create a good example of their chosen breed. They socialise their pups before keeping or rehoming them. Even then, no matter how much they might want to, they may not be able to keep all the retired animals (some councils are becoming really hard to deal with on animal numbers, no matter how well they are kept). These animals are rehomed to loving and responsible families, who are open to owning an older dog. Some of us, as much as we love puppies, are not wanting to live with one and actually prefer to adopt an adult dog. There is nothing wrong with this. I personally have owned a few older adult ex show/breeding dogs and they were a source of great joy to my family and lived long and happy lives with us. The other kind of "breeder" is really just a back yard breeder, not matter how they try to dress it up. They don't do the necessary health checks, they don't really care about the betterment of the breed, they are more interested in things like which colours are more popular/will sell for more money. They often don't give their bitches a break between litters. It is a mistake to lump these two very different types of breeders together, as there is really almost no similarity between them. You have obviously found some of the other type, but the good ones are out there...you don't hear about them as often because they don't run around advertising on Facebook and Gumtree (usually)...they just quietly and calmly manage their breeding programs, for the betterment of their breed. Edited January 8, 2012 by New Age Outlaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 you probably won't come across the other type of breeder as any older dogs they need to rehome will be done by them and with the full back up support and option to take the dog back if it doesn't work out. their dogs will be socialised and used to a normal life. Of course, there are the occasional dogs who do better as a single pet, whether that be just their nature or because they've had a bad experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 As Sway says, there are breeders and there are "breeders". Ethical breeders, whether they show or compete in some way or not, breed a small number of litters, in anticipation of being able to create a good example of their chosen breed. They socialise their pups before keeping or rehoming them. Even then, no matter how much they might want to, they may not be able to keep all the retired animals (some councils are becoming really hard to deal with on animal numbers, no matter how well they are kept). These animals are rehomed to loving and responsible families, who are open to owning an older dog. Some of us, as much as we love puppies, are not wanting to live with one and actually prefer to adopt an adult dog. There is nothing wrong with this. I personally have owned a few older adult ex show/breeding dogs and they were a source of great joy to my family and lived long and happy lives with us. The other kind of "breeder" is really just a back yard breeder, not matter how they try to dress it up. They don't do the necessary health checks, they don't really care about the betterment of the breed, they are more interested in things like which colours are more popular/will sell for more money. They often don't give their bitches a break between litters. It is a mistake to lump these two very different types of breeders together, as there is really almost no similarity between them. You have obviously found some of the other type, but the good ones are out there...you don't hear about them as often because they don't run around advertising on Facebook and Gumtree (usually)...they just quietly and calmly manage their breeding programs, for the betterment of their breed. Sorry I don't agree even slightly that any specific number of litters be it a large number or a small number in any way indicates the ethics of a breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Yes I feel sad when I see "mature" dogs for sale from breeders that may be 6 years old or even older - they have outlived their usefulness and now are being passed on to a "pet home" for someone else to take responsibility for them. Most breeders don't appear to have any involvement in showing and some constantly have advertisements for litters for sale. Hardly in it for "betterment of the breed"! Well you seem to be knowledgeable about what "betterment for the breed" requires, perhaps you can explain why show involvement and litter advertisements are useful yard sticks to assess breeders with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) As Sway says, there are breeders and there are "breeders". Ethical breeders, whether they show or compete in some way or not, breed a small number of litters, in anticipation of being able to create a good example of their chosen breed. They socialise their pups before keeping or rehoming them. Even then, no matter how much they might want to, they may not be able to keep all the retired animals (some councils are becoming really hard to deal with on animal numbers, no matter how well they are kept). These animals are rehomed to loving and responsible families, who are open to owning an older dog. Some of us, as much as we love puppies, are not wanting to live with one and actually prefer to adopt an adult dog. There is nothing wrong with this. I personally have owned a few older adult ex show/breeding dogs and they were a source of great joy to my family and lived long and happy lives with us. The other kind of "breeder" is really just a back yard breeder, not matter how they try to dress it up. They don't do the necessary health checks, they don't really care about the betterment of the breed, they are more interested in things like which colours are more popular/will sell for more money. They often don't give their bitches a break between litters. It is a mistake to lump these two very different types of breeders together, as there is really almost no similarity between them. You have obviously found some of the other type, but the good ones are out there...you don't hear about them as often because they don't run around advertising on Facebook and Gumtree (usually)...they just quietly and calmly manage their breeding programs, for the betterment of their breed. Goodness lots of ideal sterotypes and romantic notions in here ... reminds me of the ye olde handbooks that describe how to identify a good virtuous woman suitable to make into a wife ... how she might dress and conduct herself ... what she bakes on Sundays ... Edited January 9, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) isn't one of the most common reasons people breed to better the breed? well one that people will tell you. I am a member of a few breed specific rescue pages on facebook most just in my area (well with in 100kms). and over the last few months i've been overwhelmed with the number of dogs that need re-homing 85-90% which are either 12mth old ex show dogs or older bitches from show homes. Are you a Rescue or a rehoming service? but neally all of them can not be re-homed with other dogs. Really, which breeds? most tell the same story. no longer being shown so needs a new home but not social with dogs, other animals or children. often living in a run etc. and abot 25% or more are finding them selfs re-listed due to not working out at the new homes. If we choose to breed to better the breed shouldn't we be making sure that our dogs are socialised so that they have the best chance of finding suitable good homes along with type, temp and health etc. if 25% of the dogs are are not working out in the new homes you put them in, I'd say the problem is with the assessment and home selection process - not the dogs. Edited January 9, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerRottweiler Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Ethical breeders......a dying breed. It might not be just about the $$$ these days, but a lot of damage is being done in the name of 'showing'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The betterment of the breed has nothing to do with how well a dog is socialised. Different ethical point entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommygirl Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 isn't one of the most common reasons people breed to better the breed? well one that people will tell you. I am a member of a few breed specific rescue pages on facebook most just in my area (well with in 100kms). and over the last few months i've been overwhelmed with the number of dogs that need re-homing 85-90% which are either 12mth old ex show dogs or older bitches from show homes. but neally all of them can not be re-homed with other dogs. most tell the same story. no longer being shown so needs a new home but not social with dogs, other animals or children. often living in a run etc. and abot 25% or more are finding them selfs re-listed due to not working out at the new homes. If we choose to breed to better the breed shouldn't we be making sure that our dogs are socialised so that they have the best chance of finding suitable good homes along with type, temp and health etc. I think you will find one of the things about facebook is you just find out about things more- I will hazard a guess that one of the breeds you take note in would be Bull Terriers (guessing by your DP), and being in Qld you quite likely would see my page on facebook which is for rescue of Bull Terriers. I know with what I have worked with over the past almost 12 months now has rarely been papered dogs, its mostly been BYB bullies. I too have noticed in an increase in dogs that come up on gumtree, facebook etc- but to be honest, I think its just being a part of the groups, and being in the loop- people are using social networking now more than ever for everything- the increase of buy/swap/sell pages, peoples business pages and all kinds of things on there is growing at a phenomenal rate- so while I can see how people think there is more rescue cases because you hear about it on FB more than before, IMHO its people utilizing social networking to find homes and spread the word that has increased more so than dogs actually in rescue. This is just my personal experience with it. I myself as a breeder as well as working in rescue have found that other breeders in BT's are hugely involved in taking back their own animals if they turned up in the pound or the likes. The ones who arent interested are in the MINORITY. Its very easy to sit back and judge but what you see floating around on FB but unless you are directly involved and know all the information and stories that go along with every case I wouldnt go throwing out figures of re-homing cases not working unless you yourself are involved with rescue. Happy to stand corrected if you do have REAL information there, not just your browsing of FB and making assumptions. I have seen the powers of facebook work for the good of animals too- by spreading the word getting lost dogs re-united with owners etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVERI Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'd like to point out im a social member i don't run the sites, i don't run any resuce groups and i don't breed. some are bull terrier groups but not all. I think that the term to better the breed should include all aspects of the breed including the breeds reputation! If some of this dogs are ec show and some state dogs have papers i'm assuming they are not all coming from BYB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) If some of this dogs are ec show and some state dogs have papers i'm assuming they are not all coming from BYB's. These are completely different things. It's perfectly possible for a BYB to breed dogs with "papers". The fact the dog has papers means absolutely nothing about the breeder's ethics. Some people who show are nothing more than BYB's who have an inflated opinion of their own stock. Some people who show are extremely ethical. "Papers" - Showing - neither has any bearing on the ethics or otherwise of the breeder concerned. Edited January 9, 2012 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well then why do people bother showing their dogs - they must think they are contributing to the "betterment of the breed"? I don't know they would have to tell us. And why is it that puppy buyers on this forum are often advised to seek out a breeder who shows their dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Most breeders provide a decent life for their dogs but they cannot offer the kind of life a retired dog would get in a private home either with one on one attention or as one of only two or three dogs. If the dog is going to get a "better" life retired in a companion home I really can't see what the problem is. Yes I work in breed rescue too, and yes there are one or two breeders whose dogs are regulars in the rescue environment. They are by far the minority of the breeding community, and whinging on the internet doesn't stop them. If anyone has some ideas on how to stop them, that don't involve bagging the other 95 per cent, I'll be happy to hear you out. Better people than me have tried. As Sway says, there is good and bad in every walk of life, and breeders could run this thread to pages and pages about iffy owners who do the wrong thing. The amount of time and space spent bagging breeders and showies on DOL over the last few weeks has just been phenomenal. Edited January 9, 2012 by SkySoaringMagpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Most breeders provide a decent life for their dogs but they cannot offer the kind of life a retired dog would get in a private home either with one on one attention or as one of only two or three dogs. If the dog is going to get a "better" life retired in a companion home I really can't see what the problem is. Yes I work in breed rescue too, and yes there are one or two breeders whose dogs are regulars in the rescue environment. They are by far the minority of the breeding community, and whinging on the internet doesn't stop them. If anyone has some ideas on how to stop them, that don't involve bagging the other 95 per cent, I'll be happy to hear you out. Better people than me have tried. As Sway says, there is good and bad in every walk of life, and breeders could run this thread to pages and pages about iffy owners who do the wrong thing. The amount of time and space spent bagging breeders and showies on DOL over the last few weeks has just been phenomenal. I came to this thread hoping for a decent conversation about the term "breeding to better the breed", I didn't come in to find a thread about breeder bashing... what a shame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommygirl Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Most breeders provide a decent life for their dogs but they cannot offer the kind of life a retired dog would get in a private home either with one on one attention or as one of only two or three dogs. If the dog is going to get a "better" life retired in a companion home I really can't see what the problem is. Yes I work in breed rescue too, and yes there are one or two breeders whose dogs are regulars in the rescue environment. They are by far the minority of the breeding community, and whinging on the internet doesn't stop them. If anyone has some ideas on how to stop them, that don't involve bagging the other 95 per cent, I'll be happy to hear you out. Better people than me have tried. As Sway says, there is good and bad in every walk of life, and breeders could run this thread to pages and pages about iffy owners who do the wrong thing. The amount of time and space spent bagging breeders and showies on DOL over the last few weeks has just been phenomenal. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 One of my past dogs cane to me at 6 yes of age. She wasn't necessarily going to be re- homed but the breeder thougt she would have a great life with me and offered her to me. The reason being he did have multiple dogs and she wouldn't get the attention that she would in my one or two dog home. She got walked at the beach every day and came to work with me every day. He felt he owed it to her to give her the best life possible in her retirement. She was with me until she died at almost 12 years of age and was loved with every inch of my heart. He didn't "get rid " of her when she was no longer useful for breeding. He gave her the life he felt she deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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