Steve Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Steve. Implying that the problem is insurmountable and leads to a blind alley in not helpful at all. Regards Px I am not now nor have I ever thought or attempted to imply that the problem is insurmountable or that it leads to a blind alley. If I thought that I wouldn't come here and bang my head against a wall and be accused of all manner of stupid things. Identify the problem - What is the problem? Is it that some people breed dogs commercially or it it that some people breed dogs in poor conditions? According to those who are responsible for introducing laws and regs etc the problem is people who breed dogs in poor conditions - they define puppy farmers as people who keep dogs in sub standard conditions. Nothing no part of what they legislate against is about why a breeder breeds or how many .It will remain a situation where stopping large scale commercial breeding is in surmountable while ever they continue to stick with defining commercial breeding as puppy farmers. Now if you feel the problem is commercial breeding then you need to be clear you are against commercial breeding as well as thise who keep dogs in poor conditions- puppy farmers according to official definition or every time you start to bang your drum no one hears the commercial breeding part. Its just ground hog day again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Identify the problem - What is the problem? Well the problem as you know is not specifically puppy farming. However, commercial interest is a part of the problem. I can take the time and make the effort to home the best dogs in places that have had Maremma as a pet before, or with rich Italians who currently have Maremma running and working, only to be given the disconcerting news that a top breeding bitch has not survived its first year, or that the dog was isolated in the recent floods and drowned. Despite our best efforts and intentions there is a lack of 'will' either through ignorance or just plain laziness. The problem is clear. The problem is the overall care and concern for the dogs through their full and complete life cycle. Puppy farms - exploitative or commercial interest ones, compound the problem of caring adequately for the animals taken into domestic or more productive situations. Although it does try to do something, the solution is not legislation since we cannot legislate for 'saintliness' or maunufacture the wisdom of Plato and Socrates for others. The solution is just as clear. All that can be done is to be 'an example to others' and teach them by our example. Regards Px Edited January 22, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Steve, Anyone who breeds and sells a juvenile animal is a commercial breeder. I was told that by the head of a leading animal welfare org in this country. So we are ALL commercial breeders unless we give the pups away! Forget numbers. Forget being commercial. If somebody is over-breeding, or if their kennels stink, or if their dogs are not healthy and are denied veterinary care, then they deserve to be subjected to a visit from the law. Sadly, to find this information, the good breeders will probably be subjected to a unheralded visit from the law, at any hour of the day or night, and this is the part that really stinks. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Steve, Anyone who breeds and sells a juvenile animal is a commercial breeder. Souff Not so, and you also have the option to disagree with what people tell you. Commercial means profitable. And herein is the dilemma. We all know that puppies cannot be raised properly for some financial return. However, the government will extract taxes from commercial breeders. Therein is the task ahead, ie, showing that if it is done properly, breeding cats and dogs is not a profit generating enterprise. It is a useful defintion because it also gives us the criteria by which to judge others. Namely, "Did you make a profit?" Large scale breeding of cats and dogs can only be conducted properly under the auspices of some recognised charity. Small scale breeders are charitable by definition. So I would have no problem with commercial breeding done properly and used as a tax concession. So, if the motive of the government is not increased revenue, but the ultimate welfare of our animals and an increased sence of humanity throughout the electorate, then I say; let if fly. But then, pigs might fly too. Px Edited January 22, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Large scale breeding of cats and dogs can only be conducted properly under the auspices of some recognised charity. Huh? If the law says that large scale commercial dog producers are fine then really what leg do you have to stand on to get the laws changed. If the dogs are kept according to the COP then what exactly are you going to complain about? No welfare breaches then the RSPCA aren't interested. You might personally not like volume breeders but that is your own opinion and not enforceable by law. It is inevitable that puppy farms will flourish with these new laws and will be untouchable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Large scale breeding of cats and dogs can only be conducted properly under the auspices of some recognised charity. If the law says that large scale commercial dog producers are fine then really what leg do you have to stand on to get the laws changed. If the dogs are kept according to the COP then what exactly are you going to complain about? No welfare breaches then the RSPCA aren't interested. You might personally not like volume breeders but that is your own opinion and not enforceable by law. It is inevitable that puppy farms will flourish with these new laws and will be untouchable. If who says? The Law is abstract and arbitrary, if I have to explain that then I'm sorry I don't have the time or space. Suffice it to say the Law is an Ass. Any lawyer will tell you that. It will not be possible to operate on the plane of Law, and protest over bad laws rarely does work on that level anyway. The platform has to be raised to above and beyond the law. Some charities are quite adept at doing just that. Hell knows, some charities have even changed the World. I would argue that the RSPCA are very interested and have the will. Lacking the resources is not the same thing. What's inevitable is the quality of dogs will be inferior and that includes temperament. They won't last long after that starts happening. The question is: Is some future dog attack a reasonable cost? Your answer, or anyones answer, must be No. Regards. Px Edited January 23, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Steve, Anyone who breeds and sells a juvenile animal is a commercial breeder. Souff Not so, and you also have the option to disagree with what people tell you. Commercial means profitable. And herein is the dilemma. We all know that puppies cannot be raised properly for some financial return. However, the government will extract taxes from commercial breeders. Therein is the task ahead, ie, showing that if it is done properly, breeding cats and dogs is not a profit generating enterprise. It is a useful defintion because it also gives us the criteria by which to judge others. Namely, "Did you make a profit?" Large scale breeding of cats and dogs can only be conducted properly under the auspices of some recognised charity. Small scale breeders are charitable by definition. So I would have no problem with commercial breeding done properly and used as a tax concession. So, if the motive of the government is not increased revenue, but the ultimate welfare of our animals and an increased sence of humanity throughout the electorate, then I say; let if fly. But then, pigs might fly too. Px Commercial doesnt mean profitable however, in order to apply for an ABN and register as a business and pay taxes you have to say you have the intention of making a profit. What breeder in their right mind would admit they made a profit ? The minute they do they are a puppy farmer - why should there be shame in a breeder making a profit anyway? We may not have making a profit as a main motivator but we cant judge a person and what they do based on what THEY SAY their motivation is either . Many people couldn't continue doing what they do for the betterment of the breed if they didnt make a profit to put back into what they are doing. I know someone who gets $7000 a puppy and they breed 4 litters of around 10 per year - they own 7 dogs. Now they may say they put it all back into the dogs but how will we prove that and what do we do if someone doesn't mean to make a profit but does make a profit ? How does whether or not someone makes a profit determine how they keep and treat their animals? How do we assume that because someone breeds more than someone else that their motivation is to pay the mortgage and not to put back into the dogs.If we put back 100,000 into building a nice shining new kennel block and show a loss does that mean all is well ? No one knows what my motivation for breeding my bitch is unless I tell them and Im being honest. they may not agree with my why either. The very minute we cross the line and say its O.K. to judge a breeder by their motivation rather than their actions purebred breeders who breed for the show ring or a champion are first on the hit list and there are a lot more powerful people waiting to flog us than there are those wanting to pay out on registered commercial cross breeders. Then we work through them who could say what their motivation is for breeding a dog which would pass muster by everyone ? None of us. Therefore any attempt at legislating against a breeder for what tehir perceived motivation is has to be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The Law is abstract and arbitrary, if I have to explain that then I'm sorry I don't have the time or space. Suffice it to say the Law is an Ass. Any lawyer will tell you that. Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't mean it can't be enforced, or conversely, that something that you personally deem unacceptable will be acted upon. So when a person is charged do the police say my neighbour doesn't like the way you conduct your business, or do they say you are charged under section X of act y? There is no law against commercial dog breeding so good luck trying to have someone prosecuted. Some charities are quite adept at doing just that.Hell knows, some charities have even changed the World. I'm sorry, I've never heard of a charity breeding dogs, can you please provide a source for this? I would argue that the RSPCA are very interested and have the will.Lacking the resources is not the same thing. Again, if the dogs are well fed and housed according to the COP what are the RSPCA actually going to have them charged them with? If there are no welfare breaches then how can the RSPCA act? What's inevitable is the quality of dogs will be inferior and that includes temperament. They won't last long after that starts happening. The question is: Is some future dog attack a reasonable cost? Your answer, or anyones answer, must be No. Purely personal opinion about the quality of the dogs and the RSPCA will not prosecute over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Commercial doesnt mean profitable What??!!! Commercial - indirectly or directly it is aimed at being fit for market. however, in order to apply for an ABN and register as a business and pay taxes you have to say you have the intention of making a profit. You don't have to pay taxes if you don't make a profit. What breeder in their right mind would admit they made a profit ? A persons state of mind is not the issue. The minute they do they are a puppy farmer - why should there be shame in a breeder making a profit anyway? It does not necessarily follow. They are not corollaries of each other ie A therefore B and B therefore A. We may not have making a profit as a main motivator but we cant judge a person and what they do based on what THEY SAY their motivation is either. No, but the proof is in the pudding as I point out below. Many people couldn't continue doing what they do for the betterment of the breed if they didnt make a profit to put back into what they are doing. I know someone who gets $7000 a puppy and they breed 4 litters of around 10 per year - they own 7 dogs. Now they may say they put it all back into the dogs but how will we prove that and what do we do if someone doesn't mean to make a profit but does make a profit ? How does whether or not someone makes a profit determine how they keep and treat their animals? How do we assume that because someone breeds more than someone else that their motivation is to pay the mortgage and not to put back into the dogs. If we put back 100,000 into building a nice shining new kennel block and show a loss does that mean all is well ? The fact that you know this person and the positive impact there activities have on the breed cancels that objection. No one knows what my motivation for breeding my bitch is unless I tell them and Im being honest. They may not agree with my why either. The very minute we cross the line and say its O.K. to judge a breeder by their motivation rather than their actions purebred breeders who breed for the show ring or a champion are first on the hit list and there are a lot more powerful people waiting to flog us than there are those wanting to pay out on registered commercial cross breeders. My understanding is that a prefix is awarded on the clear and specific expression of motivation - to better the breed and the expressed rejection of making a profit Then we work through them who could say what their motivation is for breeding a dog which would pass muster by everyone ? None of us. You are conflating the issue by lumping everyone in the same group. Therefore any attempt at legislating against a breeder for what their perceived motivation is has to be lost. But that contradicts the criteria for a breeders prefix. I have no problem with your $7000 a puppy breeder, whom I assume are registered breeders. Because, as I have pointed out, it is a side-effect of bettering the breed which over-rides the other outcomes. The same cannot be said for what the RSPCA has quite clearly, and correctly, identified as the indiscriminate breeding and placing of dogs. The placement of the dogs by the breeders and the procurement of the dogs by the public is an even greater problem because in a market economy demand is the genesis of the transaction. It is fair to say that there cannot be a one size fits all, and my stipualtion for a triple criterion still applies. Which dogs, under which conditions, with which managemant practices will be the most efficacious. These are the principles under which I am guided, none of which can be deemed to apply to legal commercial breeding enterprises. There are other economies, not just commercial ones. :D Regards Px Edited January 23, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If who says? The Law is abstract and arbitrary, if I have to explain that then I'm sorry I don't have the time or space. Suffice it to say the Law is an Ass. Any lawyer will tell you that. It will not be possible to operate on the plane of Law, and protest over bad laws rarely does work on that level anyway. The platform has to be raised to above and beyond the law. Some charities are quite adept at doing just that. Hell knows, some charities have even changed the World. I would argue that the RSPCA are very interested and have the will. Lacking the resources is not the same thing. What's inevitable is the quality of dogs will be inferior and that includes temperament. They won't last long after that starts happening. The question is: Is some future dog attack a reasonable cost? Your answer, or anyones answer, must be No. Regards. Px The law may be an ass but it's what is worked with, even via the RSPCA (whom I wouldn't trust to tie their shoelaces without falling over). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) The Law is abstract and arbitrary, if I have to explain that then I'm sorry I don't have the time or space. Suffice it to say the Law is an Ass. Any lawyer will tell you that. It will not be possible to operate on the plane of Law, and protest over bad laws rarely does work on that level anyway. The platform has to be raised to above and beyond the law. Some charities are quite adept at doing just that. Hell knows, some charities have even changed the World. I'm sorry, I've never heard of a charity breeding dogs, can you please provide a source for this? Repeat. It will not be possible to operate on the plane of Law, and protest over bad laws rarely does work on that level anyway. The platform has to be raised to above and beyond the law. I've quite clearly outlined that my point is not legislation or law enforcement I'm not going to explain it to you or keep going over old ground. As far as I'm concerned it is already so yesterday. Px Edited January 23, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Repeat. It will not be possible to operate on the plane of Law, and protest over bad laws rarely does work on that level anyway. The platform has to be raised to above and beyond the law. I've quite clearly outlined that my point is not legislation or law enforcement I'm not going to explain it to you or keep going over old ground. As far as I'm concerned it is already so yesterday. Px Well, this is plainly ridiculous. Good luck with your one person crusade. No one will know what you're talking about. Edited January 23, 2012 by Sheridan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Repeat. It will not be possible to operate on the plane of Law, and protest over bad laws rarely does work on that level anyway. The platform has to be raised to above and beyond the law. I've quite clearly outlined that my point is not legislation or law enforcement I'm not going to explain it to you or keep going over old ground. As far as I'm concerned it is already so yesterday. Px Well, this is plainly ridiculous. Good luck with your one person crusade. No one will know what you're talking about. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Steve, Anyone who breeds and sells a juvenile animal is a commercial breeder. Souff Not so, and you also have the option to disagree with what people tell you. Commercial means profitable. And herein is the dilemma. We all know that puppies cannot be raised properly for some financial return. However, the government will extract taxes from commercial breeders. Px I exercise my option to disagree ... frequently. :D However I was told this by one who has enforcement powers so I preferred to exercise the right to remain silent. The ATO doesn't give a damn how you made your money; their aim is to collect their share of your profits. But before one can declare a profit one must deduct one's costs. Pups can be raised properly and some breeders can make a profit ... depending on their outgoings and the breed they have chosen and the desirability of that breed to people who can afford to pay big money. Elitist stuff really, but there you go. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Commercial doesnt mean profitable however, in order to apply for an ABN and register as a business and pay taxes you have to say you have the intention of making a profit. OMG, did I say that? :laugh: It could be assumed that you have that intention I spose ... wonder if this is why Souff's accountant has no hair left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Good luck with your one person crusade. No one will know what you're talking about. Yep. How-you-can-stop-puppy-mills Breeding for Quality not Quantity - Love not Money. An old article, coopted from Channel 7 but makes some good points. No way to treat man's best friend More recent article but shows how charities can oppose the guzumping interest of commercial breeders. A one person crusade Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I exercise my option to disagree ... frequently. :D However I was told this by one who has enforcement powers so I preferred to exercise the right to remain silent. The ATO doesn't give a damn how you made your money; their aim is to collect their share of your profits. But before one can declare a profit one must deduct one's costs. Pups can be raised properly and some breeders can make a profit ... depending on their outgoings and the breed they have chosen and the desirability of that breed to people who can afford to pay big money. Elitist stuff really, but there you go. Souff I'm not sure that when incomings exceed outgoings the line has not been crossed. The excess is naturally going to be absorbed into the kennel. For example, time is going to significantly reduce any excess over the life of a dog. The more dogs, the greater the economic reversal due to age. Also the higher the gains, the greater the risks. I'd be paying some sort of hefty insurance premium for such expensive dogs. I'm not so sure about Ground Hog Day and shifting shadows, as it seems to me that commercial breeds are much more like a case of the Goose that Layed the Golden Egg. Which means to say, commercial breeders will put time ahead of their profits once they become productive and greed will be their undoing. Neither do I think the activities of some registered breeders can be held up as a lamp to others. [Mores the pity], that fools may not speak wisely what wise men do foolishly. Px Edited January 23, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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