How To Stop Pulling On The Lead.

[Red Fox]

Yes. Harness for C work/drive building, collar for obedience and tracking. There are times I want my dog to pull into the harness

At the end of the day it depends on what you are training for and what you want out of the dog. The OP was asking about loose lease walking though, not SchH training. The solution for her dog will be different again...

If all a person wants is to be able to walk their pet dog down the street comfortably and doesn't care for off leash control then a front attach harness may be the solution for them? But this is not training a dog to walk on a loose leash either.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by m&m Koehler was good in obedience but where he was beaten was competition, half Keohler, half motivational reward is common in working dog training when you watch closely what's going on.

I think you may be right on the question of competition. Koehler's method was devised at a time when the emphasis was more on trial than competition. The working in drive and highly animated performance of dogs in competition was never Koehler's aim. Koehler trained dogs are rarely flashy.

Dogs have good memories and learning on long lines with hard corrections causes hesitation on the send out in some dogs, or dog's shooting out 10metres then balking and looking back at the handler for a 2nd command and it's a hard thing to break if that happens.

I don't really know about this, you may right, but I suspect it is more a training issue than issue of the long line. The send out in Koehler is built off the retrieve, if you have a good retrieve then I suspect you will have a good send out.

[Kavik]

Yes. Harness for C work/drive building, collar for obedience and tracking. There are times I want my dog to pull into the harness

Yes I'm finding opposition reflex is often your friend (using it a lot atm in Recallers) :D Though I don't use a harness.

[lovemesideways]

Don't take my comment to be patronising please as it's not my intent, but high drive working pups have been trained before worldwide and they are NOT trained on harnesses I can promise you that. The pup sounds to lack pack drive and handler focus, or your training program is way off the mark IMHO, leaves blowing in the wind for the pup to loose focus on you in prey means you are not delivering enough handler enthusiasm into the pup, the pup should be jumping at you and wanting to interact with you, not hitting the end of the leash from distractions? Try the Ivan Balabanov puppy CD's, they are great to teach focus building. Tools are not the problem here and truthfully it sounds more a training problem with the pup :)

Right.. Im sorry, who are you exactly? Since you have so much experience with working dogs Im just curious. Would love to know who you are so I can check out some of your work :)

The incident in question was when the puppy was 8-10 WEEKS OLD. As in, a baby, who had no focus on me yet, and was totally self confident and had no value for anyone. If you can get a puppy at the age who is totally self assured and create some magical bond in the first 5 minutes, I would love to hear how, you could make millions! For me It took a lot of engagement and drive work between Roscoe and I, but now we have a great bond and there is no training issues with my boy. I simply would not be putting a leash and flat collar collar on a high drive puppy like that again, because of the chance of injury, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else do it either.

And Sorry, but what you said was in my opinion, incredibly patronising and completely baseless. I stated that this happened when Roscoe was a baby, hes almost 6 months old now. We're very far past that. I dont see how telling me my puppy lacks drive and I obviously have training issues could be anything but patronising and insulting.

Not sure if that comment above was directed at me? I personally have no problems with handler focus when working with my pup. She works on collar and leash (or none at all) she pushes me to work - active, not re-active. She's only 4 months old, I don't expect her to be perfect. I did use a harness for the first couple of weeks to move her around, not to 'train' her. I believe that Michael Ellis recommends the same.

No it wasn't you SecretKei, my post was directed to the Rosco puppy.

Personally I don't put a leash on a pup until at least 12 weeks after the pup has a value and bond with me first, then introducing a leash is easy. I have seen young pups hitting the end of leashes as described, but I don't like subjecting a young pup to that, neither do I take pups out where they need a leash until their vaccinations are solid as I am paranoid about Parvo and try to protect them from that possiblity the best I can. In the meantime, I just do basic obedience and focus, retrieve exercises and rag work and fun stuff with the puppy. I think too many people get wound up about making every hour count in early puppy training fearing they will ruin the pups chances of being trained, I disagree with that and was proven when Peirre Walstrom took an untrained out of control adolescent GSD the original owners couldn't handle to a world Schutzhund title, I think sometimes trying to do the right thing, people push young pups too hard in regimented training, I prefer to just do basic stuff and have fun in their early life :)

Are these comments directed at me? :confused:

Obviously we have different beliefs, I choose to take my puppies to as many places as possible from the day I get them, to expose them to everything I can in that time. That early exposure was just too important. Yes there is risk, but there is risk everywhere and I minimized it as much as possible whilst still exposing them to everything in the outside world. 4 week is a long time for a puppy to be stuck in my backyard missing out on everything the world has to offer. I would much prefer to put them on a harness during that time so I can easily move them around without damaging their neck or worry about them have early association to pulling on a collar.

"Personally I don't put a leash on a pup until at least 12 weeks after the pup has a value and bond with me first, then introducing a leash is easy. I have seen young pups hitting the end of leashes as described, but I don't like subjecting a young pup to that"

So we're in agreement then. But since you have stated that you wouldn't use a harness, how exactly do you move your puppy around for 4 weeks?

Are you still breeding Amstaffs? Or do you breed and train working dogs now?

Edited January 15, 2012 by lovemesideways

[m&m]

Don't take my comment to be patronising please as it's not my intent, but high drive working pups have been trained before worldwide and they are NOT trained on harnesses I can promise you that. The pup sounds to lack pack drive and handler focus, or your training program is way off the mark IMHO, leaves blowing in the wind for the pup to loose focus on you in prey means you are not delivering enough handler enthusiasm into the pup, the pup should be jumping at you and wanting to interact with you, not hitting the end of the leash from distractions? Try the Ivan Balabanov puppy CD's, they are great to teach focus building. Tools are not the problem here and truthfully it sounds more a training problem with the pup :)

Right.. Im sorry, who are you exactly? Since you have so much experience with working dogs Im just curious. Would love to know who you are so I can check out some of your work :)

The incident in question was when the puppy was 8-10 WEEKS OLD. As in, a baby, who had no focus on me yet, and was totally self confident and had no value for anyone. If you can get a puppy at the age who is totally self assured and create some magical bond in the first 5 minutes, I would love to hear how, you could make millions! For me It took a lot of engagement and drive work between Roscoe and I, but now we have a great bond and there is no training issues with my boy. I simply would not be putting a leash and flat collar collar on a high drive puppy like that again, because of the chance of injury, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else do it either.

And Sorry, but what you said was in my opinion, incredibly patronising and completely baseless. I stated that this happened when Roscoe was a baby, hes almost 6 months old now. We're very far past that. I dont see how telling me my puppy lacks drive and I obviously have training issues could be anything but patronising and insulting.

Not sure if that comment above was directed at me? I personally have no problems with handler focus when working with my pup. She works on collar and leash (or none at all) she pushes me to work - active, not re-active. She's only 4 months old, I don't expect her to be perfect. I did use a harness for the first couple of weeks to move her around, not to 'train' her. I believe that Michael Ellis recommends the same.

No it wasn't you SecretKei, my post was directed to the Rosco puppy.

Personally I don't put a leash on a pup until at least 12 weeks after the pup has a value and bond with me first, then introducing a leash is easy. I have seen young pups hitting the end of leashes as described, but I don't like subjecting a young pup to that, neither do I take pups out where they need a leash until their vaccinations are solid as I am paranoid about Parvo and try to protect them from that possiblity the best I can. In the meantime, I just do basic obedience and focus, retrieve exercises and rag work and fun stuff with the puppy. I think too many people get wound up about making every hour count in early puppy training fearing they will ruin the pups chances of being trained, I disagree with that and was proven when Peirre Walstrom took an untrained out of control adolescent GSD the original owners couldn't handle to a world Schutzhund title, I think sometimes trying to do the right thing, people push young pups too hard in regimented training, I prefer to just do basic stuff and have fun in their early life :)

Are these comments directed at me? :confused:

Obviously we have different beliefs, I choose to take my puppies to as many places as possible from the day I get them, to expose them to everything I can in that time. That early exposure was just too important. Yes there is risk, but there is risk everywhere and I minimized it as much as possible whilst still exposing them to everything in the outside world. 4 week is a long time for a puppy to be stuck in my backyard missing out on everything the world has to offer. I would much prefer to put them on a harness during that time so I can easily move them around without damaging their neck or worry about them have early association to pulling on a collar.

"Personally I don't put a leash on a pup until at least 12 weeks after the pup has a value and bond with me first, then introducing a leash is easy. I have seen young pups hitting the end of leashes as described, but I don't like subjecting a young pup to that"

So we're in agreement then. But since you have stated that you wouldn't use a harness, how exactly do you move your puppy around for 4 weeks?

Are you still breeding Amstaffs? Or do you breed and train working dogs now?

You are right, they don't have much handler value and focus at 8 to 10 weeks old, that why I build that first before I put collars and leashes on them ;) When I need to move them, I use that necessity to train in some handler focus as part of the exercise or if that fails, pick them up and carry them at that age, it's not that hard :)

Some GSD lines have better pack drive and handler focus than others, I prefer lines that go back on Rolf or Utz for handler focus and trainability, your pup goes back on Hettel lines which is consistant with the amount of work to get focus and pack drive, the reason I don't choose Hettel lines, but that's just my personal preference?

There just my views, you have given us yours and anyone interested in the thread can decide what suits them best :)

[Nekhbet]

A toy or treat in the pocket gets a pups attention very quickly despite not having the pup for long... pop over to any puppy class and watch how many of the little buggers you can have glued to you I too have never used a harness on a young pup, they need to learn so it's collars all the way and they live in them 24/7. I just don't like avoiding the problem of a pup pulling, they're only little and quite manageable, plus it's a great opportunity to teach who the focus should lie on at a really young age.

I simply would not be putting a leash and flat collar collar on a high drive puppy like that again, because of the chance of injury, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else do it either.

how fast was your puppy going to cause himself that much injury? Saying that did the breeder do any collar work with them at all or was his first experience of being on a leash with you? That could be part of it, pups should be knowing what collars and leads are from as young as possible.

I do see where m&m is coming from with making the bond first then putting collar and leash on for moving about, I do a similar thing but with separating new dogs from existing until they are well bonded with me, then they get a bit more free reign with the other dogs in the house. I don't use harnesses for everyday, they're work only.

[lovemesideways]

You are right, they don't have much handler value and focus at 8 to 10 weeks old, that why I build that first before I put collars and leashes on them ;) When I need to move them, I use that necessity to train in some handler focus as part of the exercise or if that fails, pick them up and carry them at that age, it's not that hard :)

Some GSD lines have better pack drive and handler focus than others, I prefer lines that go back on Rolf or Utz for handler focus and trainability, your pup goes back on Hettel lines which is consistant with the amount of work to get focus and pack drive, the reason I don't choose Hettel lines, but that's just my personal preference?

There just my views, you have given us yours and anyone interested in the thread can decide what suits them best :)

You didn't answer the question on whether you still breed amstaffs or not . Or if you decided to switch to breeding and training working dogs? What happened to all your amstaffs then?

I didn't pick my dog based on who hes related to 10-20+ generations ago. I looked at his parents and their breeding and what their direct relatives have achieved. I don't know a great deal about Rolf, Utz or Hettel lines and I won't pretend to now (Though I could google away and no doubt say a bunch of nonsense that would sound really good!) if you want to go through his relatives via Pedigreedatabase then go ahead.

The main difference between us? I'm not full of it. People have met me, and my dogs (as abused and lacking drive as they are :laugh:). I'll gladly listen and learn from others, when its deserved. Not when they have a lot to say and nothing to show for it. And not when they spend all their time making dozens of logins to the same online website. :laugh:

Edited January 15, 2012 by lovemesideways

[Kavik]

Kaos tried to attack his collar when I first put it on him as a puppy Never had a dog do that before! Obviously he had not had one on until he got to my place.

[sheena]

I havn't read through all the post, so fogive me if this suggestion has already been made. My 10 month old BC puppy is going really well with his LLW & also his heeling, but I mainly train him on a front attaching halter, tho he is also pretty good on the flat collar & without a lead. On occassions when he gets a little excited & starts to pull on his flat collar, I hold the lead in my RH then pass the lead under his neck, giving me 3 leads. It rests very loosely on his chest & forms like a sort of handle you see on Service dogs. Not sure if I have made the description clear, but it is so simple & I can walk all 22 kilos of him with just my little finger holding the lead. It's not a substitute for good training, but it gets you out of trouble when the environment is just too exciting.

[mikej]

I read through all the posts. I used to work with sheep dogs mainly Border Collies and Kelpies generally a mix of both.

We didn't know most of what has been talked about here dogs in drive, Kohler, etc. etc.(I know some of it now) To get a dog to walk to heel we used a leash and a stick not to hit the dog but as a blocker and you would just say "behind" they learnt didn't use treats didn't know about treats.

You could have five dogs all off leash all walking to heel or there abouts.

There are others out there that could relate to much of what I have said find em go and talk to them they know lots of stuff about dogs.

Mike

[ursus]

Now, delving into the forbidden... Is there a value in using electronic collars to teach not pulling on the lead?

[Kavik]

Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools.

[Salukifan]

Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools.

I completely disagree.

I think fitted around the neck of the handler, an e-collar would quickly sharpen up appropriate correction and reward giving. :)

Without effective demonstraton of what's desired behaviour to a dog being taught on lead, I see little value in an e-collar. I'm sure it could be used but I'd defy your average pet owner to use one more effectively than other methods.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[ursus]

Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools.

Sorry, what's LLW?

[ness]

LLW = Loose Leash Walking.

[Kavik]

If someone can't teach loose leash walking, I think they have no business using a tool such as an ecollar.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Kavik

[Nekhbet]

depends on the dog and the capability of the handler. I think depending on the reason for lack of loose lead walking an e-collar would probably not be the best thing for the dog in a lot of circumstances, but it could be. A session with a good trainer is the best place to start when you have an idea like this because then at least you can transfer the skill over to other things with the e-collar.

If you have the stim on low with the good quality collars its not zapping the life out of the dog, and for a person who is not physically strong against a large, out of control dog it can work very well when coupled with focus work and strong reinforcement.

[m-sass]

Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools.

An Ecollar is only the evolution of a check chain :D

[Kavik]

Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools.

An Ecollar is only the evolution of a check chain :D

I disagree with that. They are used in different ways and work differently, and there are places where ecollars are banned, including all competitions.

[Weasels]

If someone can't teach loose leash walking, I think they have no business using a tool such as an ecollar.

:)