How To Stop Pulling On The Lead.

[lovemesideways]

Posted by Aidan If I could give you a piece of very valuable advice - be less credulous. Everyone is an expert on the internet. Anyone can get testimonials.

Aidan what gives or speaks with authority for each of us is different. For many people in regards to dog training science speaks with authority. I could say the same thing to those people, be a little less credulous.

This is not having a dig, just noting that the lines of authority speak differently to different people.

I am a person who is impressed by real world experience, not science when it comes to dog training.

Would LOVE to see a video of you and your dog then.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan Unfortunately what you will find is that any study with good external validity (that is, conducted in the "real world" outside of the laboratory) will have something wrong with it. How can we see what a broad cross-section of the dog owning public does without a survey? How can we design a survey that answers questions that we're interested in without inherent bias? It is very difficult.

Well you can start by not biasing the results right from the start. The people being surveyed in this study were attending a behaviorist vet. People who go to such vets go because whatever they are doing has not worked. Hence you have ruled out from the study those interventions that succeeded with the use of adversives without any adverse effects.

Unfortunately, outside of science we have proven to be extraordinarily poor at rejecting false claims. I cannot stress that enough.

The history of science shows that scientists have as much difficulty in changing their views regardless of the evidence. How much they resist change depends on how much their reputation as scientists are based on the outdated view they support. In science, change most often comes when the older generation die out and are replaced by the younger generation not wedded to a certain view.

Did you know that behaviorism that was originally intended as a theory of human behavior has long been discarded in the human sciences as being inadequate to explain behavior? Perhaps one day, the animal sciences will likewise catch up.

Personally, truth be told, I don't regard behavior science to be good science nor adequate in understanding behavior.

[raineth]

Can we please see some footage of you and your dog/s itsadogslife?

I have seen a few clips of Aidan handling dogs, and it looked very effective to me :)

I went and checked out a trainer today. There isn't many trainers in the area and I was interested when I heard there was one I didn't know about.

He told me that only uneducated trainers use rewards. He uses the check chain, smacking with the leash, and yelling to train the dogs.

I heard that one lady there had had a very dog agressive dog who sure enough was not showing aggressive behaviour when I saw it. So maybe his methods are successful.

But I also didn't see any happy connection between the dog and his handler. I didn't see any dog keen to work. I saw some stressed dogs and some dogs that were just trudging along.

Interestingly also whenever a handler came close enough to me, their dog pulled toward me to say hello. Every dog did this. And I found it strange. Usually dogs at training are focussed on their owner, or atleast getting there.

So what I am getting at is that, people also have different bench-marks. The trainer that I saw today thought he was a success. But he wasn't successful at the things I value, such as a keen and happy dog, that is enjoying working with its handler.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by raineth Can we please see some footage of you and your dog/s itsadogslife?

I have seen a few clips of Aidan handling dogs, and it looked very effective to me

I am sure that Aidan is effective at handling dogs - much more skilled than I would be. Riley is in his second week of training, he is the second dog I have trained. My handling skills range from average to inept depending on which day you see me.

As for video, i don't have a very good camera, but I will see if I can get something on video in the next couple of weeks.

He told me that only uneducated trainers use rewards.

I cannot imagine any effective training method that is not built on rewards. It depends on what the trainer means by rewards. It was a silly remark.

He uses the check chain, smacking with the leash, and yelling to train the dogs.

I would not go near this kind of trainer.

So what I am getting at is that, people also have different bench-marks. The trainer that I saw today thought he was a success. But he wasn't successful at the things I value, such as a keen and happy dog, that is enjoying working with its handler.

This is the kind of dog that the Koehler Method produces. Many people are not impressed. Fair enough. Choose the method that produces the behavior you want. I might add that the video shows the dog in the ring - the behavior of the dog (as it is trained by Koehler) will be the same whether inside or outside the ring. Check out the obedience page on her website for the video - http://misterrugby7.blogspot.com/

[Aidan3]

Well you can start by not biasing the results right from the start. The people being surveyed in this study were attending a behaviorist vet. People who go to such vets go because whatever they are doing has not worked. Hence you have ruled out from the study those interventions that succeeded with the use of adversives without any adverse effects.

How do you explain the difference between respondents who had used 'confrontational' vs 'non-confrontational' techniques then? Both categories were presenting to the veterinary behaviourists. There is definitely bias in there, but it's not what you're highlighting here and it's still not looking good for those using confrontational methods.

Unfortunately, outside of science we have proven to be extraordinarily poor at rejecting false claims. I cannot stress that enough.

The history of science shows that scientists have as much difficulty in changing their views regardless of the evidence. How much they resist change depends on how much their reputation as scientists are based on the outdated view they support.

We're not talking about scientists. We're talking about science.

Did you know that behaviorism that was originally intended as a theory of human behavior has long been discarded in the human sciences as being inadequate to explain behavior?

No, I did not know that. I hope they plan on telling me before I finish my degree, but they've been strangely quiet on that fact so far. We have some comparative psychologists and biologists researching animal cognition on this very forum. Behaviourism is alive and well in both human and animal psychology, I can assure you of that.

Personally, truth be told, I don't regard behavior science to be good science nor adequate in understanding behavior.

What do you regard to be better science and more adequate in understanding behaviour?

[mace]

Seriously?

Yes I know that's not how you train on a long long. My Lab has 100% recall (and I do mean 100%) and I never needed to correct him on a long line once in his life, my GSD is going the same way too. No long line corrections needed so obviously I'm doing something right. I also wouldn't correct a puppy on a long line with a flat collar anyway. Do you know what sort of damage that can do? I used a flat collar on my GSD for the first 2 weeks I had him, he spent 3 weeks with no collar or pressure on his throat allowed due to the damage he had done himself with a flat collar. Not fun!

I was explaining the "miracle" as shown in the video. A adult dog, generally with a history of success in pulling, and a high level of tolerance to pain on his neck. That's why you need a check chain, prong collar or E Collar. Don Sullivan does the same thing (though he has his own shoddy plastic prong collar called a "command collar"), Ed Frawley does the same thing (though he judges the level of correction based on the dog). Its not exactly a unique method. I was taught it in a class I took at a very well respected organisation, using a check chain.

Correct pretty much any dog hard enough and you'll get a very fast result that looks really amazing on camera. That is if you don't know the body language of a dog in distress... (The Dog Whisperer anyone?

I didn't mention attaining recall from corrections on a long line, what's recall got to do with loose leash walking

Oh also, just asked my vet about how many neck injuries she gets from collar abuse and she has had one in 15 years with a dog that fell off the back of a ute on too long a line to keep him inside the tray, other than that, your neck/throat injuries sound like bullshit to me given that every pet outlet sells choke chains in large supply, they would have been taken off the market years ago along with flat puppy collars in that case

What you are repeating is typical propoganda from the training faction who use alternative training methods, we have heard all them before by the truckload, what's new :rolleyes:

[mace]

How do you explain the difference between respondents who had used 'confrontational' vs 'non-confrontational' techniques then? Both categories were presenting to the veterinary behaviourists. There is definitely bias in there, but it's not what you're highlighting here and it's still not looking good for those using confrontational methods.

Aidan, there is one I can tell you about was a tail chaser who used to spin up and bite his tail hard and flick blood all over the walls making the owners house look like murder scene. The dog had behaviourists, trainers and a vet behaviourst to deal with what was diagnosed as compulsive disorder. The dog had all the vet work, put on drugs etc etc, in the end the vet behaviourist recommended a tail amputation.

The owner told another trainer about this situation and asked if he could try something and the owner agreed. In exactly an hour and a half, he fixed the tail chasing with an Ecollar on that day. The dog did do it again in the proceeding couple of days, was fitted up with an Ecollar and closely monitored, in less than a week the behaviour was rectified. The dog was too scared to bite it's tail, because of the Ecollar stimulation, but the point is, so what, it hasn't chased it's tail for 2 years, true story. :D

[lovemesideways]

I didn't mention attaining recall from corrections on a long line, what's recall got to do with loose leash walking

Oh also, just asked my vet about how many neck injuries she gets from collar abuse and she has had one in 15 years with a dog that fell off the back of a ute on too long a line to keep him inside the tray, other than that, your neck/throat injuries sound like bullshit to me given that every pet outlet sells choke chains in large supply, they would have been taken off the market years ago along with flat puppy collars in that case

What you are repeating is typical propoganda from the training faction who use alternative training methods, we have heard all them before by the truckload, what's new :rolleyes:

If you don't understand how what I said relates to loose leash walking thats ok. Hey can we see a video of you working with your dog? Or any dog for that matter :D

Bullshit? Ok :laugh: Scissors can kill someone, yet we sell them in supermarkets... Ive seen a dog injure himself with a harness, rubbed him to the point of raw bleeding under front legs, should they be taken off the market? :laugh:

Its not the tool, its how its used. I will never again have a flat collar and leash only on a high drive puppy (I used one of my lab and thats all hes ever worn, no issue). I ignored the warnings against it, and got to enjoy the vet bills.

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils. Talked to your vet did you? Wow you called them just for me :D Im so special!

What part of "I use corrections" don't you understand? I have no issue with them, so not sure what you mean by "alternative training methods"? Unless you mean using whatever method works for the individual dog. Seriously ... oh wait whats your name this time? Oh right, "Mace" ;)...

Edit: Nevermind about the video, just seen some and wow. Confirms everything. Not a bad looking GSD, shame about the training. Lack of drive too. :laugh:

Edited January 14, 2012 by lovemesideways

[Aidan3]

How do you explain the difference between respondents who had used 'confrontational' vs 'non-confrontational' techniques then? Both categories were presenting to the veterinary behaviourists. There is definitely bias in there, but it's not what you're highlighting here and it's still not looking good for those using confrontational methods.

Aidan, there is one I can tell you about

I'm sure we could find thousands like this. How does it relate to the study in question? There were plenty of people who had success with confrontational methods in the study cited also.

[Red Fox]

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils.

Out of curiosity LMSW, how long was your leash and why was the pup hitting the end of it so hard?

[mace]

I didn't mention attaining recall from corrections on a long line, what's recall got to do with loose leash walking

Oh also, just asked my vet about how many neck injuries she gets from collar abuse and she has had one in 15 years with a dog that fell off the back of a ute on too long a line to keep him inside the tray, other than that, your neck/throat injuries sound like bullshit to me given that every pet outlet sells choke chains in large supply, they would have been taken off the market years ago along with flat puppy collars in that case

What you are repeating is typical propoganda from the training faction who use alternative training methods, we have heard all them before by the truckload, what's new :rolleyes:

If you don't understand how what I said relates to loose leash walking thats ok. Hey can we see a video of you working with your dog? Or any dog for that matter :D

Bullshit? Ok :laugh: Scissors can kill someone, yet we sell them in supermarkets... Ive seen a dog injure himself with a harness, rubbed him to the point of raw bleeding under front legs, should they be taken off the market? :laugh:

Its not the tool, its how its used. I will never again have a flat collar and leash only on a high drive puppy (I used one of my lab and thats all hes ever worn, no issue). I ignored the warnings against it, and got to enjoy the vet bills.

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils. Talked to your vet did you? Wow you called them just for me :D Im so special!

What part of "I use corrections" don't you understand? I have no issue with them, so not sure what you mean by "alternative training methods"? Unless you mean using whatever method works for the individual dog. Seriously ... oh wait whats your name this time? Oh right, "Mace" ;)...

Edit: Nevermind about the video, just seen some and wow. Confirms everything. Not a bad looking GSD, shame about the training. Lack of drive too. :laugh:

What the hell are you on about LMSW, do you think because you have gone from a Lab to GSD pup you are now a full bottle on everything What would I want videos for, this is a discussion isn't it?

You are talking about abuse caused by trainer/handler error, it's not an across the board result of using particular methods and tools that all these terrible consequences happen, when you know how to use them properly, it doesn't happen and if you hurt your poor little pup with a flat collar, blame yourself not the damn collar :rolleyes:

[mace]

How do you explain the difference between respondents who had used 'confrontational' vs 'non-confrontational' techniques then? Both categories were presenting to the veterinary behaviourists. There is definitely bias in there, but it's not what you're highlighting here and it's still not looking good for those using confrontational methods.

Aidan, there is one I can tell you about

I'm sure we could find thousands like this. How does it relate to the study in question? There were plenty of people who had success with confrontational methods in the study cited also.

I am sorry Aidan, I took it as though no confronational methods worked according to the study, my apology :)

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan How do you explain the difference between respondents who had used 'confrontational' vs 'non-confrontational' techniques then?

I don’t need to. The study only discusses the drawbacks to using what it defines as ‘confrontational methods’ it does not address or even consider the benefits of such methods. It is of course unable to do so because the study is biased to present only those instances where it didn’t work. It is in the discussion of the results that the bias is clearly shown.

and it's still not looking good for those using confrontational methods.

It will never look good for ‘confrontational methods’ if studies such as this decline to address or even consider the benefits as well as the drawbacks. Everything we do has a cost/benefit. When you only consider one side of the story you’ll always get the result you a looking for.

We're not talking about scientists. We're talking about science.

Aidan, science is what scientists do, it’s not something independent of scientists. I might add, that many of the disputes in science come about as the result of the one group of scientists (the older group) doing science in one particular way and the younger group doing it differently. The older group reject the younger group’s way of doing things because they don’t see what the other group is doing as science. Science does not proceed in a linear, progressive way piling up the facts. It is as much a creative enterprise as it is an empirical one.

Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. Read Thomas Kuhn’s ‘Structure of Scientific Revolutions’ if you are interested.

No, I did not know that. I hope they plan on telling me before I finish my degree, but they've been strangely quiet on that fact so far.

And I am sure they will remain silent. LOL. They are hardly going to take your money and tell you differently. Anyway, I am sure they will disagree with me. That’s fine, it’s all part of contest of ideas.

What do you regard to be better science and more adequate in understanding behaviour?

Science that recognizes and explores the role of the mind in behavior. For instance, a while ago we were discussing the way the long line worked. You said it worked by aversive conditioning the dog. I would say it worked by setting the dog up to make choices. You would say the aversive of being caught at the end of line is what motivates the dog, I disagree. Certainly it tells the dog he has made the wrong decision, but I see the motivation coming more from making the right decision to be the more powerful motivator.

And the choices we make that reward us, are far more powerful motivator than external rewards. Check out this video, nothing more than food for thought, but suggestive in ways that I find far more interesting than a behaviorist account of behavior.

Also check out this post on some recent discoveries in science on how the mind works; http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/great-expectations/

Edited January 14, 2012 by itsadogslife

[lovemesideways]

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils.

Out of curiosity LMSW, how long was your leash and why was the pup hitting the end of it so hard?

He was hitting it so hard because thats how he does everything in life. When he wanted to go somewhere, to someone, or a dog, or a leaf that happened to be on the ground he just ran for it. I would clip a leash on to take him out of his crate at 3am, he would wake up, try to sprint off, hit the end of the leash and spin in the air. Then land and try and do it again. If I held him on a short leash or by the collar he would just strain against it, coughing and choking. Enthusiasm, he has it. Lol. I didn't think of the consequences of it until I noticed his throat was tender and he was coughing.

This was varying leashes so not set length. Never a long line though.

I didn't mention attaining recall from corrections on a long line, what's recall got to do with loose leash walking

Oh also, just asked my vet about how many neck injuries she gets from collar abuse and she has had one in 15 years with a dog that fell off the back of a ute on too long a line to keep him inside the tray, other than that, your neck/throat injuries sound like bullshit to me given that every pet outlet sells choke chains in large supply, they would have been taken off the market years ago along with flat puppy collars in that case

What you are repeating is typical propoganda from the training faction who use alternative training methods, we have heard all them before by the truckload, what's new :rolleyes:

If you don't understand how what I said relates to loose leash walking thats ok. Hey can we see a video of you working with your dog? Or any dog for that matter :D

Bullshit? Ok :laugh: Scissors can kill someone, yet we sell them in supermarkets... Ive seen a dog injure himself with a harness, rubbed him to the point of raw bleeding under front legs, should they be taken off the market? :laugh:

Its not the tool, its how its used. I will never again have a flat collar and leash only on a high drive puppy (I used one of my lab and thats all hes ever worn, no issue). I ignored the warnings against it, and got to enjoy the vet bills.

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils. Talked to your vet did you? Wow you called them just for me :D Im so special!

What part of "I use corrections" don't you understand? I have no issue with them, so not sure what you mean by "alternative training methods"? Unless you mean using whatever method works for the individual dog. Seriously ... oh wait whats your name this time? Oh right, "Mace" ;)...

Edit: Nevermind about the video, just seen some and wow. Confirms everything. Not a bad looking GSD, shame about the training. Lack of drive too. :laugh:

What the hell are you on about LMSW, do you think because you have gone from a Lab to GSD pup you are now a full bottle on everything What would I want videos for, this is a discussion isn't it?

You are talking about abuse caused by trainer/handler error, it's not an across the board result of using particular methods and tools that all these terrible consequences happen, when you know how to use them properly, it doesn't happen and if you hurt your poor little pup with a flat collar, blame yourself not the damn collar :rolleyes:

The reason I wanted to see a video was to see if you actually own a dog, and can train it. Instead of just go on about how others are doing the wrong thing. I could google rockets for hours, and have a very convincing argument with someone about it online, but that doesn't mean I have any real idea of how they work or how to build one. Its a matter of being able to actually execute all these things you talk about.

I mention both my dogs because they are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, so they provide a great example of how what works perfectly for one dog, did not work for another. So saying that one method is the right method, or that every puppy can be trained with a simple flat collar and leash is not accurate.

I made a error, I used the wrong tool for a very enthusiastic puppy. That tool combined with that type of dog equaled injury. Which is why I would advise against that same tool for a young driven dog. So others can avoid making the mistake I made and having their puppy injure themselves. Just like I would never in a million years let a large dog have a small-medium rubber ball, after breaking my wrist retrieving one out of a large male GSDs throat. That doesn't mean balls are bad, just that others should take my experience into account and learn from it, without having to go through the same trauma themselves.

My "poor little pup" is great by the way, despite the obvious abuse he suffered :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:.

Out of curiosity, since obviously everything can be trained with a flat collar and a leash for a puppy, what would you have done differently?

Edited January 14, 2012 by lovemesideways

[Aidan3]

Posted by Aidan How do you explain the difference between respondents who had used 'confrontational' vs 'non-confrontational' techniques then?

I don’t need to. The study only discusses the drawbacks to using what it defines as ‘confrontational methods’ it does not address or even consider the benefits of such methods. It is of course unable to do so because the study is biased to present only those instances where it didn’t work. It is in the discussion of the results that the bias is clearly shown.

I think you need to re-read the method and results, you misunderstand what the study is investigating. Participants used a wide range of methods, significant differences in those using confrontational vs non-confrontational methods were found. This is important to understand. The study is biased, but not in the way that you think it is.

We're not talking about scientists. We're talking about science.

Aidan, science is what scientists do, it’s not something independent of scientists.

Follow this train of thought a little further.

No, I did not know that. I hope they plan on telling me before I finish my degree, but they've been strangely quiet on that fact so far.

And I am sure they will remain silent. LOL. They are hardly going to take your money and tell you differently.

I'm doing a double-major in Psychology and Neuroscience at a highly regarded university. I'm reasonably up to date with the different theories, and well acquainted with the scientific process, including the various debates in the philosophy of science. It's not that anyone could think that behaviourism explains all behaviour, but it has certainly not been discarded.

What do you regard to be better science and more adequate in understanding behaviour?

Science that recognizes and explores the role of the mind in behavior. For instance, a while ago we were discussing the way the long line worked. You said it worked by aversive conditioning the dog. I would say it worked by setting the dog up to make choices. You would say the aversive of being caught at the end of line is what motivates the dog, I disagree. Certainly it tells the dog he has made the wrong decision, but I see the motivation coming more from making the right decision to be the more powerful motivator.

That's a good start. How does that invalidate anything behaviourism says about aversive conditioning? It's very popular in comparative psychology to talk about these cognitive processes, and certainly we can now see more inside the "black box" that couldn't be investigated (empirically) in Skinner's day, but how does this "discard" behaviourism or anything that we know about aversive conditioning?

If we look at fMRI scans of people motivated by reward, or by escape from punishment, we see similar things happening in the brain. If we were to be completely reductionist, we might conclude that promise of reward and promise of escape from punishment are the same thing neurologically. But then we have to forget about everything we know about the differences in overt behaviour, and future behaviours. So even as neuroscientists, we can't discard behaviourism.

Behaviourism simply stems from objective observations of overt behaviours. It seems a bit silly to emphasise the role of emotion, brain chemistry, and cognition and then completely discard what the animal actually does.

Eta: you do make some valid points, I'm just taking the discussion a bit further. These are the sorts of things I think about a lot.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Aidan2

[Red Fox]

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils.

Out of curiosity LMSW, how long was your leash and why was the pup hitting the end of it so hard?

He was hitting it so hard because thats how he does everything in life. When he wanted to go somewhere, to someone, or a dog, or a leaf that happened to be on the ground he just ran for it. I would clip a leash on to take him out of his crate at 3am, he would wake up, try to sprint off, hit the end of the leash and spin in the air. Then land and try and do it again. If I held him on a short leash or by the collar he would just strain against it, coughing and choking. Enthusiasm, he has it. Lol. I didn't think of the consequences of it until I noticed his throat was tender and he was coughing.

This was varying leashes so not set length. Never a long line though.

Okay, I understand where you are coming from. However is that not a training problem as opposed to a training tool problem? ie the pup does not yet understand the limits of the leash and how to direct his energy.

Out of curiosity, since obviously everything can be trained with a flat collar and a leash for a puppy, what would you have done differently?

I realise this was not directed at me but relates to the above.

My Malinois pup reacted in a similar way first time on a leash and collar at 8 weeks - like a fish thrashing about on the end of a line LOL. So yes, I know where you are coming from.

My solution to that was to put her on a harness initially to move her about, but to do her obedience work using a flat collar and leash. She has fast learnt, in a reasonably gentle way, that the leash has a limit and how to channel all that enthusiasm back into something useful. At four months old she'll still pull like mad when she becomes overstimulated, but I can easily redirect that energy straight back into focus on me and/or heel-work on command.

[itsadogslife]

Aidan, I will start another thread in answer to your questions. I don't want to hijack this thread into a philosophical discussion on behaviorism. I will probably do it tomorrow or the next day when I have some time to consider it.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by SecretKei At four months old she'll still pull like mad when she becomes overstimulated, but I can easily redirect that energy straight back into focus on me and/or heel-work on command.

This is an interesting comment and probably marks a distinction in the way I (in more truthfully Koehler) approach training. In this situation of overstimulation I would not do anything to redirect attention back on me. The point is for the dog to learn self-control - for that to occur, the trainer must stay out of the picture and not interfere with the dog's learning.

Edited January 14, 2012 by itsadogslife

[lovemesideways]

Hes a working line GSD, he would run and hit the end of the leash at full throttle (this is at 8 weeks old), spin through the air by his neck, and then do the same thing again. This ended in him having highly irritated tonsils.

Out of curiosity LMSW, how long was your leash and why was the pup hitting the end of it so hard?

He was hitting it so hard because thats how he does everything in life. When he wanted to go somewhere, to someone, or a dog, or a leaf that happened to be on the ground he just ran for it. I would clip a leash on to take him out of his crate at 3am, he would wake up, try to sprint off, hit the end of the leash and spin in the air. Then land and try and do it again. If I held him on a short leash or by the collar he would just strain against it, coughing and choking. Enthusiasm, he has it. Lol. I didn't think of the consequences of it until I noticed his throat was tender and he was coughing.

This was varying leashes so not set length. Never a long line though.

Okay, I understand where you are coming from. However is that not a training problem as opposed to a training tool problem? ie the pup does not yet understand the limits of the leash and how to direct his energy.

I would consider it both personally. This was the incorrect tool for the puppy, and for the training being done.

Out of curiosity, since obviously everything can be trained with a flat collar and a leash for a puppy, what would you have done differently?

I realise this was not directed at me but relates to the above.

My Malinois pup reacted in a similar way first time on a leash and collar at 8 weeks - like a fish thrashing about on the end of a line LOL. So yes, I know where you are coming from.

My solution to that was to put her on a harness initially to move her about, but to do her obedience work using a flat collar and leash. She has fast learnt, in a reasonably gentle way, that the leash has a limit and how to channel all that enthusiasm back into something useful. At four months old she'll still pull like mad when she becomes overstimulated, but I can easily redirect that energy straight back into focus on me and/or heel-work on command.

Fish or land shark? I still have healing marks I swear :laugh:

What you did sounds very similar to what I did/am doing with Roscoe :) Hes on a harness with a long line attached. With other work done on a martingale and leash (I found that the martingale didn't tend to snap on the front of his throat the same way a flat collar did).

[Blonde_Phoenix]

Not being negative towards anyone, but the OP is about how one can walk a dog on a loose lead, but it appears to have gone way off track.