How To Stop Pulling On The Lead.

[Nekhbet]

Everyone should indeed find the best method for themselves and which they feel confident in using. Some of us simply dislike our own methods being constantly vilified and misrepresented.

It only becomes vilification when people come on and pronounce that method to be the be all and end all, or bag out other methods people use and 'tsk tsk I would NEVER dog that!' type comments. I don't think I would ever purely positively train a human aggressive, biting dog, and not have the option of a corrective aid to use. But if you think you can and it's working without the dogs quality of life and learning being compromised then hey, go for your like (and I use that situation purely as an example)

If I think the use of something outside the set parameters of what the person is limiting themselves to (be that trainer or handler) will work better, I'll make the suggestion. It comes down to take it or leave it.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Blonde Phoenix Out of so many posts Nekhbet's is one of the few that have offered any practical advice to address the OPs issue. Personally as an novice trainer I'd love to see examples of what has worked for a number of more expirenced trainers, so I can find the best 'fit' for my dog and I.

Certainly Phoenix. Here is a video of David Dikeman advertizing his "Command Performance". Dikeman is basically using the Koehler Method. This video shows the first twenty minutes of training on the line long. Try to ignore the cheesy advertising that starts the video, just go to 3.50 mins into the video where you will see a perfectly normal result after 20mins.

Of course, there will be those that will point out (correctly) that I am not an experienced trainer. I am however on other lists than this one. I know of over a half a dozen trainers with over 30+ years experience with with method that will tell you that it works with all dogs.

So take it for what it is worth and make up your own mind.

[Blonde_Phoenix]

Posted by Blonde Phoenix Out of so many posts Nekhbet's is one of the few that have offered any practical advice to address the OPs issue. Personally as an novice trainer I'd love to see examples of what has worked for a number of more expirenced trainers, so I can find the best 'fit' for my dog and I.

Certainly Phoenix. Here is a video of David Dikeman advertizing his "Command Performance". Dikeman is basically using the Koehler Method. This video shows the first twenty minutes of training on the line long. Try to ignore the cheesy advertising that starts the video, just go to 3.50 mins into the video where you will see a perfectly normal result after 20mins.

Of course, there will be those that will point out (correctly) that I am not an experienced trainer. I am however on other lists than this one. I know of over a half a dozen trainers with over 30+ years experience with with method that will tell you that it works with all dogs.

So take it for what it is worth and make up your own mind.

Thank you for the video, it looks like David gets some great results. I would love to see an explanation on how he achieves loose lead walking though.

What I personally struggle with is when my boy is over stimulated and in some ways my unwillingness to suppress it. I aknowledge it's proofing I need to work on, but honestly i find it hard in a full time working household. We are doing training with a club but sometimes you just want to take your dog for a walk without injury to yourself (in particular) or your dog, subsequently I have used 'tools' rightly or wrongly.

I find it hard and actually downright depressing sometimes when people paint a training technique in a negative light.

[lovemesideways]

Thank you for the video, it looks like David gets some great results. I would love to see an explanation on how he achieves loose lead walking though.

What I personally struggle with is when my boy is over stimulated and in some ways my unwillingness to suppress it. I aknowledge it's proofing I need to work on, but honestly i find it hard in a full time working household. We are doing training with a club but sometimes you just want to take your dog for a walk without injury to yourself (in particular) or your dog, subsequently I have used 'tools' rightly or wrongly.

I find it hard and actually downright depressing sometimes when people paint a training technique in a negative light.

I'll explain his technique too you.

You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction.

Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction.

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

[Nekhbet]

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

I think the aim was efficiency and reliability ... he did train all the Disney dogs for movies ... people recoil a little when you tell them that :laugh:

[itsadogslife]

Posted lovemesideways I'll explain his technique too you.

You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction.

Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction.

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

You see Nekhbet, one only has to mention the name Koehler and you get this nonsense. The above bears little relation to the Koehler long line method.

I make a note for anyone reading the above: do not use a prong collar for long line work. The long line work is done with a check chain.

[RubyStar]

Pretty sure lmsw doesn't use the clicker :). Most of the people on this thread aren't purely positive trainers anyway.

Using a clicker doesn't automatically make someone a "purely positive trainer". It's just one of many training tools that doesn't have to be used exclusively

[lovemesideways]

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

I think the aim was efficiency and reliability ... he did train all the Disney dogs for movies ... people recoil a little when you tell them that :laugh:

hah thats like watching some of the old western movies, and knowing the way they make the horses fall for the fake gun shots is by stringing rope across the road.

What do you think of the reliability in the long run? There is no doubt its very efficient, very few dogs wont respond to a few heavy corrections!

[lovemesideways]

Posted lovemesideways I'll explain his technique too you.

You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction.

Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction.

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

You see Nekhbet, one only has to mention the name Koehler and you get this nonsense. The above bears little relation to the Koehler long line method.

I make a note for anyone reading the above: do not use a prong collar for long line work. The long line work is done with a check chain.

Leerburg uses a prong on a long line. Whats wrong with a prong on a long line?

I was explaining the video. Not Koehler.

Edited January 13, 2012 by lovemesideways

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Blonde Phoenix

Thank you for the video, it looks like David gets some great results. I would love to see an explanation on how he achieves loose lead walking though.

What I personally struggle with is when my boy is over stimulated and in some ways my unwillingness to suppress it. I aknowledge it's proofing I need to work on, but honestly i find it hard in a full time working household. We are doing training with a club but sometimes you just want to take your dog for a walk without injury to yourself (in particular) or your dog, subsequently I have used 'tools' rightly or wrongly.

I find it hard and actually downright depressing sometimes when people paint a training technique in a negative light.

The method is explained in the Koehler Method of Dog Training available at Amazon. David Dikeman also has a DVD on sale, google David Dikeman Command Performance. The method Dikeman uses is basically a fairly straight forward copy of Koehler. I would advise you to get the book for the best results. The DVD can serve as a useful reference.

I must warn you however, that you need to put in the work to get the results. If you don't have the time you wont see the same results. The long line method however takes about a week to get something like a loose lead walk.

For a quicker result (if loose lead walking is all you want) then you might be better off seeking a professional trainer. But still, either way you need to put in the work to get the results.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by lovemesideways Leerburg uses a prong on a long line. Whats wrong with a prong on a long line?

I don't know Leerburg's procedure. Koehler uses the check chain - he experimented with many things in developing the method including the prong collar, he choose the check chain because it proved itself to get the best results for the average person.

If you want to use the prong collar, then use the Leerburg method or some other method that has been specially developed for its use.

Posted by lovemesideways I was explaining the video. Not Koehler.

No you weren't. You said:

Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again.

There was no about turns in the video, the woman simply held the line. The force of the correction is determined by the dog. Only after preceeding this way for a full three days will you introduce about turns on the fourth day.

[Kavik]

I was just looking at that dog's tongue by the end of the video . . .

[Aidan3]

I know of over a half a dozen trainers with over 30+ years experience with with method that will tell you that it works with all dogs.

Clicker training works with all dogs too. The principles remain the same, how the dog and owner respond, and how the environment serves them changes.

If I could give you a piece of very valuable advice - be less credulous. Everyone is an expert on the internet. Anyone can get testimonials.

[mace]

Thank you for the video, it looks like David gets some great results. I would love to see an explanation on how he achieves loose lead walking though.

What I personally struggle with is when my boy is over stimulated and in some ways my unwillingness to suppress it. I aknowledge it's proofing I need to work on, but honestly i find it hard in a full time working household. We are doing training with a club but sometimes you just want to take your dog for a walk without injury to yourself (in particular) or your dog, subsequently I have used 'tools' rightly or wrongly.

I find it hard and actually downright depressing sometimes when people paint a training technique in a negative light.

I'll explain his technique too you.

You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction.

Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction.

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

That's not how you train on the long line though LMSW? When you start off with a pup, you use a flat collar and the long line attached is to get the pups attention when it becomes distracted from the game of follow me which is reinforced with rewards when the pup is in position. There is a corrective action on the line on change of direction and you correct the pup as hard as need be to get attention and tell the pup, "hey you are going the wrong way", you DON'T rip it's head off and shut the pup down, if that happens it's a trainer error not a fault of the method, only an idiot would do what you described. The same with an adolecent dog, you correct as hard as need be, if the dog is shutting down you are doing it wrong, but what I can tell you, if you train a pup properly in this method, you don't need prong collars or any of that crap down the track to uphold a loose leash walk, in fact you don't even need a leash which is what the method was designed to achieve, off leash reliability.

The method as written by Koehler has a harshness about it I agree, but you use some common sense, a bit like treat trainers jamming so many treats down a dogs throat it throws up is just as stupid as shutting a dog down with massive corrections, every method can be abused and the skill is to apply it accordingly.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan If I could give you a piece of very valuable advice - be less credulous. Everyone is an expert on the internet. Anyone can get testimonials.

Aidan what gives or speaks with authority for each of us is different. For many people in regards to dog training science speaks with authority. I could say the same thing to those people, be a little less credulous.

This is not having a dig, just noting that the lines of authority speak differently to different people.

I am a person who is impressed by real world experience, not science when it comes to dog training.

[Aidan3]

Posted by Aidan If I could give you a piece of very valuable advice - be less credulous. Everyone is an expert on the internet. Anyone can get testimonials.

Aidan what gives or speaks with authority for each of us is different. For many people in regards to dog training science speaks with authority. I could say the same thing to those people, be a little less credulous.

This is not having a dig, just noting that the lines of authority speak differently to different people.

I am a person who is impressed by real world experience, not science when it comes to dog training.

We've had this discussion, science is real world experience. The distinction is that in science we deliberately try to knock down our hypotheses.

Nevertheless, my mentor has been training dogs for over 40 years and has titles in every sport available in Canada, coaching others to the highest levels, and trains her own service dogs (she has an acquired brain injury). Real world experience? For sure. Not to discount my own experience, but that's pretty substantial by anyone's measure.

[itsadogslife]

We've had this discussion, science is real world experience. The distinction is that in science we deliberately try to knock down our hypotheses.

In the real world, you don't need to try and knock down your hypotheses - life will do it for you.

I have had people quote this 'scientific study' to me as evidence showing that positive methods get better results than aversives. You can find it here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/34153889/Surveyof-ConfrontationalandNonconfrontationalTrainingMethodsinClientDogsShowingUndesiredBehaviors

Honestly, this kind of stuff is high school level and shows an inherent bias that these kinds of studies almost always demonstrate. Honestly I have not read a scientific study on dog training that has held up to any kind of scrutiny.

If you have any, I am quite happy to read them.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan Nevertheless, my mentor has been training dogs for over 40 years and has titles in every sport available in Canada, coaching others to the highest levels, and trains her own service dogs (she has an acquired brain injury). Real world experience? For sure. Not to discount my own experience, but that's pretty substantial by anyone's measure.

Yes it is. And learning off someone like that with real world experience is the best kind of learning a person can get.

[Aidan3]

Honestly, this kind of stuff is high school level and shows an inherent bias that these kinds of studies almost always demonstrate. Honestly I have not read a scientific study on dog training that has held up to any kind of scrutiny.

Unfortunately what you will find is that any study with good external validity (that is, conducted in the "real world" outside of the laboratory) will have something wrong with it. How can we see what a broad cross-section of the dog owning public does without a survey? How can we design a survey that answers questions that we're interested in without inherent bias? It is very difficult.

This is why the scientific process does not rely on any one method of data collection. If you want to get rid of bias or demand characteristics, you design an experiment. If you want to see how it works in the outside world (the laboratory is no less "real" than the outside world), you use observational methods. Put the two together and you start to form a picture.

Unfortunately, outside of science we have proven to be extraordinarily poor at rejecting false claims. I cannot stress that enough. We will believe almost anything unless we have some objective measure, and then we will still miss what we're not measuring. The same is true of science, but at least science is under close, methodical scrutiny. This is why I go to a doctor instead of a faith-healer, for example.

In the real world, you don't need to try and knock down your hypotheses - life will do it for you.

This is true to some extent. There aren't many people still using Koehler, for e.g (I'm stirring, kinda). But nothing knocks a hypothesis down like objective, verifiable, repeatable data. The survey you linked to above has been repeated with different questions, not many times but the results repeat. The whole reason it was done was because behavioural science (from the lab and the real world) lead animal behaviourists to make certain predictions about dog training based on other data.

Science is a process. You can never take one study and reject it as if it's the only piece in the puzzle, because this is never true. I could be quite critical of Herron et al for showing a clear bias in the introduction and not revealing a proper rationale for the study.

[lovemesideways]

Thank you for the video, it looks like David gets some great results. I would love to see an explanation on how he achieves loose lead walking though.

What I personally struggle with is when my boy is over stimulated and in some ways my unwillingness to suppress it. I aknowledge it's proofing I need to work on, but honestly i find it hard in a full time working household. We are doing training with a club but sometimes you just want to take your dog for a walk without injury to yourself (in particular) or your dog, subsequently I have used 'tools' rightly or wrongly.

I find it hard and actually downright depressing sometimes when people paint a training technique in a negative light.

I'll explain his technique too you.

You need a check chain or prong, and a long line. Let the dog go, wait till they are walking away from you and not paying attention, and correct as hard as you can when they get to the end of the line. Walk the other way, wait till dog isn't paying attention and gets to the end of the line, turn and correct again. Dog learns very quickly to pay attention to the line or they get a correction.

Gradually shorten the line. Correct them enough times, you will have a panting slinking dog who will follow your every move for fear of a correction. Drop the line. The reason you have a long line is so that when the dog tries to venture off you can quickly pick up the line and hit them with another correction.

Thats basically it. Its very fast and effective, but mentally its damaging for your dog, and long term it isn't the greatest.

That's not how you train on the long line though LMSW? When you start off with a pup, you use a flat collar and the long line attached is to get the pups attention when it becomes distracted from the game of follow me which is reinforced with rewards when the pup is in position. There is a corrective action on the line on change of direction and you correct the pup as hard as need be to get attention and tell the pup, "hey you are going the wrong way", you DON'T rip it's head off and shut the pup down, if that happens it's a trainer error not a fault of the method, only an idiot would do what you described. The same with an adolecent dog, you correct as hard as need be, if the dog is shutting down you are doing it wrong, but what I can tell you, if you train a pup properly in this method, you don't need prong collars or any of that crap down the track to uphold a loose leash walk, in fact you don't even need a leash which is what the method was designed to achieve, off leash reliability.

The method as written by Koehler has a harshness about it I agree, but you use some common sense, a bit like treat trainers jamming so many treats down a dogs throat it throws up is just as stupid as shutting a dog down with massive corrections, every method can be abused and the skill is to apply it accordingly.

:laugh:

Seriously?

Yes I know that's not how you train on a long long. My Lab has 100% recall (and I do mean 100%) and I never needed to correct him on a long line once in his life, my GSD is going the same way too. No long line corrections needed so obviously I'm doing something right. I also wouldn't correct a puppy on a long line with a flat collar anyway. Do you know what sort of damage that can do? I used a flat collar on my GSD for the first 2 weeks I had him, he spent 3 weeks with no collar or pressure on his throat allowed due to the damage he had done himself with a flat collar. Not fun!

I was explaining the "miracle" as shown in the video. A adult dog, generally with a history of success in pulling, and a high level of tolerance to pain on his neck. That's why you need a check chain, prong collar or E Collar. Don Sullivan does the same thing (though he has his own shoddy plastic prong collar called a "command collar"), Ed Frawley does the same thing (though he judges the level of correction based on the dog). Its not exactly a unique method. I was taught it in a class I took at a very well respected organisation, using a check chain.

Correct pretty much any dog hard enough and you'll get a very fast result that looks really amazing on camera. That is if you don't know the body language of a dog in distress... (The Dog Whisperer anyone? ;) )