wuffles Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 If you read what I wrote instead of avoiding my prong collar question with an unrelated response My response was directly related. As you very well know from your long history of arguments here under various user names I do not use prong collars myself. K9Pro is also well aware of this, and he is more interested in finding help for dogs owners than forcing some petty political/moral argument onto them. Every trainer who refers to me does so because they have come to expect that I will actually train the dog rather than bang on about which tool is the best to do it with. Just as I don't care if they use a prong collar, they don't care if I don't. The proof is in the pudding, everything else is internet waffle. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 If you read what I wrote instead of avoiding my prong collar question with an unrelated response My response was directly related. As you very well know from your long history of arguments here under various user names I do not use prong collars myself. K9Pro is also well aware of this, and he is more interested in finding help for dogs owners than forcing some petty political/moral argument onto them. Every trainer who refers to me does so because they have come to expect that I will actually train the dog rather than bang on about which tool is the best to do it with. Just as I don't care if they use a prong collar, they don't care if I don't. The proof is in the pudding, everything else is internet waffle. Yes or no would have been a sufficient answer Adian without all the waffle attached to it :laugh: Personally I don't care if you use prong collars or not, it's just nice to know how many tools trainers have in their box, obviously yours is limited in that case then ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 If you read what I wrote instead of avoiding my prong collar question with an unrelated response My response was directly related. As you very well know from your long history of arguments here under various user names I do not use prong collars myself. K9Pro is also well aware of this, and he is more interested in finding help for dogs owners than forcing some petty political/moral argument onto them. Every trainer who refers to me does so because they have come to expect that I will actually train the dog rather than bang on about which tool is the best to do it with. Just as I don't care if they use a prong collar, they don't care if I don't. The proof is in the pudding, everything else is internet waffle. Yes or no would have been a sufficient answer Adian without all the waffle attached to it :laugh: Personally I don't care if you use prong collars or not, it's just nice to know how many tools trainers have in their box, obviously yours is limited in that case then ;) I'll try not to lose any sleep over my limited tool box. "If it weren't for these talons instead of fingers, I would be able to use a prong - why was I born with these hideous talons???!?!?!" :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Posted by Aidan If the owner does their homework and has other people to practise with, 8 weeks should get pleasing results. Then that's a nice result then, something worth paying for. Pity said owner of dog didn't come to you first, instead of spending 3 years unsuccessfully trying to train a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Posted by Aidan If the owner does their homework and has other people to practise with, 8 weeks should get pleasing results. Then that's a nice result then, something worth paying for. Pity said owner of dog didn't come to you first, instead of spending 3 years unsuccessfully trying to train a dog. Thank you. Said owner actually came to me for 4 weeks from memory. But her dog was also well outside the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy21 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 But then I wouldn't have learned all I have learned on my journey. Sure I may have had a dog that walked on a loose leash, but we wouldn't have done half the other things we have, or met the people/dogs we have met, or decided which tools and methods suit us and which don't. We would never have started clicker training which we really enjoy, nor been exposed to a real variety of techniques. Absolutely....it would have been great to have found a fantastic trainer first off. But to be honest - we didn't even know we needed one initially. And yes - an inspiring trainer is a great asset. I certainly walked away from Aidan's classes feeling ready to take on the worst dog in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 What about someone with physical impairments..... If they can't get the tool on the dog it doesn't matter how well it works for the dog it doesn't work for the handler. A good trainer does push their clients, but not beyond their abilities I used to provide head collars in these cases :) The dogs were trained before being provided (therapy dogs) but because of fairly severe lack of strength/balance etc owners needed to be able to feel comfortable and retain control/communication thru the leash, as well as vocally .When out walking, the headcollars allowed them to do this . Yup and I am sure that it would have been pointless to use something that the owner was not confident with. Which you would have only know through talking to your client, not preaching them about the right tool for their dog, regardless of their on physical (and mental) state . A good trainer should definitely be inspiring :) Totally agree! And an inspiring trainer will get better owner compliance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 nah Aidan they should use the Koehler method because it works on all dogs regardless :) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yup and I am sure that it would have been pointless to use something that the owner was not confident with. Which you would have only know through talking to your client, not preaching them about the right tool for their dog, regardless of their on physical (and mental) state There are a lot of things people lack confidence in from owning a dog, driving a car to bringing home a new baby, it's natural to be cautious and lack confidence in the unknown and it's a good instructors job to change that and build confidence IMHO. My driving instructor didn't tell me to catch a bus instead of learning to drive because I initially lacked confidence in a tool of transport?. A good dog training instructor should have the ability to apply what ever tools are best for the particular dog and teach the owner how to use them correctly and build the confidence up. Unless a trainer can demonstrate and explain the various tools available, they can't determine what tools the client can master anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Back to the front attach harness discussion we were having earlier - someone mentioned that I should put a regular collar back on my dog and see what happens. Well, yesterday I wanted to pop out to the front door and walk the 7m or so to retrieve the mail. I normally place a lightweight slip lead on Ziva that I keep near the front door and then when we get outside she charges like she's a sled dog. However yesterday, we both walked nice and casually with a loose lead, got the mail and walked back inside Disclaimer - I have not done any LLW training with the slip lead, we've just done walking with her front attach harness around the neighbourhood for the last 2 weeks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) nah Aidan they should use the Koehler method because it works on all dogs regardless :) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You laugh at Keohler LMSW then you ask questions like this: Thanks for the reply, very interesting. And don't worry, not stepping on anyones toes ! Its not advice for me to follow specifically, just a hypothetical to get another opinion on the difference in training when the standard just does not work! From someone who owns working dogs! (Getting a working line breed certainly changes your perspective I was a bit of a cocky shit before. Lol..) You should be able to train anything with a clicker and treat hey? Edited January 12, 2012 by mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Pretty sure lmsw doesn't use the clicker :). Most of the people on this thread aren't purely positive trainers anyway. My comment was sarcastic and I take it back - it doesn't contribute to the debate. I'm sure you'll retract yours too :). These derailings seem to happen more frequently these days, the OP just wanted to know how to stop her dog from pulling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blonde_Phoenix Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I was so arrogant; I used to have debates with my sister (who is very into dog sports) about the use of tools and how I believed they were used because people were not willing or able to work on establishing solid fundamentals. Yes I could teach any dog loose lead walking with just a flat collar (which I’d proven multiple times) then I got my current boy . I struggled with the decision but I was not getting where I wanted to, so I used a da da da HALTI daaaa!!!! ;) It has been incredibly successful for us. I gave me the confidence to work on his training without the fear of being pulled off my feet or having to go skiing for the first 200m of our walk and it helped him to settle and focus quickly. We only worked with the halti for about four weeks, we have now moved on to working in a martingale. The dragging has stopped completely and his reaction to distractions has been greatly reduced, in general he will return to my side with only a verbal command. Walks have become a pleasure and I’ve come away with a much more open mind. Yes I’m sure there are other ‘more correct’ techniques I could have used, but I think a big part (and one of the best parts) of the dog training is the trying different things and finding what clicks for you. I’m sure even the ‘experts’ need to think outside the box sometimes. I think it’s important that people understand the purpose and limitations of any tools they might choose to use. For some being able to take their dog on a walk without having their arm ripped out of its socket is enough and if that means always walking their dog on a harness or halti I think that’s fine. Not everyone has the same expectation when it comes to what they want out of their dog and even if expectations are the same there is certainly more than one way to get there. Whitka, I’m interested to hear how you have been going with the tips from Nekhbet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 nah Aidan they should use the Koehler method because it works on all dogs regardless :) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You laugh at Keohler LMSW then you ask questions like this: Thanks for the reply, very interesting. And don't worry, not stepping on anyones toes ! Its not advice for me to follow specifically, just a hypothetical to get another opinion on the difference in training when the standard just does not work! From someone who owns working dogs! (Getting a working line breed certainly changes your perspective I was a bit of a cocky shit before. Lol..) You should be able to train anything with a clicker and treat hey? Lol? How was what you quoted a question? Yes I'm laughing at the Koehler method, due to another thread were it was repeated how a dog trained with that method would be perfect by 10 weeks old. Despite me pulling out one of my books and pointing out some of the incredibly out dated methods that koehler suggested (Such as beating a 8 week old puppy with the end of a leash if he made noise), and many of the other trainers on here giving various examples as to how the advances in training methodology have allowed us to move forward and use not only more humane methods of training (I have no issues with correction, as long as the dog actually understands why he is getting a correction. Not Sit *correct* sit *correct* sit *correct* Sit *dog sits* good dog.), but faster and more effective methods that give us a better trained, happier and more driven dog. :) Thats why its a funny comment. And My comment about the standard not working, was related to nekhbets comment on giving a young dog small correction on a flat collar. Try and correct my boy on a flat collar, go ahead. He just laughs. Same as a martingale. That is what I meant by the standard. I have had to be very smart and creative with my boy, willing to throw out the old standards and try new things. Maybe you should learn something about who you're commenting on before making stupid statements like "You should be able to train anything with a clicker and treat hey? ". Though hey, it gives the rest of us a good laugh :laugh: :laugh: (Though I do love my clicker and treats, they're a great tool to use ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Pretty sure lmsw doesn't use the clicker :). Most of the people on this thread aren't purely positive trainers anyway. My comment was sarcastic and I take it back - it doesn't contribute to the debate. I'm sure you'll retract yours too :). These derailings seem to happen more frequently these days, the OP just wanted to know how to stop her dog from pulling! They seem to be by the same person as well............. Though the usernames change so it must be someone different right? ;) I do use a clicker btw :D! (Just not exclusively) Shaping is loads of fun. Love watching Roscoes brain tick as he tries to figure things out :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think the point of all of these threads that end up imploding is that there is not a standard across the board for all dogs. Whatever is right for that dog and does no harm, then use it. I don't see why any of these threads should turn into an argument about the better method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Posted by lovemesideways(I have no issues with correction, as long as the dog actually understands why he is getting a correction. Not Sit *correct* sit *correct* sit *correct* Sit *dog sits* good dog.) The Koehler method for teaching the sit involves gently placing the sit with approx 150 repetitions over four days in as many different locations as you can find. Then and only then, will corrections be given for failure to sit. Every exercise Koehler teaches follows this same pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Posted Nekhbet I think the point of all of these threads that end up imploding is that there is not a standard across the board for all dogs. Whatever is right for that dog and does no harm, then use it. I don't see why any of these threads should turn into an argument about the better method. Everyone should indeed find the best method for themselves and which they feel confident in using. Some of us simply dislike our own methods being constantly vilified and misrepresented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Posted by lovemesideways(I have no issues with correction, as long as the dog actually understands why he is getting a correction. Not Sit *correct* sit *correct* sit *correct* Sit *dog sits* good dog.) The Koehler method for teaching the sit involves gently placing the sit with approx 150 repetitions over four days in as many different locations as you can find. Then and only then, will corrections be given for failure to sit. Every exercise Koehler teaches follows this same pattern. Never said that was the Koehler method? That was just a example of shoddy corrections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blonde_Phoenix Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think the point of all of these threads that end up imploding is that there is not a standard across the board for all dogs. Whatever is right for that dog and does no harm, then use it. I don't see why any of these threads should turn into an argument about the better method. Agree completely. Out of so many posts Nekhbet's is one of the few that have offered any practical advice to address the OPs issue. Personally as an novice trainer I'd love to see examples of what has worked for a number of more expirenced trainers, so I can find the best 'fit' for my dog and I. When it comes to my dog I'm not interested in politics, I deal with that too much in my day job ;) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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